Confirmed with Link: James Neal traded to Nashville for Patric Hornqvist and Nick Spaling

[stardog]

But with Crosby, it's been a common occurrence over the past four series. And no I don't think he should receive a pass more than Neal. Sid should have FAR more expectations placed upon him. Thus he should produce much better. That's logical.

Dear God. You're continuing to miss the point entirely. You posed a question. I provided an explanation.
Yet all you see is me defending Crosby's performance, which I have yet to do.
Furthermore, you're comparing the two as if they were the same player. Which they are not.

And no...I also never stated that Crosby shouldn't be held to a higher standard. He is.

But given that, HIS performance in the playoffs compared to Neals are nowhere the same level of crap. And given how much better Crosby is than what Neal is, I would expect Neal to have a poor performance in the playoffs again MUCH more than I would Sid.

The ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION is in future expected performance. That is the only place where your answer lies. Why would the best player in the world get a free pass while Neal does not? Because it is much more logical to expect ANY best player in the world to not repeat that performance (in ANY sport) than it would be for any other person.

 

[Fraction Jackson]

Is that right? You think you're real lucid and profound, ok buddy. And let me reiterate that Neal was the best line mate that Geno ever had. There's ample proof to suggest that. Neal is one linemate, maybe the issue is with the 3rd wheel on the line. In fact if there's an issue logic would suggest that's where the problem lies. Not with Geno and Neal.

I'm not horribly profound, I just remember what I said a page or two ago.

Don't get me wrong - Neal's a talented player. He probably is the most talented player that Malkin played with on a regular, day-in and day-out basis. I think we can meet in the middle there, despite my being sassy about it.

Seriously - it's not like we gave up nothing. But he's got flaws. Sometimes really good players aren't the best fits for each other in one way or another. Sometimes things don't work out. Paul Coffey was maybe the most talented defenseman the Pens ever had - but after we won in 91, we ditched him and still won another cup. Sometimes it's not about having one elite skill or a couple elite skills, it's about fitting in with the team and the way the team needs to work together. It's about being complementary, not just stacking skill on top of skill.

So, to reiterate what I said, and that I said I said, and that I quoted - actually, let me quote it again:

It does not necessarily, logically, follow that Neal was not a good fit for Malkin to put us over the top and win in the playoffs due to the above. But, similarly, your premise doesn't work either - nothing proves that Neal was the ideal fit for Malkin, except for regular season points, which, as you may note, have nothing to do with the playoffs, either.

So, let's go over this again: just because Neal might be the most totally rad and awesome player to be a fixture on Malkin's line in terms of production, doesn't necessarily prove that he is the guy that the team needs to be on that line, or that he is the best fit stylistically or system-wise for Malkin. Nor does it follow that just because Malkin did fine with glorified 3rd liners that said glorified third liners are the best fits, either. Maybe it's the case that Neal actually is the best guy in the world for Malkin! And maybe it's not. But nothing you have asserted here provides anything resembling concrete evidence for him being the best fit, which is - again, you can go back and see for yourself - what I was pointing out in the first place.

 

[Michael8771*]

Dear God. You're continuing to miss the point entirely. You posed a question. I provided an explanation.
Yet all you see is me defending Crosby's performance, which I have yet to do.
Furthermore, you're comparing the two as if they were the same player. Which they are not.

And no...I also never stated that Crosby shouldn't be held to a higher standard. He is.

But given that, HIS performance in the playoffs compared to Neals are nowhere the same level of crap. And given how much better Crosby is than what Neal is, I would expect Neal to have a poor performance in the playoffs again MUCH more than I would Sid.

The ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION is in future expected performance. That is the only place where your answer lies. Why would the best player in the world get a free pass while Neal does not? Because it is much more logical to expect ANY best player in the world to not repeat that performance (in ANY sport) than it would be for any other person.

Um, no I'm not, I'm saying that Crosby (logically speaking) should be criticized more, and clearly that hasn't been the case. I expected Sid to score more than one goal, did you?


Second point in bold: And yet he did in FOUR SUCCESSIVE playoff series. At what point do you start to question him come crunch time?

 

[madinsomniac]

You used the word "shortsighted" and then provided a shortsighted example to prove your point.
Trading Crosby to get a net front presence is absurd. He is an obvious part of the identified core and the pieces (like Neal) around him are not. You use those pieces to create the best possible group to maximize your chances at winning the cup.
Obviously, Neal was deemed expendable. Crosby, obviously is not.
You don't have to like the trade...I understand the reasoning behind why...but the example you gave is silly and in no way justifies hating the trade from that standpoint.

It was an extreme example made to point out we took an obvious downgrade in talent to fill a perceived hole and created another hole in doing so.... it wasn't an actual suggestion....

Neal may well have been a terrible teammate, and maybe he had to be moved, but his value is high in the league because he scored 40 goals and has a great shot. We didn t maximize our value for him. we didn't come close. we took a guy with half of his production, who is smaller who has 3 goals in 24 playoff games... we got no cap relief...


Neal was lazy... no doubt... watch the first half dozen games back from his first injury to see what he was capable of... it was amazing.. except that he tended to live off of Malkin's coattails... sometimes you don't need to shake up the talent when a coach has failed... you need to coach up the guys you have. we are doing the typical knee jerk things we do as a franchise... it rarely works for us

 

[lastcupever75]

I was looking forward to seeing how some players would do under another coach and system.

as was I.

according to most on here Db was the worst possible coach in the world. what if that contributed to the how neal played.

maybe the new staff could have gotten a more complete game from JN.
maybe filling the other 70 % of the roster with tougher harder players with grit covers up some of the warts in neal's game
maybe it becomes contagious and he starts to play like that as well

guess, we'll never know now

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Losing Neal isn't going to devastate Geno's production. It's the other way around. I'll be very, very surprised if Neal scores more than Hornqvist next season and playoffs.

Seems to me like Geno has had great chemistry and has produced at all world levels regardless of who is on his line. He won a Conn Smythe with Fedotenko and Talbot (and scored more playoff points than anyone in decades). He'll continue to produce at all world production with his next set of wingers. Sid's the one that needed big changes to his line, and I think Hornqvist is going to be with Sid. Malkin's new winger(s) will be acquired in the next week, most likely.

I realize Hornqvist isn't as sexy a pickup as E. Kane, or Wheeler, or the handful of players we've all been clamoring over for weeks, but he's a damn good winger and one who brings a skill set that we're in dire need of.

 

[Michael8771*]

I'm not horribly profound, I just remember what I said a page or two ago.

Don't get me wrong - Neal's a talented player. He probably is the most talented player that Malkin played with on a regular, day-in and day-out basis. I think we can meet in the middle there, despite my being sassy about it.

Seriously - it's not like we gave up nothing. But he's got flaws. Sometimes really good players aren't the best fits for each other in one way or another. Sometimes things don't work out. Paul Coffey was maybe the most talented defenseman the Pens ever had - but after we won in 91, we ditched him and still won another cup. Sometimes it's not about having one elite skill or a couple elite skills, it's about fitting in with the team and the way the team needs to work together. It's about being complementary, not just stacking skill on top of skill.

So, to reiterate what I said, and that I said I said, and that I quoted - actually, let me quote it again:



So, let's go over this again: just because Neal might be the most totally rad and awesome player to be a fixture on Malkin's line in terms of production, doesn't necessarily prove that he is the guy that the team needs to be on that line, or that he is the best fit stylistically or system-wise for Malkin. Nor does it follow that just because Malkin did fine with glorified 3rd liners that said glorified third liners are the best fits, either. Maybe it's the case that Neal actually is the best guy in the world for Malkin! And maybe it's not. But nothing you have asserted here provides anything resembling concrete evidence for him being the best fit, which is - again, you can go back and see for yourself - what I was pointing out in the first place.

Let me illuminate my point further then.

1. Geno and Neal were first team all stars in 11-12. The only time both were reasonably healthy for the vast majority of the season
2.Geno scored 50 goals that year in only 75 games. Who helped set him up?
3. Geno had a 109 points. His highest point per game total in his career.
4. Geno's only hart trophy was that year also.
5. Geno himself said that Neal was his best wing ever. I THINK HE WOULD KNOW.
6. Neal has averaged a PPG average since 11-12. No other winger on Geno's line came close to that.

You can think what you want, but that's pretty overwhelming evidence that Neal was his top linemate. To this point anyhow. And if you think Horntoad or whoever they bring in will be a better fit, then I think you're gonna be rather disappointed.

 

[Riptide]

He's a PPG player since 2011. The last season he played a full season he was a first team all star. And look at his assist totals, not to shabby either. He's a lot more complete player than clearly you care to admit.

Assist totals mean **** when playing with one of the best centers in the game. Neal was never a complete player. I don't like the trade (specifically due to the +, not Hornqvist), but Neal was a one dimensional shooter. A damn good one... but that's it.

 

[JohnnyOduyasGirl27]

I'm not that upset, I know every Pens is upset, People need to understand that Hornqvist, he will help Malkin be his line mate!

 

[Whale Mingo]

In two months when Geno finds this out he's gonna mad that "Lazy" is gone.

 

[JohnnyOduyasGirl27]

I'm not that upset, I know every Pens is upset, People need to understand that Hornqvist, he will help Malkin be his line mate!

 

[Riptide]

What were your thoughts on the Kunitz trade, how about BG, Hossa Dupuis, Neal and Nisky for Gogo? Scary Gary Roberts, How about the Staal deal?

Yep, he never made a good trade.

No one said he never made a good trade. But he also made bad ones.

 

[Michael8771*]

Assist totals mean **** when playing with one of the best centers in the game. Neal was never a complete player. I don't like the trade (specifically due to the +, not Hornqvist), but Neal was a one dimensional shooter. A damn good one... but that's it.

So Geno scoring 50 with Neal was just a coincidence. As far as him being one dimensional, well, Geno disagrees with you. His best chemistry came with Neal. He's stated that many times. Again I'll take his word on that.

 

[KIRK]

Is that right? You think you're real lucid and profound, ok buddy. And let me reiterate that Neal was the best line mate that Geno ever had. There's ample proof to suggest that. Neal is one linemate, maybe the issue is with the 3rd wheel on the line. In fact if there's an issue logic would suggest that's where the problem lies. Not with Geno and Neal.

Actually, I'd argue that Malone was the best linemate Geno ever had.

Neal was a glorified Sykora, for better and, yes, for worse.

 

[Michael8771*]

No one said he never made a good trade. But he also made bad ones.

Well, JR is 0-1 so RS is still better in that regard in my book.

 

[Riptide]

1. You weren't getting Wilson.
2. Maybe you are underselling Spaling a little.
3. That #11 pick. Would he make any contribution before Geno turned 30?

Malkin and Crosby suddenly stop playing hockey at 30? You need to compete now, while building for the future. Getting a Staal like return is more than fine.

 

[Fraction Jackson]

Let me illuminate my point further then.

1. Geno and Neal were first team all stars in 11-12. The only time both were reasonably healthy for the vast majority of the season
2.Geno scored 50 goals that year in only 75 games. Who helped set him up?
3. Geno had a 109 points. His highest point per game total in his career.
4. Geno's only hart trophy was that year also.
5. Geno himself that Neal was his best wing ever.
6. Neal has avaraged a PPG average since 11-12. No other winger on Geno's line came close to that

You can think what you want, but that's pretty overwhelming evidence that Neal was his top linemate. To this point anyhow.

I think the problem here is that we're arguing different things.

You're arguing that Neal has put up more points than others who played with Malkin- and, presumably, helped Malkin accumulate more points - and that this makes him "Malkin's top linemate." Your words. And, well, yes, on these points you're not wrong. These are all things that happened. You are not incorrect in any of these things.

What I am suggesting - what a lot of people here are suggesting, really - is that "more points" does not equal "better than." It is suggesting that Neal presumably (in your eyes) helping Malkin win the Hart, did not in turn equate to a Cup. It did not equate to a good playoff performance. It did not equate to the result that you and I and everyone else here ultimately wants.

Therefore, it is at least conceivable that Neal was not necessarily the best fit for Malkin's line to deliver a championship. Despite being having the most success as Malkin's linemate, it doesn't automatically mean he was The Guy, which is an important distinction and one you seem to be overlooking/ignoring. The evidence presented here does not prove that he was not that guy, which is what you seem to think I am saying. But it does not prove that he was, which is what you are saying.

 

[KIRK]

So Geno scoring 50 with Neal was just a coincidence. As far as him being one dimensional, well, Geno disagrees with you. His best chemistry came with Neal. He's stated that many times. Again I'll take his word on that.

Perhaps Geno scored 50 because Neal was on the other wing, like he scored 40 with Malone on the other wing for half a season.

And, if Neal was even a nominal factor in terms of Geno scoring goals, then why was Geno's goal production so much less without Neal? Why did Geno look so much better on Sid's wing than he had at any point centering Neal in the playoffs?

Here's a hint: LEECH

 

[Michael8771*]

Actually, I'd argue that Malone was the best linemate Geno ever had.

Neal was a glorified Sykora, for better and, yes, for worse.

Malone better than Neal huh (for Geno). Ok, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

So Geno scoring 50 with Neal was just a coincidence.

I think you have to look a bit deeper than that. Geno and Neal putting up all those goals also was the year Sid played 22 games.

They were the #1 line. They were both on the top PP.

Sid being hurt allowed those two to get more prominent ice time to score.

 

[KIRK]

The thing is that it is hard to tell if it was mostly bad coaching, or bad team construction, that made the team fail.

You may be right that the team as presently constructed, for the most part anyways, couldn't win. But you may be wrong as well. I was looking forward to seeing how some players would do under another coach and system.

I think it was too late to find out. Two years ago, different story.

But, let's be honest . . . what we're seeing now and what we're going to see is a necessary consequence of Ray Shero doubling down two years ago on more of the same.

 

[KIRK]

I think you have to look a bit deeper than that. Geno and Neal putting up all those goals also was the year Sid played 22 games.

They were the #1 line. They were both on the top PP.

Sid being hurt allowed those two to get more prominent ice time to score.

It also stuck Kunitz on the LW, meaning Geno didn't have to do all of the line's dirty work by himself.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

It also stuck Kunitz on the LW, meaning Geno didn't have to do all of the line's dirty work by himself.

Exactly.

That line was amazing, which was another irritating thing that Bylsma broke it up when Sid came back.

I do think if Kulemin signs with the Pens, he's going to provide that same capability as Kuni for Geno's line.

 

[Riptide]

It's not about hate, it's about having the ability to be objective. And on this particular matter I feel we got hosed. You don't have to like my opinion. I'm not gonna try and spin this trade into anything positive. If that's what you wanna do that's up to you.

HAHHhahhahahhahhaHAHHAHhhhah. Oh wait... are you being serious?!

 

[KIRK]

I just feel like a decent third liner could have been picked up in free agency. Stempniak probably could be retained for not much higher of a cap hit than I imagine Spaling will get signed for, or a flier could have been taken on guys like Booth or Setoguchi who both might have come cheap on show me type contracts.

So instead of picking up a 3rd liner who may have some upside, I'd probably rather have just gotten back futures along with Hornqvist. I agree that this is absolutely a win now team that shouldn't be afraid to move futures to improve the team now, but it would have been smart in this deal to stock up on some assets that could have been put to use later to improve the team.

Fair point.

Really encourage you to read Dejan's article today. Pretty objective, no pot shots at Neal, but spells out why it needed to be done and why it may have been done this way.