Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin - Where Are Ü Now That We Need Ya? Edition

[nhlfan9191]

Did Pavel Barber score 53 points last year? Drouin is 4 years younger than Panarin, 3 and half if you want, at Drouin's age Panarin was still in the KHL.

Who cares? I’ve seen this argument made a few times for players. We didn’t see Panarin at this level until he was 24/25? We have a resume on Drouin already. I don’t know what Panarin’s backstory was in Russia, but I think it’s safe to assume he was growing, as opposed to being at a standstill or regressing like Drouin has here.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If he was consistently used with 4th liners/defensive grinders/etc... then you'd have a point but that's not the case. He was used with offensive players and still struggled. He should be making the players around him better, turning the 40 point guy into a 50 point guy, the 50 point guy into a 60 point guy, and so on. Just look back to the Koivu years, we would play no name players and he would turn them into 20-30 goal scorers. Drouin has the talent to do the same thing but he doesn't work hard enough and worse he doesn't work smart enough.

Drouin did produce to some degree playing with Domi and Shaw. His 20 game sample size where he really struggled was mostly with Kotkaniemi or Weal.

This more about playing with matured skilled players vs a guy like Kotkaniemi who has skill but is not a matured NHL center.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who cares? I’ve seen this argument made a few times for players. We didn’t see Panarin at this level until he was 24/25? We have a resume on Drouin already. I don’t know what Panarin’s backstory was in Russia, but I think it’s safe to assume he was growing, as opposed to being at a standstill or regressing like Drouin has here.

Drouin is not regressing. He is improving but it's minuscule at this stage. The skill and skating is there and I will say it for the 100th time... he needs to play with a top 2C like Domi but Domi is also learning how to play center and with the two of them focusing on offense only, there is risks.

Bookmark it... I bet you Drouin is a 70-80 pts player once our young centers mature into top 2C's

 

[FF de Mars]

Who cares? I’ve seen this argument made a few times for players. We didn’t see Panarin at this level until he was 24/25? We have a resume on Drouin already. I don’t know what Panarin’s backstory was in Russia, but I think it’s safe to assume he was growing, as opposed to being at a standstill or regressing like Drouin has here.

I care, it proves the possibility of Drouin blossoming; because it happened before. I don't believe, I know! How many times do you see people dealing with personal problems? Very often. Many of them regress; as you need to want to change in order to change; but, it still lives in the kingdom of possible. For example, how many alcoholics stoped drinking? It happens more often than you think; and, when it does, it makes everyone around better. I'm not saying Drouin is an alcoholic, I don't follow his personal life. From what I've seen during his interviews, Drouin seems like he's thorned apart by anxiety, it was written on his face, if I read it correctly, he looked like a deer paralysed by car lights on the middle of the highway. The Habs have psychologists, he is surrounded by professionals, that's why I'd rather play lotto a last time.

 

[Sorinth]

I think the drop, at least in production from Drouin to Lehkonen, is larger then you think.

I like Lehkonen but his career high in points is 31pts, he'd have to pretty much double that production just to eclipse what Drouin did during a season where he went bone-dry the last 25 games.

I think with a top-6 role and the extra PP time Lehkonen could get 40ish. So yeah it's a big drop in production compared to Drouin, and Lehkonen's better defensive play isn't going to make up for it either.

But the drop in level of play from Klefbom to Kulak is even bigger. Especially since it's far from certain Kulak is a legitimate NHL player and not an AHL who had a great year.

 

[Sorinth]

Oh, no argument that Koivu helped him, but Zednik was able to hit 20 goals without him.

In my original post that's what I said, he took 20 goal scorers and made them 30 goal scorers

 

[417]

I think with a top-6 role and the extra PP time Lehkonen could get 40ish. So yeah it's a big drop in production compared to Drouin, and Lehkonen's better defensive play isn't going to make up for it either.

But the drop in level of play from Klefbom to Kulak is even bigger. Especially since it's far from certain Kulak is a legitimate NHL player and not an AHL who had a great year.

Nothing I saw in his game last year indicated that this was an AHL'er having a great year.

In fact, I find he's pretty underrated by here.

Meanwhile, I don't find Klefbom has taken the next step in his game but that may also be the Oilers affect.

 

[Guns n Roses]

I know P’tit David is not the most popular player here but it’s insulting to compare him to a slacker like Drouin.

DesHarnais’ heart >>>>> Drouin’s heart

 

[Milhouse40]

Fair enough...

From my perspective, I want the team to improving by adding more talent...not by swapping it in and out.

I'm ok with trading Drouin, I just don't think that time is now...unless you're going to get a clear upgrade at LHD

And I just don't think the gap between Klefbom and Mete + Kulak.

Is worth Jonathan Drouin.

The plan would be to trade Drouin for a clear upgrade on LHD....and pretty much nothing else.
It's not about trading him for the sake of trading him (for me at least)

As for the timing, it's dangerous i admit it....but if he's not having a good season next year and continue where he left this season, then forget about trading him for anything of value.

As for the gap...Klefbom was the most used player last year in Edmonton with close to 24:00 a game and the most used and productive D on the PP in EDM. Mete and Kulak played less than 18:00 a game and neither can run a PP unit. And Klefbom with his 167 shots on goals has the same total than Mete and Kulak together.

And never forget the Habs have cap space and enough to add another forward on that market.
You got Poehling -Suzuki in the pipe + Money available for a forward UFA....so i don't think we would miss Drouin's 37 ES points that much.

 

[FF de Mars]

DesHarnais’ heart >>>>> Drouin’s heart

You confound heart and the way both differently catalyse their despair. DD's despair goes outwards while Drouin's goes inwards. If you like rap I suggest you listen to Jeru da damaja, in his most popular song he makes despair into a character. If you like to read I suggest Kierkegaard.

 

[Runner77]

DesHarnais’ heart >>>>> Drouin’s heart

Artichoke heart >>>>> Drouin’s heart

 

[nhlfan9191]

Drouin is not regressing. He is improving but it's minuscule at this stage. The skill and skating is there and I will say it for the 100th time... he needs to play with a top 2C like Domi but Domi is also learning how to play center and with the two of them focusing on offense only, there is risks.

Bookmark it... I bet you Drouin is a 70-80 pts player once our young centers mature into top 2C's

You don’t give up top 10 draft picks in speciality positions for players who can’t do **** by themselves. What you’re saying is wait for another player who can make him better. He should have the talent to make himself better by himself. So why should I expect to wait? He should just do it. This “he’s only 22, 23, 24, 25” stuff makes you sound like his mother. He’s an adult athlete now. He needs to mature up or get the **** out. Tired of excuses with this guy. His awful play down the stretch very well cost us the playoffs. And before you bring up the argument I want better draft picks, we were in way to deep anyways by the time he started to slump. We weren’t getting good draft positioning regardless.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The plan would be to trade Drouin for a clear upgrade on LHD....and pretty much nothing else.
It's not about trading him for the sake of trading him (for me at least)

As for the timing, it's dangerous i admit it....but if he's not having a good season next year and continue where he left this season, then forget about trading him for anything of value.

As for the gap...Klefbom was the most used player last year in Edmonton with close to 24:00 a game and the most used and productive D on the PP in EDM. Mete and Kulak played less than 18:00 a game and neither can run a PP unit. And Klefbom with his 167 shots on goals has the same total than Mete and Kulak together.

And never forget the Habs have cap space and enough to add another forward on that market.
You got Poehling -Suzuki in the pipe + Money available for a forward UFA....so i don't think we would miss Drouin's 37 ES points that much.

I doubt in any situation (expect injuries), that Drouin slips to below 50 pts potential. Very possible if he is taken off the PP though which I doubt. In terms of risks in trading him, Drouin's base is 50+ pts IMO. The risks are if we trade him and he turns into a pt/game winger playing with better top 2 centers which is very possible. We would be trading him right before his prime years so we need to be careful with it.

If a team wants to give us another player with upside like Drouin, I'm down for a trade. However, I would be very careful with trading him for just 50 pts value.

 

[Milhouse40]

What do you mean Vegas didn't have the horses? They had the horses. Drouin is a lumping horse, sure, but it's better than no horse at all. Trade him for Girard, fine; but trade him for another horse. Thing is stables leaguewide are empty, so much you overpay for horses in july. You are making a mistake trading Drouin for the sake of it.

As i said earlier, i'm not on the bandwagon of trading him for the sake of it.....but to improve the LHD cause if we don't improve the LHD, there's no chance of doing anything now and in the future cause the reality is that we don't have ANYTHING in the pipes for another 3 to 4 years on the left side of the D and there's nobody in the UFA market.....so the only way to improve that part is to trade someone and our position of strenght is on the wing.

So in my book...it's either Gallagher, Drouin, Suzuki or Tatar that must be sacrifice to get a good top 4 D.
My choice is easy considering their play and contract and work ethics. It's Drouin.

 

[Milhouse40]

I doubt in any situation (expect injuries), that Drouin slips to below 50 pts potential. Very possible if he is taken off the PP though which I doubt.

But if he stays on the 3rd line, he won't produce at 50 points.
In the last 2 years, he played with a lot of players and the only time he was actually producing well it's with Domi and nobody else. That's a very dangerous situation. Once he got off that line, he was simply underwhelming to say the least

 

[Habs Halifax]

You don’t give up top 10 draft picks in speciality positions for players who can’t do **** by themselves. What you’re saying is wait for another player who can make him better. He should have the talent to make himself better by himself. So why should I expect to wait? He should just do it. This “he’s only 22, 23, 24, 25” stuff makes you sound like his mother. He’s an adult athlete now. He needs to mature up or get the **** out. Tired of excuses with this guy. His awful play down the stretch very well cost us the playoffs. And before you bring up the argument I want better draft picks, we were in way to deep anyways by the time he started to slump. We weren’t getting good draft positioning regardless.

There are very few players that carry a line in the NHL today. Most top 6 talent needs to play with top 6 talent and also with legit top 2C's. Domi is the only fit and he is learning how to play center.

 

[Habs Halifax]

But if he stays on the 3rd line, he won't produce at 50 points.
In the last 2 years, he played with a lot of players and the only time he was actually producing well it's with Domi and nobody else. That's a very dangerous situation. Once he got off that line, he was simply underwhelming to say the least

Depends on PP time and if the 3rd line is the 2nd line on any given night. Ice time changes from game to game.

Kotkaniemi had 34 pts in 79 games playing 3rd line minutes with minimal PP time and in his first season as a 18 year old. He is only 16 pts off that pace and could of easily reach 50 pts if he had more PP time and a few of those goal posts shots went in throughout the year. Not to mentioned Armia and Lehkonen not finishing as well.

 

[FF de Mars]

As i said earlier, i'm not on the bandwagon of trading him for the sake of it.....but to improve the LHD cause if we don't improve the LHD, there's no chance of doing anything now and in the future cause the reality is that we don't have ANYTHING in the pipes for another 3 to 4 years on the left side of the D and there's nobody in the UFA market.....so the only way to improve that part is to trade someone and our position of strenght is on the wing.

So in my book...it's either Gallagher, Drouin, Suzuki or Tatar that must be sacrifice to get a good top 4 D.
My choice is easy considering their play and contract and work ethics. It's Drouin.

I really wish Romanov was a year closer, it would be more convenient. You are right, there has been a gap at LD ever since Alzner. Patience is the best answer, the Habs are not contenders. People talk about parity; well, it goes both ways : parity means other teams improve too.

 

[nhlfan9191]

There are very few players that carry a line in the NHL today. Most top 6 talent needs to play with top 6 talent and also with legit top 2C's. Domi is the only fit and he is learning how to play center.

He was moved away from Domi because it was no longer working. It has nothing to do with Domi “learning the position.” That’s an excuse. It has to do with chemistry. Which Drouin seems to struggle to find with anyone.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He was moved away from Domi because it was no longer working. It has nothing to do with Domi “learning the position.” That’s an excuse. It has to do with chemistry. Which Drouin seems to struggle to find with anyone.

Correct, the 20 game struggle overlapped time with Domi and he was then moved down. It doesn't take away what he did when they were producing. These kids are still learning and have not reached their prime years yet.

I disagree it has nothing to do with Domi learning how to play center. I think there is a concern there with Julien to some degree.

This is not about pumping up his tires, it's more about not deflating them beyond what it is.

 

[Milhouse40]

I really wish Romanov was a year closer, it would be more convenient. You are right, there has been a gap at LD ever since Alzner. Patience is the best answer, the Habs are not contenders. People talk about parity; well, it goes both ways : parity means other teams improve too.

Even if Romanov was a year closer....doesn't change the fact that most D needs another 2-3 years once they are in the league in order to really take their places...even guys like Hedman, Ekblad or Nurses. Romanov is not on their level either.

Patience is not the best answer when you have one of the best goalie in the league.
Patience is not the best answer when in 2 years you have Danault, Gallagher, Tatar, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Petry all coming in for a big raise, or needs to be replace.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Correct, the 20 game struggle overlapped time with Domi and he was then moved down. It doesn't take away what he did when they were producing. These kids are still learning and have not reached their prime years yet.

I disagree it has nothing to do with Domi learning how to play center. I think there is a concern there with Julien to some degree.

You’re conveniently moving the blame to Domi by saying he was learning the center position. That’s not why they were separated. Not at all. Drouin was playing bloody awful. That’s why they were split up. And Domi kept going after while Drouin went face first into a brick wall.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You’re conveniently moving the blame to Domi by saying he was learning the center position. That’s not why they were separated. Not at all. Drouin was playing bloody awful. That’s why they were split up. And Domi kept going after while Drouin went face first into a brick wall.

Not blaming anyone. Just talking about circumstance of how Drouin can excel based on the situation we put him in.

Hey, I could be completely wrong but I could be right. I believe in young players with skill and I value Drouin's skill on the Habs. I do think he has a few 70-80 pt seasons in him in the future when our top 6 depth grows together.

 

[Milhouse40]

Depends on PP time and if the 3rd line is the 2nd line on any given night. Ice time changes from game to game.

Kotkaniemi had 34 pts in 79 games playing 3rd line minutes with minimal PP time and in his first season as a 18 year old. He is only 16 pts off that pace and could of easily reach 50 pts if he had more PP time and a few of those goal posts shots went in throughout the year. Not to mentioned Armia and Lehkonen not finishing as well.

Yeah but in the last part of the season i saw 0 chemistry between Drouin and KK.....and KK is learning, he can't cover for Drouin's mistake defensively and that's why, if we take their ice-time into consideration that they ended up the season pretty much as the 4th line.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeah but in the last part of the season i saw 0 chemistry between Drouin and KK.....and KK is learning, he can't cover for Drouin's mistake defensively and that's why, if we take their ice-time into consideration that they ended up the season pretty much as the 4th line.

The issue with Kotkaniemi's game is he is not strong enough to hold on to the puck and protect it yet. So less time and space forces the eagle to make a quicker decision with the puck and when the level play got more competition towards the end of the season, it clearly showed. I did see some success with Kotkaniemi and Drouin (here and there) but nowhere near like it was with Drouin and Domi. Domi is a solid puck possession guy due to his skating and draws attention which helps his wingers.