Confirmed with Link: Jeff Skinner re-signs. 8 years, $9M AAV.

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
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Whether Botts secretly wanted to bridge him or not, the facts are he did not have the cap space to offer him a richer, longer-term deal. Not at the time.

What?

How much do you think he would have demanded to sign long term?

He signed for $3.65M against the cap last year and the Sabres had $2.88M in unused cap space at the end of the year.

Botts could have signed him long term. He made the choice not to pay the price to do so because he was worried that Reinhart wouldn't be worth the money.

Lots of people felt that a bridge would blow up in Botts' face. And it appears that it may just happen.
 
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haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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What?

How much do you think he would have demanded to sign long term?

He signed for $3.65M against the cap last year and the Sabres had $2.88M in unused cap space at the end of the year.

Botts could have signed him long term. He made the choice not to pay the price to do so because he was worried that Reinhart wouldn't be worth the money.

Lots of people felt that a bridge would blow up in Botts' face. And it appears that it may just happen.

I presume something based around the rumored demand of $5.5M might have done it.

Cancelling Berglund's cap hit helps you get that $2.8M in space.

Mittelstadt missing his bonuses also helps.

The situation in September, for those of us watching it closely, would have required cap clearing moves if Sam had signed for anything even marginally higher than he did. It would have to be a very cheap deal or there would have to be other moves.
 

Fezzy126

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I presume something based around the rumored demand of $5.5M might have done it.

Cancelling Berglund's cap hit helps you get that $2.8M in space.

Mittelstadt missing his bonuses also helps.

The situation in September, for those of us watching it closely, would have required cap clearing moves if Sam had signed for anything even marginally higher than he did. It would have to be a very cheap deal or there would have to be other moves.

 

Fezzy126

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It was a bridge because the GM didn't have the foresight to expect him to continue to develop and lock him up long term to a deal that would be a bargain before it was over.

Right... There's plenty of opportunities to post low hanging digs against the gm, but this is just some conjured up theory. It's just as likely that Sam was betting on himself and not willing to sign long term since he was coming off of a 50 point season with pedestrian ES point totals.

If you find me one piece of credible evidence that shows that Sam's camp wanted a long term deal I'll gladly change my opinion.
 

haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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With around $4.5M in performance bonuses pending on the table, plus you need space for callups.

If you sign him for $5M in September, you're either planning on carrying forward cap penalties, or you're planning on clearing cap. As it happened, Berglund did the latter for them.
 

GOALOFSSON

Game Changer
Jun 6, 2018
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"Great shape" is an overstatement. A lot of unknowns, but the premise doesn't look good to me.

I'd argue we're already seeing the results of a cap crunch. There was literally not enough money last September under the cap to extend Reinhart to a reasonable deal. Hence dealing from weakness. We might have saved a couple million there if we believe the rumored asking prices vs what I think he'll get next deal.

For my part, this is how I mentally model the future. If we resign our (developed) core to what they should be able to demand, two years from now we have:

Skinner 9 Eichel 10 Reinhart 7.5
x - x - x
x - x - x
x - x - Okposo 6
x, x

Dahlin 10 - Ristolainen 5.4
x - Montour 5.5
x - x
x

x
x

88M cap
53.4M spoken for by seven contracts.
34.5M for sixteen contracts -- 10 forwards, 4 defense, 2 goalies

Let's build it out.

Step One: First, let's do the easy stuff -- $1M apiece for all backups/extra skaters -- 1D, 2Fs, 1G. Now you have 30.5M for 8F, 3D, and a starting G.
Step Two: Then make sure not to skimp on the most important position. Let's say your starting G costs at least $5.5M. There's 15 goalies making $4.9 or more now. So we scale up mildly for inflation.
Step Three: Let's be reasonably optimistic and assume that 2 ELCs make the roster, without any bonuses, in addition to your $1M backups. Say 1F, 1D. Now you have 6 players total making a bare million. Maybe this includes 7OA this year.

Now you have $23M to fill out the middle 7 forwards, 2D. That's $2.55 per. This includes Mittelstadt, Nylander, Thompson, Asplund, Oloffsson, Pilut, Borgen, if you're counting on any of them.

Now there's a ton of spots left and a ton of cap to imagine different scenarios. But globally, you do see the parameters of the pressure the GM is going to be under. This is going to be the kind of team where the middle of the lineup -- the whole second and third lines and #4-5 D, basically -- is going to have to come in at less than $3M a pop. That's not a premise from which you can build great depth.

Or else the goaltending will have to be really cheap. Or else somebody will have to move, like maybe Reinhart. Or else Dahlin doesn't develop like we hope. None of these are good options.

***

Another way to think of it is this: how many teams have their top 5 contracts eating up >48% of cap? In my model, that would be Reinhart, Okposo, Skinner, Dahlin, Eichel -- 42.5M of an 88M cap.

To compare against last year's $80M cap, the question would be based on who has 5 deals accounting for $38.5M. The answer is three: Chicago ($39.8), Edmonton ($38.5), Pittsburgh ($38.9). The theme there is nobody won a playoff round, and Pittsburgh and Chicago are only on the list because they each won a bunch of cups and they're paying for it now.

For ****s and giggles, the Bruins top 5 deals came in at 34.5% of cap. The Blues top 5 deals will come in at 40% of the cap. Those are teams that can afford to be deep.

So yeah, if they retain this core, they will have to be among the most top-heavy teams salary-wise in the league. And that doesn't add anyone to last year's ****show -- it just basically counts on Dahlin and Krueger to be the difference.

If your premise is this core just needs a bunch of quality depth behind them to flourish, they won't get it without a lot of bargain deals elsewhere.

My guess is they're aware of this, and the plan is to really squeeze Reinhart and Dahlin when they come up. I don't know how likely that is to work.

Quite a few flaws here, the main one assuming Okposo is so hard to move in two years that you would entertain trading Reinhart instead.

Dude, what the hell are you even talking about? You do realize that this season the Lightning, Sharks, and Leafs will all likely have greater than 50% of their cap dedicated to their top 5 players? I'd kill to have any of their rosters...

I've seen these long term roster projections since the day Eichel was drafted. The day we can't afford to pay all of our amazing players is hopefully the same day that we don't have to draft in the top 10. On that day I'll worry about the cap. Do you think Toronto is worried about the cap, or are they thinking about flipping one of their really good forwards for a young defenseman on an ELC?

I can see Tampa, but the other two?
 

Fezzy126

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May 10, 2017
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Quite a few flaws here, the main one assuming Okposo is so hard to move in two years that you would entertain trading Reinhart instead.



I can see Tampa, but the other two?

Sharks top 5 salaries:
  • Karlsson - $11.5M
  • Burns - $8M
  • Vlasic - $7M
  • Couture - $8M
  • Kane - $7M

That's $41.5M, or exactly 50% of the projected $83M cap this upcoming season.

The Leafs have:
  • Matthews - $11.6M
  • Tavares - $11M
  • Nylander - $6.9M
  • Marleau - $6.25M
  • Marner - ????
Marner's salary will push them way over in this little exercise.
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
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Quite a few flaws here, the main one assuming Okposo is so hard to move in two years that you would entertain trading Reinhart instead.

You can easily move Okposo and Reinhart, if that suits you. You can easily move neither. I don't know why you'd say that's my "assumption" when my roster lists both of them.
 

haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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Sharks top 5 salaries:
  • Karlsson - $11.5M
  • Burns - $8M
  • Vlasic - $7M
  • Couture - $8M
  • Kane - $7M

That's $41.5M, or exactly 50% of the projected $83M cap this upcoming season.

The Leafs have:
  • Matthews - $11.6M
  • Tavares - $11M
  • Nylander - $6.9M
  • Marleau - $6.25M
  • Marner - ????
Marner's salary will push them way over in this little exercise.

And we'll see who they go into camp with. More importantly, we'll see how they finish the year, both in terms of roster and standings.

Toronto doesn't have enough cap room to sign Marner alone right now, let alone the 4 other guys after that who they'll need to fill a roster.

San Jose has 12M to sign 6 forwards, including Nyqvist, Meier, Pavelski, who all scored 60+ points for them last year. If they choose to let one go, they might get the other 2 for $12M and still have 4 roster spots to fill.

That's why I didn't bother analyzing speculative rosters for next year. Both those teams will need to make moves to be cap compliant. They might choose to remain top-heavy, they might sell high on somebody and refill the depth chart.

And if they do remain top-heavy, it may cost them competitively if they start with cheap bodies on their second line.
 
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GOALOFSSON

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You can easily move Okposo and Reinhart, if that suits you. You can easily move neither. I don't know why you'd say that's my "assumption" when my roster lists both of them.

You do assume it otherwise Okposo and his 6M is a non-issue, thus your argument for worrying about the cap is mostly for nothing. Plenty of other scrubs taking up cap space that will be coming off the book or moved. Like I said, multiple flaws.

Sharks top 5 salaries:
  • Karlsson - $11.5M
  • Burns - $8M
  • Vlasic - $7M
  • Couture - $8M
  • Kane - $7M

That's $41.5M, or exactly 50% of the projected $83M cap this upcoming season.

The Leafs have:
  • Matthews - $11.6M
  • Tavares - $11M
  • Nylander - $6.9M
  • Marleau - $6.25M
  • Marner - ????
Marner's salary will push them way over in this little exercise.

Nothing I'd take over what we have, both in skill, age, and our lower cap hits.

Karlsson deal may make Dahlins a bit higher, but it's a good problem to have to pay good players.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
78,718
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Wow, and I thought I had laid out the most conservative assumptions I could. I projected three contracts and left everything else an X.

Put it this way: compliance buyouts, dumping Risto and replacing him with a cheaper comparable player, and getting a legit starting goaltender for $1M, are all more liberal assumptions.
You’re assumptions aren’t conservative. They’re a made up paradigm based on your “mental modeling’ of the future. I wasn't making assumptions. I was pointing out just some of the several things that could play out between now and then. Like possible impacts of a new CBA. But I’m not assuming they take place.


Your entire “mental modeling” exercise is very arbitrary and designed to be overly negative (not conservative) to frame things in the worst possible fashion. Trying to make it seem as though we have an impending cap issue.

Starting with your framing of the situation on defense. We currently have 9 dmen (from roster players to prospects) who could fill those spots 3 seasons from now. McCabe, Pilut, Borgen, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey, Dougherty, Laaksonen and Samuelsson. Yet you only mentioned two (Pilut/Borgen) And make it seem as if it would be real hard for them to make it. The other 7 you ignored completely. Its an extremely negative take to basically ignore the 9 in house options as possibilities.

You are either intentionally ignoring it or really don’t understand that our management has been working to set up a feeder system in Rochester. One that will produce the very inexpensive depth you are clamoring for. Developing players they acquire via the draft, signed as undrafted free agents or added in trades. Thats the young talent they are going to develop to become our future inexpensive depth.
 
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haseoke39

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You’re assumptions aren’t conservative. They’re a made up paradigm based on your “mental modeling’ of the future. I wasn't making assumptions. I was pointing out just some of the several things that could play out between now and then. Like possible impacts of a new CBA. But I’m not assuming they take place.


Your entire “mental modeling” exercise is very arbitrary and designed to be overly negative (not conservative) to frame things in the worst possible fashion. Trying to make it seem as though we have an impending cap issue.

Starting with your framing of the situation on defense. We currently have 9 dmen (from roster players to prospects) who could fill those spots 3 seasons from now. McCabe, Pilut, Borgen, Bryson, Fitzgerald, Hickey, Dougherty, Laaksonen and Samuelsson. Yet you only mentioned two (Pilut/Borgen) And make it seem as if it would be real hard for them to make it. The other 7 you ignored completely. Its an extremely negative take to basically ignore the 9 in house options as possibilities.

You are either intentionally ignoring it or really don’t understand that our management has been working to set up a feeder system in Rochester. One that will produce the very inexpensive depth you are clamoring for. Developing players they acquire via the draft, signed as undrafted free agents or added in trades. Thats the young talent they are going to develop to become our future inexpensive depth.

Positive things I did in this model:
- Assume 6(!) players at $1M. That's baked in. Seriously, how many more of those do you think is fair?
- Assume no bad contracts the next two summers
- Assume no problems resigning the players we want. In fact, assume lower values than I've seen tossed around here for Reinhart and Dahlin.

Things I didn't do:
- Assume anything about anyone not in the system or on the roster. For better or worse. You want me to try and be negative, christ almighty, I can do much better than this.

Negative assumptions:
-- Which??

Things I didn't do but I probably would if I were trying to be honest and not just try to mollify homers: With his job potentially on the line based on the team improving next year, assume Botts signs multiple guys this summer to 3+ years, likely cutting into that space. Assume Risto won't be moved without bringing back a replacement, at not much cap savings. Assume neither side opts out of the CBA until it expires in 2022, or moreover question whether compliance buyouts will even be on the table if there aren't significant salary cuts demanded. Assume Buffalo will have to pay a higher premium to keep their talent on a bottom 5 team in a bottom 5 market in a high tax state.

About the pipeline: You're arguing something outside my argument entirely. My point isn't whether we can find quality players. My point is whether we can afford them. If they make the roster anytime over the next two years, they'll need to be resigned past their ELCs. You can list two of them or twenty, it doesn't really matter, there's only so many spots to pay for.

Boil it down even further: Assume Ristolainen goes away if that's what you wish. Assume Okpsoso goes away if that's what you wish. Assume the only contracts in the world are Dahlin's, Skinner's, Eichel's, and Reinhart's. That's ~$36.5/$88M. Or 41.5% of the cap for four players.

That will make us one of the most top heavy rosters, financially, in the league. I'm not running the numbers again without Okposo to try and remake that point.

So if the argument is that our core needs a lot deeper support cast, it will have to come unusually cheap. If you think we're set up especially well to do that, great, I'm not arguing with you.

And your snark is really unpleasant.
 
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haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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You do assume it otherwise Okposo and his 6M is a non-issue, thus your argument for worrying about the cap is mostly for nothing. Plenty of other scrubs taking up cap space that will be coming off the book or moved. Like I said, multiple flaws.

Really, you're missing the forest for the trees. My argument is not dependent on Okposo. Ignore Okposo if you like. See my post to joshjull above. How many teams in the NHL put 41.5% of the cap into four players? I'm not running the numbers again. This is going to be a top-heavy team financially.
 

GOALOFSSON

Game Changer
Jun 6, 2018
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Really, you're missing the forest for the trees. My argument is not dependent on Okposo. Ignore Okposo if you like. See my post to joshjull above. How many teams in the NHL put 41.5% of the cap into four players? I'm not running the numbers again. This is going to be a top-heavy team financially.

Is being a top heavy team a bad thing? Paying good players means that you have good players. I'd also wait a year or two (or even the rest of the current offseason) before trying to say we're going to be one of the only teams with these top heavy contracts.

Ours aren't even that bad. Ignoring Okposo makes this even less of an issue.
 
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Jame

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With around $4.5M in performance bonuses pending on the table, plus you need space for callups.

If you sign him for $5M in September, you're either planning on carrying forward cap penalties, or you're planning on clearing cap. As it happened, Berglund did the latter for them.

This Reinhart cap argument is nonsense. There was cap space to sign him long term. The end.

(And you can exceed the cap by 7.5% with performance bonus payments throughout the year)
 

JLewyB

Registered User
May 6, 2013
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So unless things have changed, LTIR doesn’t count against the cap after the start of the year if you’re above the cap. That’s why Toronto traded for Horton and got rid of Clarkson. The CBA also allows leeway to pay bonuses above the cap hit. I believe it’s 4 million or so. So bonuses didn’t matter and the injuries inflated the cap hit we took but we didn’t need to count it if we went above the cap. Aka we had plenty of money to sign Reinhart.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,233
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Rochester, NY
Right... There's plenty of opportunities to post low hanging digs against the gm, but this is just some conjured up theory. It's just as likely that Sam was betting on himself and not willing to sign long term since he was coming off of a 50 point season with pedestrian ES point totals.

If you find me one piece of credible evidence that shows that Sam's camp wanted a long term deal I'll gladly change my opinion.

The defense that Reinhart was betting on himself is just as conjured up.

There was a number that Botterill could have gotten to that would have locked Reinhart up long term.

He was unwilling to go there, in part because of the cap dumps he took on via trade like Pominville, Sobotka, Berglund, and Hunwick.
 
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Jame

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So unless things have changed, LTIR doesn’t count against the cap after the start of the year if you’re above the cap. That’s why Toronto traded for Horton and got rid of Clarkson. The CBA also allows leeway to pay bonuses above the cap hit. I believe it’s 4 million or so. So bonuses didn’t matter and the injuries inflated the cap hit we took but we didn’t need to count it if we went above the cap. Aka we had plenty of money to sign Reinhart.


Correct
 

haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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This Reinhart cap argument is nonsense. There was cap space to sign him long term. The end.

(And you can exceed the cap by 7.5% with performance bonus payments throughout the year)

The bonus cushion effectively dictates the maximum amount you can go theoretically, temporarily over the cap with bonuses. It doesn't forgive anything. Once the bonuses are finalized, the amount you went over the cap is subtracted from next year's cap.

As I said explicitly and exactly before, Botterill couldn't have signed Reinhart to a higher deal without either cutting cap somewhere else or planning for a cap penalty going forward. If your point is that he could've planned on exceeding the cap and taking the penalty, sure. My point stands. Even with the low bridge deal Sam got, an optimistic perspective at Dahlin and Mittelstadt would've said they'd be over the cap by the end of the year. Mittelstadt underperformed and Berglund retired, but that wasn't Botts pulling strings.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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Florida
The bonus cushion effectively dictates the maximum amount you can go theoretically over the cap with bonuses. It doesn't forgive anything. Once the bonuses are achieved, the amount you went over the cap is subtracted from next year's cap.

That's correct.

And that clarification does zilch to support the notion that the cap was a roadblock to a long term Reinhart deal.

IF, Botterill felt the cap was preventing a long term deal with Reinhart... that's an even worse indictment of Botts ability than failing to get a long term deal done with Reinhart because of performance assessment/future projections reasons....

As I said explicitly and exactly before, Botterill couldn't have signed Reinhart to a higher deal without either cutting cap somewhere else or planning for a cap penalty going forward. If your point is that he could've planned on exceeding the cap and taking the penalty, sure. My point stands.

And that statement remains factually incorrect.
 

haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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And that statement remains factually incorrect.

Howso?

Even with a low deal, Dahlin's and Mittelstadt's bonuses would've put them over the cap (had Berglund not retired). Add another $2M over with a long-term deal. At the time, he had no idea Berglund would retire, so either Botts presumes his high picks can't reach their bonuses, he plans on moving out dollars elsewhere, or he plans on going over.
 

BloFan4Life

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NY
Contract looks worse with the cap being in the 81-82 million dollar range. % of cap is used a lot in variables (which it should be) and this increases it even higher.
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
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Florida
Howso?

Even with a low deal, Dahlin's and Mittelstadt's bonuses would've put them over the cap (had Berglund not retired). Add another $2M over with a long-term deal. At the time, he had no idea Berglund would retire, so either Botts presumes his high picks can't reach their bonuses, he plans on moving out dollars elsewhere, or he plans on going over.

We have 20 million in cap space right now... "planning on going over" isn't a thought process, it's an outcome. One that should've had absolutely ZERO to do with Reinhart negotiations.

The belief that we couldn't get a long term deal with Reinhart because of the cap, is a massive indictment you've placed on Botts... I actually give him slightly more credit than you (which is surprising).
 

haseoke39

Registered User
Mar 29, 2011
13,938
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We have 20 million in cap space right now... "planning on going over" isn't a thought process, it's an outcome. One that should've had absolutely ZERO to do with Reinhart negotiations.

The belief that we couldn't get a long term deal with Reinhart because of the cap, is a massive indictment you've placed on Botts... I actually give him slightly more credit than you (which is surprising).

So my statement was correct, you just want to frame it differently.

I respect that it was literally possible to sign that contract without the league nullifying it. It just would've had the exact consequences I stated originally.

Yes, planning on going over is a "thought process." It reflects a mental state. It is a consequence that GMs should continue to contemplate, and form mental ideas about, and decide what to prioritize based on its likelihood.
 

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