Confirmed with Link: James Neal traded to Nashville for Patric Hornqvist and Nick Spaling

[Michael8771*]

I mention recent trades, you go to ones further back. Also, that Staal trade is still a tough one, because Staal was a huge part of this team and that loss is why people have a hard on for Kesler to resurrect that 3C model.

But again, most of those were old moves. You can't live on your past successes, because when you make questionable moves and give up youth that you need and don't address other glaring issues in front of you, of which we found out later that Shero was as big of one as Bylsma, you can't sit back and live off of that 2009 success.

You can basically use that same excuse as to why Bylsma should be kept, you know this right?

You'd still be wrong.

No I wouldn't, you'd be wrong. The majority of his moves helped more than hindered. And I'm not living off 2009, but I do understand in 2011 we were without both Sid and Geno. I'm not gonna fault them for not succeeding that year. The worst thing about RS was his backing of DB in 2012. After the flyers loss DB should have been let go. As far as the Iggy deal, that may have worked better if the coach wasn't so damn stubborn as he completely mishandled the guy. In regards to what we gave up, well, let me know when any of those players actually have a meaningful role at the NHL level. I'm not talking 4th line either. RS wasn't ideal, but you're painting a distorted picture of him.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No I wouldn't, you'd be wrong. The majority of his moves helped more than hindered. And I'm not living off 2009, but I do understand in 2011 we were without both Sid and Geno. I'm not gonna fault them for not succeeding that year. The worst thing about RS was his backing of DB in 2012. After the flyers los DB should have been let go. As far as the Iggy deal, that may have worked better if the coach wasn't so damn stubborn. RS wasn't ideal, but you're painting a distorted picture of him.

What people failed to realize is that both were on the same page, which is why both needed to go. Getting useless veterans instead of trusting the youth, is partly Shero and partly Bylsma for blame. It was one of the things that pissed off Burkle and Lemieux.

Go be a fan of another team if all you're going to do is whine about the team. I don't get people like you, being a fan for 30+ years, I will never get people that just hate hate hate...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Watch people give the excuse that Hornqvist would just leech, because Neal never did that apparently.

For me, a guy that scores 30 goals with the likes of Sullivan and Arnott or whomever it was, is far more impressive than 45 goals with the 1B best player in the NHL.

The same haters, will be Patric's biggest fan boys in the playoffs, watch. Hating a guy they've barely seen, I don't get that.

Yeah, I'll take a slight drop off in regular season production for a guy who is going to bust his ass in every facet of the game come playoff time. He'll dig for pucks, he'll go to the dirty areas, he'll hit, and he'll create space. James Neal did none of those things come playoff time. Hornqvist is the type of guy teams need in order to win Cups. Neal is the definition of a leech, and people will see it now that he's not on Geno's wing and on a PP with Sid and Geno.

 

[mpp9]

The more I think about it. The simpler it becomes. We traded a one trick pony for a one trick pony and a depth player. Neal's trick is sniping from the perimeter. Hornqvist's trick is around the net. Both guys have limited skillsets. I'd argue PH's is much more needed.

I think everyone will feel better if JR swings a trade for that stud winger. My issue with Neal is that he should never be your third best forward as a contender. If we bring in a dynamic winger for Sid, moving Neal to fill a niche like PC's makes a ton of sense.

People need to chill the **** out. The organization has been saying all the right things. How about showing some patience and confidence especially in Mario.

 

[Michael8771*]

Why? Because we're down a guy who scored 40g in the regular season and disappeared when push came to shove (literally) in the playoffs?

Neal is supremely talented, but he's not the type of guy we can't win without. He's a third wheel, who doesn't create anything on his own, doesn't battle, doesn't forecheck, and makes stupid decisions.

We'll see how many goals Neal scores alongside Fisher or Jarnkrok this season as opposed to how many Hornqvist scores alongside Sid, all the while being a wholly more effective hockey player. I think people really forget just how ineffective Neal was when the post season started. The only time he put up a chunk of points in the playoffs was in two games in the Ottawa series last year. He's been woefully ineffective otherwise.

How often did he disappear in the playoffs? How did Neal do in 11-12 and 12-13? Where was Sid in these playoffs? Do you wanna trade him also?

 

[Michael8771*]

What people failed to realize is that both were on the same page, which is why both needed to go. Getting useless veterans instead of trusting the youth, is partly Shero and partly Bylsma for blame. It was one of the things that pissed off Burkle and Lemieux.

Go be a fan of another team if all you're going to do is whine about the team. I don't get people like you, being a fan for 30+ years, I will never get people that just hate hate hate...

It's not about hate, it's about having the ability to be objective. And on this particular matter I feel we got hosed. You don't have to like my opinion. I'm not gonna try and spin this trade into anything positive. If that's what you wanna do that's up to you.

Conversely, I like our 1st round pick. According to many including Bobby Mac he was the best player available. So that's certainly ONE positive to take out of the day.

 

[KIRK]

Ok let me simplify it. Up until these playoffs, Neal was very effective both in the RS as well as the PO's. Better?

My point was, if Sid gets a pass for his playoff performance, why not Neal?

Good point . . .

 

[BumFortyOne]

So the sum total of the trade was:

Neal, $5 mil cap hit, 40g, ppg, left-handed sniper

for

Hornqvist, $4.25 mil cap hit, 25g, 50 point, right-handed grinding winger

Spaling, RFA, previous cap hit $1.5 mil, ~30 point bottom six wing/center


Definitely seems like Rutherford didn't maximize the value of Neal as an asset. I also don't mind that Hornqvist was the centerpiece of the return, but it sure seems like Neal should have been worth a better plus than Spaling.

At the same time, by all indications these are two character guys, and Hornqvist should stand to increase his point totals being centered by one of Crosby or Malkin. I think he's also more valuable to the powerplay unit than Neal since he replaces Kunitz as the net front presence and now there's no need to displace Crosby or Malkin on the powerplay to try to accommodate Neal's shot.

It's a risky move, and one that certainly looks like Rutherford didn't get full value for the team's most valuable moveable asset. But I'm willing to reserve judgement until we see if these two guys are able to make an impact in the playoffs.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, I'll take a slight drop off in regular season production for a guy who is going to bust his ass in every facet of the game come playoff time. He'll dig for pucks, he'll go to the dirty areas, he'll hit, and he'll create space. James Neal did none of those things come playoff time. Hornqvist is the type of guy teams need in order to win Cups. Neal is the definition of a leech, and people will see it now that he's not on Geno's wing and on a PP with Sid and Geno.

Well, some people sat least.

 

[stardog]

For all of the people who are complaining about the deal, I understand the frustration. Truly...
HOWEVER, don't you think that it would be prudent to allow yourself a modicum of objectivity? I mean really?
You have all seen that this team, as constructed, simply wasn't working. And you have identified the issues, as they were evident. And the two players that the team received in this deal are the EXACT type of players identified as needs. Yet you're endlessly complaining without even allowing for the CHANCE that it could work. And you're doing so despite the knowledge of what this team got back was exactly what it lacked! That is insane.

Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that most of the people complaining have only passing knowledge of the two players in question.

There is a reason why Nashville was loathe to give up Hornqvist and why, despite a lack of league wide noteriety, he was a huge fan favorite for the Preds.

Yeah, I'm sorry to see Neal go as well. He was a goal scoring machine for the Pens. But he had some MAJOR warts as well.

I'll say this again. I am CERTAIN that you will judge the trade in a much more different light halfway through next season than you do right now. And even more different at this time next year.
Can you accept that challenge and at least have an open mind that it just MAY benefit the actual team as a whole? Or would you rather remain all doom and gloom and not give it even a wee bit of a chance?

 

[Riptide]

when you just look at numbers the pens lose this trade is bad. neal is leaps and bounds better than hornqvist. we lost this trade.

but i am okay with it. we've had 7 years of a gm who never made a trade if he wasn't clearly robbing the other guy blind. a gm that never traded a roster player than didn't want out. i hated it. i was sick of it. i was sick of neal too.

it's time to lose some trades if it changes the make up of our team. it's time to trade good players. it's time to take some risks.

we all know that last year's roster wasn't cutting it. if you don't trade neal, you've got four top six spots locked in. you're still dealing with a guy whose best friend calls him lazy. was neal ever willing to run through a wall for this team? to take punishment? he was certainly willing to throw elbows and get suspended and take stupid penalties.

it's time for a real shake-up. no more half measures. let's lose a trade but get a guy that can infuse some heart and grit, because those two things are more important than 40 regular season goals.

i dunno. maybe i'm wrong

I'm fine with losing a trade that changes things up, and has someone with some potential to pan out. Such as if they had added Beck into the trade. Then we could look at that and go... well IF he pans out into a top 9 guy in a few years, then this is probably alright. But we didn't. We have 2 players, 1 of whom has zero upside. Spaling will never be a top 6 forward. I like Hornqivst and what he brings to the table, but am bitterly disappointed with the +. We either should have gotten a 3rd piece, or someone better than Spaling.

 

[Michael8771*]

Good point . .

It actually is, I mean Sid had what one goal in 13 games. He's considered best player in the world. Disappeared in the Boston series the year before also, yet he gets a pass. Wonder why that is.

 

[stardog]

It actually is, I mean Sid had what one goal in 13 games. He's considered best player in the world. Disappeared in the Boston series the year before also, yet he gets a pass. Wonder why that is.

The answer to your wonder is in your post itself.

 

[Fraction Jackson]

Ok let me simplify it. Up until these playoffs, Neal was very effective both in the RS as well as the PO's. Better?

You change the subject so well - you move the goalposts so well, you might be Scott Norwood's worst nightmare.

It actually is, I mean Sid had what one goal in 13 games. He's considered best player in the world. Disappeared in the Boston series the year before also, yet he gets a pass. Wonder why that is.

Huh. I wonder.

He's considered best player in the world.

...yet he gets a pass. Wonder why that is.

You answered your own question.

EDIT:

The answer to your wonder is in your post itself.

You are faster on the draw than I am.

 

[Michael8771*]

I'm fine with losing a trade that changes things up, and has someone with some potential to pan out. Such as if they had added Beck into the trade. Then we could look at that and go... well IF he pans out into a top 9 guy in a few years, then this is probably alright. But we didn't. We have 2 players, 1 of whom has zero upside. Spaling will never be a top 6 forward. I like Hornqivst and what he brings to the table, but am bitterly disappointed with the +. We either should have gotten a 3rd piece, or someone better than Spaling.

That's a terrible approach. You don't want to give up an asset and get back minimal or less than fair value for. As far as having someone pan out, well yeah that'd be great. but there aren't any guarantees. And in fact there's a lot more questions then answers. If you're a now team that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Time is of the essence, it's not as if we are in a complete rebuild.

 

[Michael8771*]

The answer to your wonder is in your post itself.

You change the subject so well - you move the goalposts so well, you might be Scott Norwood's worst nightmare.



Huh. I wonder.






You answered your own question.

EDIT:



You are faster on the draw than I am.

I didn't move the goalposts in the least, you're just having trouble comprehending. I've stayed on point throughout this debate. Try paying closer attention.

More terrible logic, so he can play well below his customary level and get a free pass? Yep that's sound logic.

Who cares if he produces in the playoffs, he's the best player in the world. That's the best you guys got?

 

[stardog]

It's not about hate, it's about having the ability to be objective. And on this particular matter I feel we got hosed. You don't have to like my opinion. I'm not gonna try and spin this trade into anything positive. If that's what you wanna do that's up to you.

Conversely, I like our 1st round pick. According to many including Bobby Mac he was the best player available. So that's certainly ONE positive to take out of the day.

But you fail to see that "OBJECTIVE" is the LAST thing that you're being. Not even allowing for the possibility of a wash (let alone success) and only seeing it as an absolute failure before seeing the product is pretty much the furthest thing from objective as one can get actually.
It's strange that you fail to see that.

 

[KIRK]

For all of the people who are complaining about the deal, I understand the frustration. Truly...
HOWEVER, don't you think that it would be prudent to allow yourself a modicum of objectivity? I mean really?
You have all seen that this team, as constructed, simply wasn't working. And you have identified the issues, as they were evident. And the two players that the team received in this deal are the EXACT type of players identified as needs. Yet you're endlessly complaining without even allowing for the CHANCE that it could work. And you're doing so despite the knowledge of what this team got back was exactly what it lacked! That is insane.

Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that most of the people complaining have only passing knowledge of the two players in question.

There is a reason why Nashville was loathe to give up Hornqvist and why, despite a lack of league wide noteriety, he was a huge fan favorite for the Preds.

Yeah, I'm sorry to see Neal go as well. He was a goal scoring machine for the Pens. But he had some MAJOR warts as well.

I'll say this again. I am CERTAIN that you will judge the trade in a much more different light halfway through next season than you do right now. And even more different at this time next year.
Can you accept that challenge and at least have an open mind that it just MAY benefit the actual team as a whole? Or would you rather remain all doom and gloom and not give it even a wee bit of a chance?

The floated idea on twitter is that the Avs offer may have been as high as PAP and a 1st.

I like this deal better.

Seems the complaint isn't so much Horny as much as the PLUS.

Seems some of the complaint crowd may have been ok with Horny, #11 for Neal, #22.

Thing is, do the Pens get more before Geno turns 30 from Spaling (and Sami Jr at 22) than whoever they would have drafted at #11.

This is what people aren't thinking through. Shero got a grand result for Staal. Nice, big, sexy deal. What have the Pens had to show for it for the last two years? Maybe it will start to look like a win late this year, though probably next year.

Could the Pens afford to wait 3 years to maybe 'win' a Neal deal?

Sid and Geno aren't under 25 now. The IMMEDIACY of the return had to be a consideration, even if it meant taking a little less in terms of what the value could look like in 3-4 years.

 

[Gurglesons]

But you fail to see that "OBJECTIVE" is the LAST thing that you're being. Not even allowing for the possibility of a wash (let alone success) and only seeing it as an absolute failure before seeing the product is pretty much the furthest thing from objective as one can get actually.
It's strange that you fail to see that.

Unless the addition of Hornqvist and Spaling leads to us getting another cup than it will be a failure. I would argue with Michael and say that James Neal gave us the chance to get towards that over a combination of players that could both be complete busts in our system.

People like to harp on players like Orpik and Adams being no part of our line-up, but obviously our best winger was just moved because of off ice issues. Half of this forum wants to trade for Evander Kane who is essentially cut from the same cloth as Neal, only he doesn't score as much and gets healthy scratched by multiple coaches.

 

[stardog]

I didn't move the goalposts in the least, you're just having trouble comprehending. I've stayed on point throughout this debate. Try paying closer attention.

More terrible logic, so he can play well below his customary level and get a free pass? Yep that's sound logic.

Who cares if he produces in the playoffs, he's the best player in the world. That's the best you guys got?

I wasn't offering up logic. I was pointing out the obvious answer to the riddle you were perplexed by. Yet arguing that Neal should receive the same benefit of doubt that Crosby has is even more perplexing. I was simply showing you the obvious error of your post and providing an answer. Not giving out logic or reason. There is a difference.

 

[KIRK]

So the sum total of the trade was:

Neal, $5 mil cap hit, 40g, ppg, left-handed sniper

for

Hornqvist, $4.25 mil cap hit, 25g, 50 point, right-handed grinding winger

Spaling, RFA, previous cap hit $1.5 mil, ~30 point bottom six wing/center


Definitely seems like Rutherford didn't maximize the value of Neal as an asset. I also don't mind that Hornqvist was the centerpiece of the return, but it sure seems like Neal should have been worth a better plus than Spaling.

At the same time, by all indications these are two character guys, and Hornqvist should stand to increase his point totals being centered by one of Crosby or Malkin. I think he's also more valuable to the powerplay unit than Neal since he replaces Kunitz as the net front presence and now there's no need to displace Crosby or Malkin on the powerplay to try to accommodate Neal's shot.

It's a risky move, and one that certainly looks like Rutherford didn't get full value for the team's most valuable moveable asset. But I'm willing to reserve judgement until we see if these two guys are able to make an impact in the playoffs.

What PLUS?

A flip of 1st round picks.

Question: Spaling and Kapanen OR whoever the Pens would've drafted at 11 . . . which return has more impact before Sid turns 30?

You want ANOTHER Staal deal, where we've got to wait 4 years to maybe see the 'win' payoff? You want that now, given Sid's and Geno's ages?

See, this is why I'm no fan of a PAP and late 1st deal. Bigger drop off than Horny gives you, and the 1st you won't see for 3 years, if at all.

If THIS is what people mean by 'should've gotten more'-- and it's all that people have cited-- then please don't ever complain again about the state of the Pens forwards and how the team does by Sid and Geno.

EDIT: I am glad that you will reserve judgment. Honestly, it's all about the playoffs. What Hornqvist means. What maybe Spaling means. And how they fit in terms of the puzzle.

 

[Michael8771*]

But you fail to see that "OBJECTIVE" is the LAST thing that you're being. Not even allowing for the possibility of a wash (let alone success) and only seeing it as an absolute failure before seeing the product is pretty much the furthest thing from objective as one can get actually.
It's strange that you fail to see that.

Normally when you trade away the best player in a trade you lose the deal. In this instance that very much appears to be the case. Time will tell, I hope it works out for us, but I doubt it. And that is being objective. When we traded Gogo for Neal I had the exact opposite reaction. That deal turned out pretty well.

 

[Riptide]

If Jiggy will supply some insight on Neal's behavior (sounding like he's suggesting he was a total cancer), then I will retract my "Jim you ****ing geezer" comment whole-heartedly. No 40G/40A guy is worth keeping around if he's a total ******* in the room / around the team... in which case the value is not bad.

But that is the ONLY way I will accept that we didn't shaft ourselves today (setting aside what we might or might not try to do in FA). If Neal was truly a bad guy to have around the team then I want him gone no matter what but today is the very first time I've seen anyone credible on this site say he has direct evidence for same. Possibly I missed a thread somewhere earlier this spring, I dunno.

Even if that's the case, we still shafted ourselves. I don't care how good of a 3rd liner Spaling is... with Sutter and more importantly Dupuis who is likely untradeable right now, we got an asset... that we didn't need and has no upside. Nashville has 3rd line players with upside... why the hell didn't we get one of them!? JR needed to get a 3rd piece (or a better + instead of Spaling) who had some upside. He didn't. And for that reason, we lost this trade.

 

[Fraction Jackson]

I didn't move the goalposts in the least, you're just having trouble comprehending. I've stayed on point throughout this debate. Try paying closer attention.

Paid plenty attention. When I quoted you first, you were talking about Neal making Malkin better;

How did Neal compliment Geno, really? How about maximizing his passes and putting them in the back of the net. How about helping Geno score 50 Freakin goals in a season and winning the Art Ross and Hart Trophy? Are you actually suggesting that Neal did nothing to help Malkin????

After mentioning Malkin did just fine (and maybe even better) in other (and arguably worse) circumstances you pivoted instantly. Your next post, in case you forgot, started like this:

Really? Well how was Sid's recent post season? Because relative to expectations his was as disappointing as Neals. Before this past post season and playing regularly with Geno Neal scored 16 points in 18 games. Geno has said on a couple occasions that Neal was his favorite wingman and the player he meshed with the best. Also gave props to Kulemin. I'll take his word for it.

This is the internet. You don't get to pretend you didn't say things that are recorded less than two pages ago.

Edit, for clarification, because you might need it: going from "Neal helped Malkin" to "well what about Sid" is not staying on point. Unless you perceive time differently than the rest of us. In which case: congratulations, because that's awesome.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'm fine with losing a trade that changes things up, and has someone with some potential to pan out. Such as if they had added Beck into the trade. Then we could look at that and go... well IF he pans out into a top 9 guy in a few years, then this is probably alright. But we didn't. We have 2 players, 1 of whom has zero upside. Spaling will never be a top 6 forward. I like Hornqivst and what he brings to the table, but am bitterly disappointed with the +. We either should have gotten a 3rd piece, or someone better than Spaling.

I agree it's not the sexy trade we all wanted. Hell, even I was praying for E. Kane or Wheeler, or someone headline grabbing like that, but Hornqvist is a really, really good winger and the type of guy we're sorely lacking here. I think people are going to see the drop off in scoring during the regular season isn't going to be as Earth-shattering as lots of people are making it out to be, and he'll be worlds better than Neal come playoff time. I don't know anything about Spaling beyond the fact that he's a versatile bottom six player. Not the type of add in you'd hope for, but it's an improvement over our current bottom six situation.

I'm happy with the trade. Hornqvist is a guy I've had my eye on for a while, and while it never even crossed my mind that Nashville would want Neal (since he's an entirely complimentary player and they don't have someone he can feed off of), I am excited to see Hornqvist on this team. I think people are going to be very pleasantly surprised.