Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 17

[Miller Time]

He’s asking for the stats and video analysis, which you don’t provide. You’re literally basing your entire opinion on Kevin Bieksa talking about KK in passing.

Maybe try reading the posts before replying... Will help avoid making faulty claims as you did above.

Without reading comprehension, discussion is not very useful.

 

[le_sean]

It would appear that he's one of the best playoff goal scoring C's in league history at his age...

You calling him a "playmaking C" doesn't change that reality nor does looking at his assist column indicate he doesn't generate offense.

Since Anderson has 1g and 0 assists, what's your label for him, I wonder

He’s shooting at a 26.7% in the playoffs. Somehow you think that’s sustainable. And everyone knows he’s a playmaking centre. The guy has a total of 276 shots in 171 NHL games. Shooters don’t average 1.5 shots a game.

And no, he’s not generating offence. Controlled zone exits is not offence.

 

[le_sean]

Maybe try reading the posts before replying... Will help avoid making faulty claims as you did above.

Without reading comprehension, discussion is not very useful.

You’re literally the king of deflection. You claim to have all of this evidence, yet you only casually allude to it instead of provide it. Then you try and spin the argument to say that we just don’t understand the lack of information you provide.

 

[DAChampion]

He’s shooting at a 26.7% in the playoffs. Somehow you think that’s sustainable. And everyone knows he’s a playmaking centre. The guy has a total of 276 shots in 171 NHL games. Shooters don’t average 1.5 shots a game.

And no, he’s not generating offence. Controlled zone exits is not offence.

26.7% Shooting percentage is not sustainable, bit neither is the 0% shooting percentage of his linemates.

 

[azcanuck]

Last year when Kotkaniemi was in the AHL posters were "concerned" that he had 11 assists and 0 goals at some point, they suggested that he was all playmaking and no shooting.

I'm pretty sure KK would be a dominant player in the AHL. The game is much slower there.

 

[azcanuck]

It would appear that he's one of the best playoff goal scoring C's in league history at his age...

You calling him a "playmaking C" doesn't change that reality nor does looking at his assist column indicate he doesn't generate offense.

Since Anderson has 1g and 0 assists, what's your label for him, I wonder

Plain and simply disappointed. He creates his own shot too so I dont expect him to be reliant on the ineptitude of KK to create for him.

Unless you're an Anderson apologist like you are for KK , you cant call him anything but disappointing.

 

[azcanuck]

Galach remains one of the top offensive players from his draft year... That take aged well thank you.

I didn't make the claim that JKO has not provided scoring opportunities to his wingers, another poster did. Onus would be on him to back up his claim, not the other way around.

I simply offered the various context, beyond my own observations from watching the game, that support the assessment that JKO has indeed been creating offense through his play.

If you don't like stats and don't like video analysis by former players, that's your issue, not mine.

Did I miss something.

Oh I did and went back:
Except the available statistical data...
Analysis by former players turned commentators...
And eye test of many of the more informe/experienced posters...

LOL.

 

[Miller Time]

Did I miss something.

apparently so... back to the importance of reading posts before replying to them.

 

[Miller Time]

Plain and simply disappointed. He creates his own shot too so I dont expect him to be reliant on the ineptitude of KK to create for him.

Unless you're an Anderson apologist like you are for KK , you cant call him anything but disappointing.

I'd say that his offensive production has been extremely disappointing since he came back from his mid-season injury. I don't think that changes the type of player he is.

He seems to be contributing in other ways, much as JKO did/does, which is at least of some value. Players that have various dimensions of impact on the game are more useful than those are only of use when they are putting points up, imo.

Apologist? I doubt anyone would accuse me of that. I didn't like the long-term extension given the risk factor, and while i do appreciate the other things he brings to the team, if he's going to be as ineffective at contributing offensive production as he has been overall this season, his cap hit is going to be problematic.

Referencing JKO's play in the post-season as "inept" is... fascinating. That kind of take leads me to question your understanding of the game of hockey as that is an opinion I don't believe there is any evidence in support of.

 

[azcanuck]

Right... So now it's the assist column that feeds your narrative... Thanks for clarifying the depth of your hot take lol

Assists columns are proof. But they dont always tell the story. KK could be setting up his wingers for scoring opportunities for his wingers and they are failing to convert but this is simply not happening.

And if you look at his overall playoff history , very little assists. Many different wingers. Pretty damming evidence to what your narrative is.

 

[Miller Time]

You’re literally the king of deflection. You claim to have all of this evidence, yet you only casually allude to it instead of provide it. Then you try and spin the argument to say that we just don’t understand the lack of information you provide.

says the guy who claims JKO doesn't generate offense because he doesn't have any assists in these playoffs

thanks for the laugh

 

[azcanuck]

I'd say that his offensive production has been extremely disappointing since he came back from his mid-season injury. I don't think that changes the type of player he is.

He seems to be contributing in other ways, much as JKO did/does, which is at least of some value. Players that have various dimensions of impact on the game are more useful than those are only of use when they are putting points up, imo.

Apologist? I doubt anyone would accuse me of that. I didn't like the long-term extension given the risk factor, and while i do appreciate the other things he brings to the team, if he's going to be as ineffective at contributing offensive production as he has been overall this season, his cap hit is going to be problematic.

Referencing JKO's play in the post-season as "inept" is... fascinating. That kind of take leads me to question your understanding of the game of hockey as that is an opinion I don't believe there is any evidence in support of.

Whoa cowboy. I'm not calling you an Anderson apologist, I am calling you a KK one though. Anderson is still contributing with his physical play. Zero playmaking ability and does have some scoring chances. The way he is skating and hitting I dont think he's hurt.
And I called the playmaking of KK inept. That's it. Just the playmaking.

 

[Miller Time]

He’s shooting at a 26.7% in the playoffs. Somehow you think that’s sustainable. And everyone knows he’s a playmaking centre. The guy has a total of 276 shots in 171 NHL games. Shooters don’t average 1.5 shots a game.

And no, he’s not generating offence. Controlled zone exits is not offence.

funny... some would argue that goals are offense.
some would argue that getting the puck successfully out of your dzone, and sucessfully into the ozone is a requirement for offense
some would argue that having a positive differential in shots for vs shots against while on the ice is a requirement for offense

and so on
and so on

but hey, he doesn't have assists, that CLEARLY is a better indicator of his inability to generate offense

 

[Miller Time]

Did I miss something.

Oh I did and went back:
Except the available statistical data...
Analysis by former players turned commentators...
And eye test of many of the more informe/experienced posters...

LOL.

yes. Various context. Thank you for confirming.

 

[azcanuck]

says the guy who claims JKO doesn't generate offense because he doesn't have any assists in these playoffs

thanks for the laugh

What's the joke? 100 percent true.(playmaking)

 

[Miller Time]

Whoa cowboy. I'm not calling you an Anderson apologist, I am calling you a KK one though. Anderson is still contributing with his physical play. Zero playmaking ability and does have some scoring chances. The way he is skating and hitting I dont think he's hurt.
And I called the playmaking of KK inept. That's it. Just the playmaking.

Plain and simply disappointed. He creates his own shot too so I dont expect him to be reliant on the ineptitude of KK to create for him.

Unless you're an Anderson apologist like you are for KK , you cant call him anything but disappointing.

thank you for clarifying. What you wrote did not specify "playmaking ineptitude", and seemed to be posing the question of wether i was an "anderson apologist".

I guess your definition of playmaking is one that equates to assist totals alone... i wonder, does it differentiate between primary and secondary?

Is Edmundson now a "playmaking dman" because he had 3 assists in 4 games?

Personally, i would view being a "playmaker" as a bit more than the assist column, especially in a small sample size and when the relative performance of linemates is factored in.

not at all differently than still viewing Caufield as a dangerous goal scorer, and recognizing that he has been dangerous despite having a zero in the goal column.

to each their own definitions, of course.

 

[Miller Time]

What's the joke? 100 percent true.(playmaking)

generating offense, again here, clearly means different things to different people.

 

[azcanuck]

funny... some would argue that goals are offense.


but hey, he doesn't have assists, that CLEARLY is a better indicator of his inability to generate offense

For sure.

 

[le_sean]

funny... some would argue that goals are offense.
some would argue that getting the puck successfully out of your dzone, and sucessfully into the ozone is a requirement for offense
some would argue that having a positive differential in shots for vs shots against while on the ice is a requirement for offense

and so on
and so on

but hey, he doesn't have assists, that CLEARLY is a better indicator of his inability to generate offense

We can celebrate when he wins the xGF Art Ross trophy instead of the actual one

 

[Miller Time]

Assists columns are proof. But they dont always tell the story. KK could be setting up his wingers for scoring opportunities for his wingers and they are failing to convert but this is simply not happening.

And if you look at his overall playoff history , very little assists. Many different wingers. Pretty damming evidence to what your narrative is.

well, the bolded is where we disagree. You started with that, yet have offered no evidence of it at any point, nor any other context that might support such an opinion. Ball would be in your court to either provide something, or simply own that it's purely a subjective opinion with nothing to substantiate or contextualize it (aside from the assist column, which, you point out yourself, doesn't always tell teh whole story).

And fyi, for JKO's career in professional hockey:
279 games, 43 goals, 78 assists.

to cherry pick the 20 NHL playoff games, where's he's got 8 goals and no assists (putting him among the absolute best all-time for PO goals scored under 21yrs old), while conveniently ignoring what kind of role/usage/linemates he's had in those 20 games, to build your narrative... speaks to how little substance there is to it.

in the 259 other professional hockey games this 20 year old has played, he's been much more of a "playmaker" than a goal scorer

 

[azcanuck]

thank you for clarifying. What you wrote did not specify "playmaking ineptitude", and seemed to be posing the question of wether i was an "anderson apologist".

I guess your definition of playmaking is one that equates to assist totals alone... i wonder, does it differentiate between primary and secondary?

Is Edmundson now a "playmaking dman" because he had 3 assists in 4 games?

e.

too small of a sample size. Any NHL player can pull that off.

But if I told you a center man in the NHL had 0 assists in 20 playoff games and he wasnt a defensive specialist what would you say?

And I would say it's true I see KK more of a playmaker. But the point I was making was right now, in the playoffs he's not creating for his linemates. Virtually nothing in the Peg series. Yet you claimed otherwise, and provided some obscure analytics about breaking out of his zone.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Reading this thread is hilarious
It's the same people saying Bergevin is a great gm and that Danault is a top 6 center worth 5.5m/6m for 6-7 years

Yet they put KK down the drain as a bust while he always plays with the shittiest bricks of this team for years.

Paul Byron and ' Josh Power1goalin22games Anderson'.

But yeah KK is a bust while playing with the worst linemates and have shit icetime while being extremely young in the nhl and still 1 of the best goal scorer in the playoff at his age.

You can't make this shit up , its the same people. I guess we love mediocrity in Montreal nowdays.

Atleast he's not extended for 7 years at 5.5m and he's not about to get an albatross contract because he put his stick sometimes in front of star players while having 0 offense

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wild prediction... Our fan base is expecting too much from him too early cause Suzuki and Caufield are doing better around the same age. He was drafted as a long term prospect and we rushed him and this has created expectations and pressure that would not be there today if we didn't rush him. I feel he is going to have a smaller prime window and it's more like age 24-30 ish. If we are not careful and let him grow at his own rate, we will end up giving up on him and when he turns 24/25+, he busts out on another team and then we blame the GM when some of us are part of the high expectation pressure cooker. It's not the GM's job to listen to the fans on this but it does create a general storm cloud that is distracting and if he don't have thick skin, it's negative energy like what happened to Drouin

Let him develop at his own rate like most other teams do to their young players.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Reading this thread is hilarious
It's the same people saying Bergevin is a great gm and that Danault is a top 6 center worth 5.5m/6m for 6-7 years

Yet they put KK down the drain as a bust while he always plays with the shittiest bricks of this team.

Paul Byron and ' Josh Power1goalin22games Anderson'.

But yeah KK is a bust while playing with the worst linemates and have shit icetime while being extremely young in the nhl and still 1 of the best goal scorer in the playoff at his age.

You can't make this shit up , its the same people. I guess we love mediocrity in Montreal nowdays.

Atleast he's not extended for 7 years at 5.5m and he's not about to get an albatross contract because he put his stick sometimes in front of star players while having 0 offense

Who's saying Bergevin is a "great" GM? Choose your exaggeration carefully or you will be accuse of not being able to comprehend well. It's not the same people BTW and one is not tied to the other

I think you are all over the place with that post bud. I do agree with your KK narrative though. He's not a bust and he does need better wingers. However, the coaches are clearly focused on the intangibles before offense. We can't blame them too much for that cause last thing we want is spoiled kids like the way the Lafs manage their young kids. The minute they face adversity after a prolonged do whatever you want on offense ride, they cry. I have no problem if we groom KK like how Couturier was groomed.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

We can celebrate when he wins the xGF Art Ross trophy instead of the actual one

hahahahahahahaha you're right our 20 year old prospect will never win the Art Ross what a LOSER! Can't believe we drafted this dude when we could have perenial art ross and point producer Brady Tkachuk .