Jaromir Jagr vs. Alexander Ovechkin

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Fair point. Though I would argue


As soon as he had that responsibility?

The first time was in 1994-95. As far as I'm aware, there were no rumblings about attitude issues.

In fact, I don't think there were any until a year or two before the 21st century. By that time he had already won 3 Art Ross trophies.

Even if there were, it certainly didn't affect his on ice performance.

As for

Jagr wasn't a superstar with any expectations going in to 94/95. He had never even received a hart vote in his career or been top 4 in RW AST. He was good, very good, and expected to develop further with Lemieux out, but it wasn't anywhere close to the level of expectations/pressure a real franchise player has. He became a superstar that season but then Lemieux obviously returned and he was shielded again.

Of course in general it didn't really matter what happened off the ice because Jagr was so great/talented. He was going to "get his". Against 99.9% of players in history I wouldn't even bring it up because Jagr is that much better. But OV is just as great and has a list of individual accolades/records which is just as great (actually longer/better). When the players are that close, the little things like attitude, etc matter.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jagr made it past the 2nd round five times. As a 20-year old in 1992 he scored three straight GWG goals, two to finish off the first overall Rangers and then in Game One of the semi-finals vs. Boston, all with Mario out with an broken hand. He had 24 points in 21 games that year as a passenger. If you're trying to tout Ovechkin over Jagr, best leave out the playoffs altogether if you want to help your case.

My Best-Carey

Jagr could do it when he had others to carry him, as the main guy and weapon he would fail.

1 goal in his final 40 playoff games? (I know he was older but I think it fair since people seem to praise his time in the league since he came back.)

As for greater...well Ovechkin is going to score 900 career goals breaking a Gretzky record while finishing with more Harts and Playoff MVPs... Jagr doesn't have much of a case, even if he finishes with a couple hundred more points.

 

[Nasti]

Maybe it's because at the time there were no expectations of Jagr to become what he was. So Jagr's performance was perceived much more positively back then.

In hindsight though, his first few years are pretty underwhelming compared to what he would become. Especially when you compare how other players of similar calibre started off their careers. Crosby and Ovechkin for instance, were superstars right out of the gate, finishing among the leaders in goals and/or points.

Imagine if Crosby's rookie season was around 50-60 points. Great for anyone else, dissapointing for someone touted as one of the best prospects of all time.

I think if Jagr had a similar level of expectation back then, people would have wanted more the first few years.

Ovechkin and Crosby didn’t have to fight for ice time with the likes of Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Tocchet, Recchi, Mullen, Trottier, Cullen, etc.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ovechkin and Crosby didn’t have to fight for ice time with the likes of Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Tocchet, Recchi, Mullen, Trottier, Cullen, etc.

Goes both ways though. Without that stacked team, Jagr doesn't have any cups. He had the luxury of being 8th in scoring on his own team and winning a cup. Has to be the only top 10 forward ever who has had that luxury.

 

[frisco]

How many times did Jagr pass the 2nd round without Lemieux? One time as a 40 year old passenger on Boston. Playoffs don't help Jagr unless you are giving him credit for riding Lemieux's coattails.

Rangers were up 2-1 against the Penguins in Round Two in 1992 without an injured Mario. Jagr dominated the rest of the series as Pittsburgh took three straight off of New York to advance against the Bruins. The only time (that's once in a 17-year career) Ovechkin made it past the second round Kuznetsov was the more effective forward and Holtby was the real reason.

My Best-Carey

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Rangers were up 2-1 against the Penguins in Round Two in 1992 without an injured Mario. Jagr dominated the rest of the series as Pittsburgh took three straight off of New York to advance against the Bruins. The only time (that's once in a 17-year career) Ovechkin made it past the second round Kuznetsov was the more effective forward and Holtby was the real reason.

My Best-Carey

That's great, but overall he was still 4th on the Penguins in playoff scoring which isn't anything special. But I guess it's better than 8th like he was in 1991. Kuznetsov might have been "more effective" but OV wasn't a passenger like Jagr.

 

[Habs10025]

Jaromir Jagr.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That's great, but overall he was still 4th on the Penguins in playoff scoring which isn't anything special. But I guess it's better than 8th like he was in 1991. Kuznetsov might have been "more effective" but OV wasn't a passenger like Jagr.

If you rewatch Kuzy's exploits in those playoffs, it's often because two defenders were focused on Ovechkin.

In this one Ovie is standing at the blue line. Two Pens are skating towards Ovie, coming within 10 feet of him, trying to prevent the breakout pass from going to Ovie. This gives Kuznetsov a wide open zone entry.

 

[Bcap88]

Jagr and it’s not even close

 

[Midnight Judges]

The only time (that's once in a 17-year career) Ovechkin made it past the second round Kuznetsov was the more effective forward and Holtby was the real reason.

My Best-Carey

Yeah that's just plain false, which is why Ovie won the Conn Smythe. Precisely zero of the Conn Smythe voters had Holtby ahead of Ovechkin on their ballots:

Conn Smythe Voting results: Ovechkin received 13 of 18 first-place votes

Evgeny Kuznetsov received the other five. Vegas Golden Knights goalie Marc-Andre Fleury received two third-place votes.

nhl.nbcsports.com

What you are asserting here is pure history revision.

 

[waitin425]

Voted Jagr with the potential for Ovechkin to take over. If OV gets a couple more 50 goal seasons and passes Gretzky, I'm not sure how he isn't considered better.

Jagr is amazing though....can't wait for Slaf to get started and eclipse him in 22 years!

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Exactly how the normal Ovechkin discussions go. A bunch of try hards screaming from their computers about Ovechkins goal scoring and individual awards.

A player can be ridiculously good at one thing while also not being a complete hockey player.

Ovechkin is a great goal scorer but doesn’t come close to Jagr as an overall hockey player.

Easily Jagr here.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

To revisit the "is Jagr a power forward?" question, I dug up one of my old NHL yearbooks from storage. Here's the top ten list after the 2001-02 season:

There's no sign of Jagr. Granted, this is just one source, and it's at one specific point in time, but I think this is a good (approximate) summary of who the top power forwards were perceived to be in the early 2000's.

Note that even John LeClair - an enormous player who scored many of his goals parked in front of the net - has been excluded, presumably because he didn't really use his strength to batter opponents. (Also note that Joe Thornton, at the time, could be quite aggressive, before transforming his playing style after the lockout).

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Goes both ways though. Without that stacked team, Jagr doesn't have any cups. He had the luxury of being 8th in scoring on his own team and winning a cup. Has to be the only top 10 forward ever who has had that luxury.

Howe

 

[Regal]

To revisit the "is Jagr a power forward?" question, I dug up one of my old NHL yearbooks from storage. Here's the top ten list after the 2001-02 season:

View attachment 576768

There's no sign of Jagr. Granted, this is just one source, and it's at one specific point in time, but I think this is a good (approximate) summary of who the top power forwards were perceived to be in the early 2000's.

Note that even John LeClair - an enormous player who scored many of his goals parked in front of the net - has been excluded, presumably because he didn't really use his strength to batter opponents. (Also note that Joe Thornton, at the time, could be quite aggressive, before transforming his playing style after the lockout).

I always thought that he changed after Lindros tuned him. He was obviously a great player regardless but I wonder how he’d be remembered if he kept his physicality more, and also shot more like his early days .

 

[Rygu]

Ovi is the better pure goal scorer but with the puck on each of their sticks, Jagr by a decent margin.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Howe

On his team Howe was 3rd in 1952, 1st in 54 and 1st in 55. 1950 yeah 0pts but he only played 1 game so that's kind of harsh.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Jagr

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Both were brutal in their own zone. Ovie at least played physical, unlike Jagr.

 

[Bluesguru]

780 goals in 1274 games? In the era he’s played in? That’s crazy. Jagr is great but Ovie is an indestructible force. He’s a machine that just keeps going. Gretzkys goal record seemed untouchable back in the day and he’s going to beat it. What else do you want?

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr now, but when (and this is a when, not if) Ovi gets the goals record, how can you not give it to him?

I guess that's why 57% took the Jagr now and forever option because the question asks about the best player not best goal scorer.

Who is the greater all-time player now? And who do you think by the time their careers are over?

 

[wetcoast]

That's a little unfair since he was obviously above a ppg before he got old.

Ovechkin is under a ppg in the playoffs himself. It's rare for anyone to stay over that threshold for their entire careers.

Just for context this is how Jagr and Ovechkin both compare at the same age 36 in the playoffs.

Jagr 169-77-104-181
Ovi 147-72-69-141


Pretty hard to give an edge for Ovi in this department even with a Conn Smythe.

Can't wait for Crosby to be under a p/gp for career in the playoffs when he's 44 and had several runs in his 40s and blame him for being a support guy when it matters.

It probably won't happen as Crosby has 201 points in 181 playoff games and is still elite in the playoffs as far as titling the ice goes.

 

[wetcoast]

Thats not a good argument.

Ovi had 15 years on virtually the best team in the NHL and made it as far as the conference finals once.

Why should we expect Jagr to succeed even once carrying some sh** Penguins and Rangers teams to the playoffs at the lowest seeds? I mean if Ovi needed 15 years on stacked teams to reach the conference finals once, it would take a miracle for Jagr to turn any his Lemiex-less, Capr or Rangers teams into Stanley cup contenders by himself.

It can definitely be just as big accomplishment to carry a lesser team to the playoffs against the odds, as leading a stacked contender to the cup finals!

Its just a flawed argument to make.

Jagr was also 18 that season.

At age 18 Ovi was playing for Moscow Dynamo and doing what to his legacy exactly?

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr wasn't a superstar with any expectations going in to 94/95. He had never even received a hart vote in his career or been top 4 in RW AST. He was good, very good, and expected to develop further with Lemieux out, but it wasn't anywhere close to the level of expectations/pressure a real franchise player has. He became a superstar that season but then Lemieux obviously returned and he was shielded again.

Of course in general it didn't really matter what happened off the ice because Jagr was so great/talented. He was going to "get his". Against 99.9% of players in history I wouldn't even bring it up because Jagr is that much better. But OV is just as great and has a list of individual accolades/records which is just as great (actually longer/better). When the players are that close, the little things like attitude, etc matter.

This isn't exactly true though as he was second in the NHL in ESP in 93-94 and the "breakout" in 94-95 wasn't unexpected at all.

As for the all-star voting up to 93-94 it was a golden age of elite RW's in the league at the time.

Ovi had the better start to his career that's not in question at all but Jagr's start wasn't exactly weak when given some context either.

 

[wetcoast]

Goes both ways though. Without that stacked team, Jagr doesn't have any cups. He had the luxury of being 8th in scoring on his own team and winning a cup. Has to be the only top 10 forward ever who has had that luxury.

Lafleur was 10th in team scoring when he won his first SC and heck Gordy Howe played a single game one year when the Wings won, these things do happen.

Jagr was awesome in the 2000 playoffs when his 8th seeded team lost to Philly in the second round after destroying the first seed Capitals in the first round.

Playoffs isn't exactly an advantage for Ovi as has been pointed out.