Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part III (Updates in First Post)

[Pokecheque]

Again, the question asked to date although your point is fair.

Yep, agreed, that's not meant as part of this current evaluation, just saying we haven't seen him tackle that particular challenge yet.

 

[Foppa2118]

Before Kadri trade:



After:

 

[cgf]

Yeah, what we needed a year ago was a younger Carl Soderberg to solve our 2nd line problems.

If Carl had the talent to score 5-10 more points a season while also being a much better defender, then f*** yeah that would've helped us beat SJ. But Hayes wasn't the only option last summer that was campaigned for, just a nice example of the intellectually dishonest framing that some posters...*cough*...are using

I absolutely believe 5 should be only if you win the Cup. That's what your ultimate goal is and therefore if you don't attain that goal then you shouldn't get a 5. That's why I have problems with the poll choices. There aren't in-betweens. You are ok, good or you are amazing.

My 2 cents.

I lean towards this position, with the qualifier "if you're in a position to contend for the cup." Some teams need to be torn down before they can put themselves in position to contend...see us a decade ago.

 

[Richard88]

I think it's fair to say that until now Sakic has done an amazing job with the roster, overhauling it in just 2 years all while reaching the playoffs twice in succession. That said, the biggest test is still ahead when it comes to managing the cap and getting the team to win a cup, and so grading him now feels incomplete. For the job done so far though, I give him 5 stars.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

If Carl had the talent to score 5-10 more points a season while also being a much better defender, then f*** yeah that would've helped us beat SJ. But Hayes wasn't the only option last summer that was campaigned for, just a nice example of the intellectually dishonest framing that some posters...*cough*...are using


I lean towards this position, with the qualifier "if you're in a position to contend for the cup." Some teams need to be torn down before they can put themselves in position to contend...see us a decade ago.

Honest question...could you refresh my memory regarding who those other options were last summer you referring to? I know there was Stastny but I am still very confused about if we turned him down or the other way around. Were there somebody else?

 

[cgf]

Honest question...could you refresh my memory regarding who those other options were last summer you referring to? I know there was Stastny but I am still very confused about if we turned him down or the other way around. Were there somebody else?

Zibanejad is the Center that I know was available, on top of ROR & Hayes, but I don't know who else was quietly shopped. Henchy would probably be able to give you a better answer if he can share. But there's always a number of guys who aren't being talked about in the press that teams shop.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Zibanejad is the Center that I know was available, on top of ROR & Hayes, but I don't know who else was quietly shopped. Henchy would probably be able to give you a better answer if he can share. But there's always a number of guys who aren't being talked about in the press that teams shop.

You can't count ROR though. There was no way he was coming here/

I never saw anything about Zib being available except you commenting on how you wanted him. Do you have a link?

 

[John Mandalorian]

I gave him a 5. I think he's done and amazing job and the organization is now in a place of nice balance -- finally! There are some decisions you can criticize. But you also can't say he hasn't learned from them. The three biggest/most obvious mistakes are:

• Letting Stastny walk for nothing
• Letting things drag out with Newport and ROR
• Letting the black cloud which was the Duchene situation linger so long (but ultimately, he did make a great trade)

Barrie's situation had similarities to all of the above.

Aside from that, I think it's fair to question the Avs ability to draft and develop players even though that has seemed to improve somewhat. But on the flip side, we haven't had a lot of misses when we did get a high pick. Fans of other teams will be quick to point this out but there have been several other teams with very high picks going back to 2013. I'm not so sure they can say they've done as well with those picks.

 

[Foppa2118]

Zibanejad is the Center that I know was available, on top of ROR & Hayes, but I don't know who else was quietly shopped. Henchy would probably be able to give you a better answer if he can share. But there's always a number of guys who aren't being talked about in the press that teams shop.

Yeah but for the Avs to bring in Zibanejad it likely would have required Barrie going the other way like Kadri did. Unlikely Barrie was going to get moved before things came to a head this summer. They wouldn’t have been able to say they tried to keep him by trying to negotiate all year.

I doubt Hayes would have signed for Landy money last summer either. He always seemed set on testing UFA or getting what he thought was UFA money. He got traded twice to teams trying to sign him and even Philly seemed like they might not pull it off at one point before they finally met his asking price.

I don’t think he would have signed without some NMC protection either.

Sakic definitely has a habit of being overly patient, but IMO that was more a problem in the Roy years. Some of the moves he made could have been made sooner, but since then I think he seems to have picked his spots to be patient wisely.

 

[Pokecheque]

I still don't hold the Stastny departure against him. He wasn't pulling the plug on what was at the time a stellar run (and incidentally, the last time the Avs won the division) and getting futures for the guy centering the team's best line at the time (Landeskog - Stastny - MacKinnon). They still had two top-tier centers in O'Reilly and Duchene, and the eventual ROY in MacKinnon. There's also the fact they freed up a sizable amount of cap space with Stazz leaving. Where they completely and utterly and totally f***ed up is what they ended up doing with that cap space.

In hindsight, they should have seriously taken a good, long look at dealing O'Reilly. It was post-offer sheet, they already knew he wasn't going to settle for $6 million per on a long-term deal.

 

[flyfysher]

BTW, Sakic has one more big test remaining. How well will he be able to maneuver under the cap when the Avs eventually don't have a lot of it to spare? We haven't quite seen that yet, not with this current stable of talent.

Absolutely spot on. It's a constant never ending balancing act that requires foresight, analysis and anticipation. He knew Barrie was due for a big raise. I get the TB love. But if Sakic has proved anything to me, it's that he'd trade any of his players if he thought he could get more back in value and put the team in a better place. You can see Sakic has previously avoided costly FA quick fixes even though that option was there. It was all in order to avoid having to find himself in the same position in the future that Dubas has been dealing with.

 

[Iceberg]

If Carl had the talent to score 5-10 more points a season while also being a much better defender, then f*** yeah that would've helped us beat SJ. But Hayes wasn't the only option last summer that was campaigned for, just a nice example of the intellectually dishonest framing that some posters...*cough*...are using


I lean towards this position, with the qualifier "if you're in a position to contend for the cup." Some teams need to be torn down before they can put themselves in position to contend...see us a decade ago.

Who campaigned for Hayes a year ago?

 

[cgf]

You can't count ROR though. There was no way he was coming here/

I never saw anything about Zib being available except you commenting on how you wanted him. Do you have a link?

No I don't. As far as I know that was never publically reported...although Brooks may have floated it last summer and I just never saw it.

Just something I was told by a garden corp. employee that I've been talking basketball with since the mid-2000s who's given my knicks info that panned out before.

Yeah but for the Avs to bring in Zibanejad it likely would have required Barrie going the other way like Kadri did. Unlikely Barrie was going to get moved before things came to a head this summer. They wouldn’t have been able to say they tried to keep him by trying to negotiate all year.

I doubt Hayes would have signed for Landy money last summer either. He always seemed set on testing UFA or getting what he thought was UFA money. He got traded twice to teams trying to sign him and even Philly seemed like they might not pull it off at one point before they finally met his asking price.

I don’t think he would have signed without some NMC protection either.

Sakic definitely has a habit of being overly patient, but IMO that was more a problem in the Roy years. Some of the moves he made could have been made sooner, but since then I think he seems to have picked his spots to be patient wisely.

Not from what I was told.

Hayes was looking for Landy money before being forced to take a 1-year prove it deal, at which point yes, he was set on going to FA, but he wasn't looking for a 1 year deal last summer until NYR refused to go long term with him.

Who campaigned for Hayes a year ago?

Nice to know you read our posts.

 

[Foppa2118]

Not from what I was told.

Hayes was looking for Landy money before being forced to take a 1-year prove it deal, at which point yes, he was set on going to FA, but he wasn't looking for a 1 year deal last summer until NYR refused to go long term with him.

I don't know what else the Avs could offer NYR to entice them into giving up Zib though. Outside of the top line guys which obviously wasn't going to happen, Barrie is the only one with enough value IMO. Seems doubtful they'd be interested in dealing him for futures, because he would have been dealt by now if that's the case.

Personally I didn't put much stock into why talks fell through with NYR and Hayes last year. The Rangers have never had a problem throwing money and term at players. I think there was more to the story than reported but who knows.

 

[cgf]

I don't know what else the Avs could offer NYR to entice them into giving up Zib though. Outside of the top line guys which obviously wasn't going to happen, Barrie is the only one with enough value IMO. Seems doubtful they'd be interested in dealing him for futures, because he would have been dealt by now if that's the case.

Personally I didn't put much stock into why talks fell through with NYR and Hayes last year. The Rangers have never had a problem throwing money and term at players. I think there was more to the story than reported but who knows.

I was told that they were looking for 2 1sts (our 2019 & 2020 1st would've been fine) + an A-/B+ prospect depending on who's 1sts it was, Jost and Timmins (if he had been healthy) were the names he threw out there for the prospect.

They weren't sure that Hayes was worth paying for at that time...since they thought that they were looking at another season or two of rebuilding before they got Kakko & Bread...and Hayes wanted some trade protection from them to give Gorton the AAV that he wanted.

 

[sethro109]

I would rate this as a 2 while Roy was here and a 5 after Roy left.

 

[Foppa2118]

I was told that they were looking for 2 1sts (our 2019 & 2020 1st would've been fine) + an A-/B+ prospect depending on who's 1sts it was, Jost and Timmins (if he had been healthy) were the names he threw out there for the prospect.

They weren't sure that Hayes was worth paying for at that time...since they thought that they were looking at another season or two of rebuilding before they got Kakko & Bread...and Hayes wanted some trade protection from them to give Gorton the AAV that he wanted.

That's essentially three 1sts for Zibanejad though, who at that time had a career high 51 points as a 25 year old. That's not a realistic ask IMO. That sounds more like a response to Joe kicking tires on Zib and it explains why talks didn't go far if it's true.

 

[cgf]

That's essentially three 1sts for Zibanejad though, who at that time had a career high 51 points as a 25 year old. That's not a realistic ask IMO. That sounds more like a response to Joe kicking tires on Zib and it explains why talks didn't go far if it's true.

Well he wasn't much higher on Jost than I was, so saw him as more of a B+ than A- prospect, and suggested the 2020 pick be top 10 protected if it was Jost; so I really don't think it would've been an unreasonable price to pay given Zibby's usage and how little help he had had since getting an offensive role there.

Nevermind if the price was actually closer to the 1st+Jost+Morrison that Henchy threw out there last summer.

 

[Foppa2118]

Well he wasn't much higher on Jost than I was, so saw him as more of a B+ than A- prospect, and suggested the 2020 pick be top 10 protected if it was Jost; so I really don't think it would've been an unreasonable price to pay given Zibby's usage and how little help he had had since getting an offensive role there.

Nevermind if the price was actually closer to the 1st+Jost+Morrison that Henchy threw out there last summer.

I'm obviously just speculating but I'm not sure a 1st+Jost+Morrison would be enough incentive for the Rangers to trade Zibanejad. Feels like they'd just keep him unless the Avs made a hockey trade with Barrie, but that was too early for the Avs to do that. That's why I think we don't see a lot of these deals when we want them. It's a cliche, but they have to make sense for both teams.

 

[cgf]

I'm obviously just speculating but I'm not sure a 1st+Jost+Morrison would be enough incentive for the Rangers to trade Zibanejad. Feels like they'd just keep him unless the Avs made a hockey trade with Barrie, but that was too early for the Avs to do that. That's why I think we don't see a lot of these deals when we want them. It's a cliche, but they have to make sense for both teams.

IIRC that's what Henchy said he had heard it would cost last summer, though I'm not 100% on Jost having been the 2nd piece.

 

[Foppa2118]

IIRC that's what Henchy said he had heard it would cost last summer, though I'm not 100% on Jost having been the 2nd piece.

Yeah I don't know. I don't see the incentive for NYR to give up Zibanejad on a good contract just so they can hope Jost or the 1st gets to Zib's level. If it wasn't Jost, Timmins is the next prospect with value, and I don't think that's enough either. Certainly not with his health problems last summer. Makar wasn't getting moved and they had just drafted Kaut so he was unlikely to be involved.

That feels like the kind of return a rebuilding or cost cutting team would take, and NYR is neither.

 

[Iceberg]

So, we are back at judging Sakic on fantasy trades that he didn't make? How pathetic.

 

[Foxtail]

I was told that they were looking for 2 1sts (our 2019 & 2020 1st would've been fine) + an A-/B+ prospect depending on who's 1sts it was, Jost and Timmins (if he had been healthy) were the names he threw out there for the prospect.

They weren't sure that Hayes was worth paying for at that time...since they thought that they were looking at another season or two of rebuilding before they got Kakko & Bread...and Hayes wanted some trade protection from them to give Gorton the AAV that he wanted.

They are still looking at a few more years of rebuild

 

[21]

You can't count ROR though. There was no way he was coming here/

I never saw anything about Zib being available except you commenting on how you wanted him. Do you have a link?

All players from Ottawa constantly being available, they **** in trades, even worse than Toronto during their worst years. If you let a franchise player like Karlsson go anything is possible?

Zib? I guess they lost patience in him like they have been doing with many talents, in particular Swedish ones. ;-) The management in Ottawa simply viewing Brassard as the superior player comparing the two.

 

[cgf]

So, we are back at judging Sakic on fantasy trades that he didn't make? How pathetic.

My B. Please return to your regularly scheduled (and totally not-pathetic) ass kissing.