Joe Sakic or Steve Yzerman?

[canucks4ever]

Who is the most underrated player in the history of the sport? Both men had great careers, have high ppg averages and 3 cups, yet they truly dont get the recognition they deserve.

People like bobby hull and bobby clarke repeatedly get called top 15 of all time players because they won a few mvp/scoring titles in thier careers. Yet people wont mention the fact that these two were lucky to play before the times of gretzky and lemiuex.

Steve Yzerman has a higher ppg average than bobby hull. He is a better defensive forward than bobby hull could ever dream of, he has 3 cups, bobby has 1. Yet bobby gets ranked higher? Why, is it because he won scoring titles and mvps when gretzky and lemiuex were not around.

The yzerman from 87-93 was a god damn monster. Take gretzky and lemiuex away from those eras and he would have a crap load of mvps or scoring titles.

The only way bobby hull beats yzerman is in goal scoring, thats it.

Click to read more...

 

[maxpowers]

You should check out the threads regarding the top 100 players of all time which are currently being debated. There's quite a bit of information in them which would probably answer your questions.

 

[arrbez]

Who is the most underrated player in the history of the sport? Both men had great careers, have high ppg averages and 3 cups, yet they truly dont get the recognition they deserve.

People like bobby hull and bobby clarke repeatedly get called top 15 of all time players because they won a few mvp/scoring titles in thier careers. Yet people wont mention the fact that these two were lucky to play before the times of gretzky and lemiuex.

Steve Yzerman has a higher ppg average than bobby hull. He is a better defensive forward than bobby hull could ever dream of, he has 3 cups, bobby has 1. Yet bobby gets ranked higher? Why, is it because he won scoring titles and mvps when gretzky and lemiuex were not around.

The yzerman from 87-93 was a god damn monster. Take gretzky and lemiuex away from those eras and he would have a crap load of mvps.

The only way bobby hull beats yzerman is in goal scoring, thats it.

As far as I can tell, Yzerman and Sakic would have ONE scoring title between them if Lemieux and Gretzky never existed (Yzerman in 1989). Seriously, this is a huge myth that Yzerman was the clear #3 forward in the game for any significant period of time. He wasn't. He was up there for sure, but he didn't get robbed every year like some people seem to think. Go here and check where he placed in Hart voting:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

1989 is the only year he would have won the Hart/Art Ross if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the picture.



BTW, point-per-game is a terrible way to compare players across era's. It shows complete ignorance. Do you really think guys like Bernie Nicholls and Rick Martin were better than Maurice Richard? Give your head a shake.

 

[canucks4ever]

As far as I can tell, Yzerman and Sakic would have ONE scoring title between them if Lemieux and Gretzky never existed (Yzerman in 1989). Seriously, this is a huge myth that Yzerman was the clear #3 forward in the game for any significant period of time. He wasn't. He was up there for sure, but he didn't get robbed every year like some people seem to think. Go here and check where he placed in Hart voting:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

1989 is the only year he would have won the Hart and Art Ross if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the picture.

well lets compare it this way.

playmaking- yzerman
defensive play- yzerman
ppg average- yzerman
stanley cups- yzerman

where does bobby hull hold an advantage besides scoring goals?

Joe sakic has been an elite player for what, 16 out of 19 seasons. Most guys turn into washedup hasbeens after 10 years.

 

[jiggs 10]

I'm the world's biggest Stevie Y fan, but I wouldn't use Bobby Hull as a comparison. Hull was a legend for good reason. I agree Yzerman is far and away better than Booby Clarke in every facet of the game of hockey, and so is Sakic. The fact that they played large parts of their careers behind two of the top 6 or 7 players to ever play in the NHL is not their faults. And they all played the same position, so there wasn't a lot of room on the end-of-season All-Star teams then.

I think in the very near future, Yzerman will start getting the respect he should have been getting all along, as far as an all-timer goes. Sakic, when he retires, will get this also. Sakic is already the most respected player in the NHL (as shown by a poll done by The Hockey News on the subject earlier this year), and Stevie was always there when he was playing. Yzerman is in the top 10 in all scoring categories, hard to imagine he is not a top 15 forward of all-time.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Hull was arguably the most dominant goal scorer ever. Higher points per game average? Meaningless stat, Yzerman played in a much higher scoring era. Take Lemieux and Gretzky away and Yzerman still only has one scoring title and probably one MVP. Dont project the Yzerman of the late 90's back across his whole career, he wasn't always a great all-around player who was a Selke candidate. Hull was a very complete player as well, so to say Yzerman was better defensively than Hull could ever dream of is hogwash.

Yzerman was a great player, and I have him and Sakic very close. Both are inside my top 40 of all-time. But they didn't quite reach Hull's level of dominance. Very few would argue that Hull isn't a top 10 player of all time.

 

[pappyline]

Who is the most underrated player in the history of the sport? Both men had great careers, have high ppg averages and 3 cups, yet they truly dont get the recognition they deserve.

People like bobby hull and bobby clarke repeatedly get called top 15 of all time players because they won a few mvp/scoring titles in thier careers. Yet people wont mention the fact that these two were lucky to play before the times of gretzky and lemiuex.

Steve Yzerman has a higher ppg average than bobby hull. He is a better defensive forward than bobby hull could ever dream of, he has 3 cups, bobby has 1. Yet bobby gets ranked higher? Why, is it because he won scoring titles and mvps when gretzky and lemiuex were not around.

The yzerman from 87-93 was a god damn monster. Take gretzky and lemiuex away from those eras and he would have a crap load of mvps or scoring titles.

The only way bobby hull beats yzerman is in goal scoring, thats it.

Simply put, Bobby Hull was better than Yzerman and that is why anybody that knows anything about hockey ranks Hull higher than Yzerman.

 

[canucks4ever]

Simply put, Bobby Hull was better than Yzerman and that is why anybody that knows anything about hockey ranks Hull higher than Yzerman.

based on ? yeah goal scoring is the only thing hes better at.

 

[pappyline]

based on ? yeah goal scoring is the only thing hes better at.

Based on my eyes. I saw the entire career of both.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

based on ? yeah goal scoring is the only thing hes better at.

For starters, he's MILES ahead of Yzerman in terms of goal-scoring, so that is a very big advantage.

Defensive play? I didn't watch Hull so it's tough to compare, but people who did watch Bobby will attest to his great all-around game. If Yzerman has an advantage in that category at all, it's small.

Physical play? The nod goes to Hull there for sure, he was strong as an ox and one of the game's most feared fighters in his prime.

Playmaking? The edge probably goes to Yzerman, but it's much closer than many would think.

 

[pappyline]

I've generally found that Yzerman and Sakic are underrated here (top 40-50) and overrated on the main board (top 15) but there is no way that either are better than Bobby Hull.

Now I am seeing a lot of people putting Bobby Hull over Beliveau. Granted it is very close between these two, but I wonder why?

On the HOH top 100, Hull was # 5, Beliveau #8. Read the discussions in and you will know why.

 

[canucks4ever]

On the HOH top 100, Hull was # 5, Beliveau #8. Read the discussions in and you will know why.

bobby hull ahead of doug harvey?

6 norris trophies and a cups beats bobby hulls career anyday. Hey i thought winning cups is what matters. How can bobby hull compare with a guy that was voted best defenceman 6 times.

 

[pappyline]

bobby hull ahead of doug harvey?

6 norris trophies and a cups beats bobby hulls career anyday. Hey i thought winning cups is what matters. How can bobby hull compare with a guy that was voted best defenceman 6 times.

You obviously know nothing about the history of hockey. Go back to the main board until you have done the necessary research so that you can make intelligent comments. I am not wasting any more time with you. You periodicaly show up on this board only to troll & make stupid comments.

 

[pitseleh]

As far as I can tell, Yzerman and Sakic would have ONE scoring title between them if Lemieux and Gretzky never existed (Yzerman in 1989). Seriously, this is a huge myth that Yzerman was the clear #3 forward in the game for any significant period of time. He wasn't. He was up there for sure, but he didn't get robbed every year like some people seem to think. Go here and check where he placed in Hart voting:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

1989 is the only year he would have won the Hart/Art Ross if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux from the picture.

While I do agree to a certain extent, Yzerman also had to deal with a roster completely bereft of talent. For example, Yzerman's 155 point season was Yzerman working with Gerrard Gallant while the top-10 scorers that years were Gretzky, Lemieux, and a bunch of players that played with Gretzky and Lemieux. During his peak (late 80's/early 90's) Hull had Oates, Lafontaine had Mogilny, and Messier had Kurri.

Yes, great players will produce regardless of their teammates, but great players with very good teammates will produce more than great players with average teammates. I know Gretzky and Lemieux were able to win scoring titles with awful teammates, but they are so exceptional that it's not really fair to use them as a comparison.

 

[canucks4ever]

How about jaromir jagr? How does he compare all time. 5 scoring titles, hart trophy and lester be pearson. I guarantee people will say hes not top 15 too.

 

[Up the Irons]

Yzerman and Sakic were always among the best in the world, but never THE best in the world (maybe Sakic when he was Olympic MVP and Hart winner). beside 99 and 66, Messier, Jagr, Forsberg, were others that have held the unofficial title of 'world's best player'. Was Yzerman better than Lafleur? maybe. But Lafleur was DA MAN for about 5 years. Was Hull considered the best in the world? before my time, maybe someone who watched at that time can interject.

IMO, in order to crack the top 10, you must have been 'the world's best player' for more than 2 seasons.

 

[Up the Irons]

ush: 'How about jaromir jagr? How does he compare all time. 5 scoring titles, hart trophy'

oh, yeah, JJ rates up there. he was either number 1 or 2 in the world for a decade. he probably should rate as high as Lafleur or Espo, but he is no where near as popular (numero dix may be the most loved player of my lifetime)

 

[Birko19]

I take Yzerman for the obvious reason.

I also agree that even though Yzerman was shadowed by the greats like Gretzky and Lemieux, he still would not win plenty of Harts and scoring titles if they were't there, there was other great players around that he would've had to compete with, but I suspect he would be top-3 in his era (Without Mario and Wayne).

 

[canucks4ever]

ush: 'How about jaromir jagr? How does he compare all time. 5 scoring titles, hart trophy'

oh, yeah, JJ rates up there. he was either number 1 or 2 in the world for a decade. he probably should rate as high as Lafleur or Espo, but he is no where near as popular (numero dix may be the most loved player of my lifetime)

he was #2 in 95, #1 in 98, 99 and 2000, in 2001 it was him and sakic. In 96 and 97 he was #2 or 3. in 2002 and 2006 he was still top 5 clearly and this was considered declining years for jagr, lol.

The only reason he wouldnt be in top 10 is due to lack of popularity, you cant win 5 scoring titles, lester and hart and not be included.

 

[Big Phil]

he was #2 in 95, #1 in 98, 99 and 2000, in 2001 it was him and sakic. In 96 and 97 he was #2 or 3. in 2002 and 2006 he was still top 5 clearly and this was considered declining years for jagr, lol.

The only reason he wouldnt be in top 10 is due to lack of popularity, you cant win 5 scoring titles, lester and hart and not be included.

Jagr would not be any worse than top 20 of all time and he wouldnt cause me to raise my eyebrows with top 15. He is as good as Espo, Mikita, Sakic and Yzerman. Just too dominant to be ignored.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I take Yzerman for the obvious reason.

I also agree that even though Yzerman was shadowed by the greats like Gretzky and Lemieux, he still would not win plenty of Harts and scoring titles if they were't there, there was other great players around that he would've had to compete with, but I suspect he would be top-3 in his era (Without Mario and Wayne).

What is the obvious reason? He is your favorite player?

If you take a look at the facts, Yzerman was the third best player behind Wayne and Mario only once. He was NOT consistently #3, consequently he wasn't robbed of Ross and Hart trophies by those two. He was robbed of Ross and Hart trophies because he just didn't deserve them.

Check it out, those are the facts.

 

[Big Phil]

While I love Yzerman, it is a growing myth that when he put up 155, 127 points and regularily put up 100+ points in a year that he was a gem defensively. When '95 hit, that's when his numbers slipped and his all around game took off as did his leadership which led to the Cup wins. In 2000 he won the Selke. He was nowhere near that type of defensive play in '89 so his explosive offensive output didnt overlap his defensive game.

Plus he has one first team all-star to boot. Not bad and I know he played a lot with #99 and #66 but that still hurts a bit. Hull on the flip side has 12 post season all-star nods at LW, has two Hart Trophies, and 3 Art Ross Trophies. Yzerman beats him in Cups (3-1) and perhaps you may call him a slightly better playoff performer but the edge is slight.

Hull ledthe league in goals 7 times, more than anyone in NHL history. Hull has 4-5 years where a good chunk of people may have called him the best in the NHL. And for a decade he was #2-3 along with the likes of Howe, Mikita and Beliveau. Outside of '89 Yzerman was never the best player in the game with out #99 and #66. He was top 5 for a few seasons but his peak gets trumped by Hull's peak.

 

[canucks4ever]

While I love Yzerman, it is a growing myth that when he put up 155, 127 points and regularily put up 100+ points in a year that he was a gem defensively. When '95 hit, that's when his numbers slipped and his all around game took off as did his leadership which led to the Cup wins. In 2000 he won the Selke. He was nowhere near that type of defensive play in '89 so his explosive offensive output didnt overlap his defensive game.

Plus he has one first team all-star to boot. Not bad and I know he played a lot with #99 and #66 but that still hurts a bit. Hull on the flip side has 12 post season all-star nods at LW, has two Hart Trophies, and 3 Art Ross Trophies. Yzerman beats him in Cups (3-1) and perhaps you may call him a slightly better playoff performer but the edge is slight.

Hull ledthe league in goals 7 times, more than anyone in NHL history. Hull has 4-5 years where a good chunk of people may have called him the best in the NHL. And for a decade he was #2-3 along with the likes of Howe, Mikita and Beliveau. Outside of '89 Yzerman was never the best player in the game with out #99 and #66. He was top 5 for a few seasons but his peak gets trumped by Hull's peak.

yeah hull has 12, but its at the weakest position ever. Doesnt luc robitaille have like 7 all star nods. Leclair has like 5.

 

[TANK200]

yeah hull has 12, but its at the weakest position ever. Doesnt luc robitaille have like 7 all star nods. Leclair has like 5.

Left wing wasn't exactly weak during Hull's era. Aside from him there were also players such as Frank Mahovlich, John Bucyk and Dickie Moore. Left wing during Hull's era was on par with any other position other than maybe center.

 

[Birko19]

What is the obvious reason? He is your favorite player?

If you take a look at the facts, Yzerman was the third best player behind Wayne and Mario only once. He was NOT consistently #3, consequently he wasn't robbed of Ross and Hart trophies by those two. He was robbed of Ross and Hart trophies because he just didn't deserve them.

Check it out, those are the facts.

Yes, he's my fav player of all-time.

Also where did I say Yzerman got robbed from Hart trophies?