News Article: James Neal: The Poster Child for What's Wrong With NHL Discipline System

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Or maybe the Penguins should build a real NHL bottom 6 and let them do the agitating so the stars can do their thing.

It's not that at all. Malkin, Neal, and lately Kunitz (and sometimes Crosby and less often Letang) all take penalties where they go WAY over the top when someone breathes on them. It's not a guy that the coaches designate to rile them up, or a cheap shot they took, it's them acting like maniacs because sometimes you're not allowed to just skate up and down the ice untouched. It's not acceptable from any player at any level.

 

[Shady Machine]

Or maybe the Penguins should build a real NHL bottom 6 and let them do the agitating so the stars can do their thing.

I'm cool with that but let's not pretend Neal is agitating out of some intentional strategy. He gets frustrated and does stupid ****. You could argue that if our bottom 6 was tougher or better suited to agitate, that Neal wouldn't get frustrated as easily. I'm just not sure I buy that.

 

[Til the End of Time]

neal seems like a d-bag/punk. he is the sort of player that makes the penguins unlikable. but he scores a lot so i dont mind a certain degree of antics. he takes it too far though.

his cheapshots need to stop. they dont add to his game in the way that cooke's did. cooke was a consistent physical presence that did a great job of wearing down the opposition's blueline by forechecking hard or by targeting the opposition's stars.

neal just throws temper tantrums when things dont go his way and cheapshots people. i dont care what other teams get penalized for, neal is frequently an embarrassment.

the unfortunate thing is that he can be a consistent physical presence that plays a relatively clean brand of hockey if only he was motivated. when he's not being a baby, he can forecheck with the best of 'em (ie when he drives chara nuts).

but most of the time he is just a whiny petulant star.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I'm cool with that but let's not pretend Neal is agitating out of some intentional strategy. He gets frustrated and does stupid ****. You could argue that if our bottom 6 was tougher or better suited to agitate, that Neal wouldn't get frustrated as easily. I'm just not sure I buy that.

This too. I have had the feeling for a while that the stars of this team have felt that no one has their back, so they need to take that part of the game on themselves.

Another ramification of the Bylsmaing of this team.

 

[Shockmaster]

I'm cool with that but let's not pretend Neal is agitating out of some intentional strategy. He gets frustrated and does stupid ****. You could argue that if our bottom 6 was tougher or better suited to agitate, that Neal wouldn't get frustrated as easily. I'm just not sure I buy that.

You could also argue that in the back-to-back finals years when the Penguins did have a stronger bottom 6 that the stars weren't taking as many penalties and kept their heads. Coaching certainly shares blame in that, but I don't think you can deny that having a stronger bottom 6 takes pressure off the stars in more ways than one.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

You could also argue that in the back-to-back finals years when the Penguins did have a stronger bottom 6 that the stars weren't taking as many penalties and kept their heads. Coaching certainly shares blame in that, but I don't think you can deny that having a stronger bottom 6 takes pressure off the stars in more ways than one.

It's pretty much the coaches. Orpik and Glass tried to get some kind of message through in that article a few days ago, but the coaches doing nothing is the real problem. I know everyone hates Orpik but he can only do so much when the coaches don't have HIS back.

 

[td_ice]

Paul Stewart huh??

King of the "let them play.....(no matter what)" reffing school. Attitudes were at that time, "well yeah, the stars are too talented, of course let the Brian Skrudlands of the world water ski them, cause it wouldn't fair otherwise. Let's level that playing field".

I remember a game in which our stars were getting simply abused. And they had had enough and complained. So what does Stewart do?? He ejects, Mario, Jagr and Stevens from the game.

 

[vikingGoalie]

....
neal just throws temper tantrums when things dont go his way and cheapshots people. i dont care what other teams get penalized for, neal is frequently an embarrassment....

well he is on a line with Malkin, who may not do quite as much douchery does take stupid penalties all the time.

The part that I can't disagree with here is

When I was an active referee, I would tell the team leaders and the coach to get control of such players or I would have to do it for them -- and they wouldn't like the result. If I told Ray Bourque or Dave Poulin to get someone on their team in line, I never had another problem with that guy. I would hope Sidney Crosby could be told the same thing by an official, but I have not seen that sort of leadership from him.

A lot of the lack of discipline on this team gets laid, rightly, at the HC's feet. But our captain, is supposed to A.) be the model of disciplined play, i.e. don't do dumb selfish things that cost the team. and B.) reign in people who don't do A.

But we never see it. Usually our star players that have letters on their jerseys lead the way in to firewagon, undisciplined, hair on fire hockey. The evolution I'd like to see from Crosby is him being more vocal in the locker room. Peer pressure in the locker room *will* stop dumb stuff. If Neal after the kneeing game in front of everyone else was called out for it, and the guys on the team told him he's got to stop being a moron, that goes a long way. More then a shan-a-ban suspension or fine.

 

[gopens66]

I never liked Stewart, and sure, he's singling out James Neal.

But, everything he said is correct. Neal is as dirty as a ten-year-old's one pair of underwear after a week of summer camp.

The article would have been better if he included a laundry list from Marchand's career, or anyone else of this nature, as a way of saying how unaccountable the NHL really is.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

well he is on a line with Malkin, who may not do quite as much douchery does take stupid penalties all the time.

The part that I can't disagree with here is


A lot of the lack of discipline on this team gets laid, rightly, at the HC's feet. But our captain, is supposed to A.) be the model of disciplined play, i.e. don't do dumb selfish things that cost the team. and B.) reign in people who don't do A.

But we never see it. Usually our star players that have letters on their jerseys lead the way in to firewagon, undisciplined, hair on fire hockey. The evolution I'd like to see from Crosby is him being more vocal in the locker room. Peer pressure in the locker room *will* stop dumb stuff. If Neal after the kneeing game in front of everyone else was called out for it, and the guys on the team told him he's got to stop being a moron, that goes a long way. More then a shan-a-ban suspension or fine.

I totally agree. Problem is between our media and Canada's you'll never hear it called into question. A guy like AO gets blasted for being a crappy captain but no one will ever mention the fact that Crosby quite frankly is a pretty blasé one himself

 

[gopens66]

On a related note, if you want to see leadership, watch the way Ron Francis stops Lemieux when Mario stormed out of the penalty box after Frasier skates by and tells him he's ejected. Francis literally puts his shoulder square into Mario's sternum and effectively checked his captain for losing his mind. The Pens quickly surround him, but I've always wandered what 66 would have done to Frasier if he got his hands on him. It might have been bad.

 

[td_ice]

I never liked Stewart, and sure, he's singling out James Neal.

But, everything he said is correct. Neal is as dirty as a ten-year-old's one pair of underwear after a week of summer camp.

The article would have been better if he included a laundry list from Marchand's career, or anyone else of this nature, as a way of saying how unaccountable the NHL really is.

I agree, Neal can be an idiot. And definitely treads into the dirty territory on occasion.


I just never liked Stewart for his style of reefing. He was definitely, (maybe because he was a former goon during his pro playing day) a guy that would give stars no slack, but would let the lesser players have a greater latitude on the ice. Which is perhaps why most of the players, on the whole, felt he was the best ref going at the time. (IIRC from seeing interview polls at the time). But I think the star players definitely had a different view. Which is why he earned a reputation of, (along with Kerry Fraser) of wanting to be "noticed" on the ice. And as a ref, that is a horrible thing to do imo. But he would definitely get in the faces of the stars. And seemed to be in the spotlight a lot.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I really, really hate when people act like they know a damn thing that goes on in the locker room. You're seriously going to criticize Crosby as captain because James Neal is a moron? That's ridiculous. Crosby has been referred to as one of the best captains in the league by many. Calling him a "blase" captain is based on nothing.

Neal being an idiot is on noone but himself.

 

[djt153]

I really, really hate when people act like they know a damn thing that goes on in the locker room. You're seriously going to criticize Crosby as captain because James Neal is a moron? That's ridiculous. Crosby has been referred to as one of the best captains in the league by many. Calling him a "blase" captain is based on nothing.

Neal being an idiot is on noone but himself.

crosby is probably a perfectly fine captain, but i would point out that him, malkin, and orpik all have difficulties keeping their emotions in check. obviously something like this is very anecdotal and hard to measure, but none of those three seem to be a kind of calming leadership presence like the previously mentioned francis and perhaps that is an underappreciated role on a cup contending team.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

It's hard to disagree with the article to be honest.

 

[vikingGoalie]

I really, really hate when people act like they know a damn thing that goes on in the locker room. You're seriously going to criticize Crosby as captain because James Neal is a moron? That's ridiculous. Crosby has been referred to as one of the best captains in the league by many. Calling him a "blase" captain is based on nothing.

Neal being an idiot is on noone but himself.

true, none of us hear the words that are spoken in the locker room.

However the actions on the ice speak volumes. Many times our opponents get gifted golden scoring opportunites DIRECTLY off the play of our best players.

When you hear the words about the need to play more disciplined hockey, etc, etc. But then it doesn't happen, and when the guys not doing it are your leaders, what does that say?

But you're right can't hear the words behind closed doors, basically we are left with two options.

1.) Crosby *is* telling players to not do stupid stuff, and they choose to ignore him.
(maybe because he is a fine one to talk).
or
2.) Crosby *isn't* telling players to do stupid stuff or at least not very forcefully (what I think is happening).

Either way it's not good. I'll flip this the other direction. Are you saying that you are perfectly happy with our Captain's play in high pressure situations, especially when frustrated and jostled? You think our team plays disciplined structured hockey in the playoffs? If your answer is no to either of these, do you put any blame on Crosby/Malkin for it? Or do you give them a free ride.

I do (see original post) put accountability at Disco Dan's feet, I'm saying that the Captain of the team to often gets a free pass on this stuff.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

You could also argue that in the back-to-back finals years when the Penguins did have a stronger bottom 6 that the stars weren't taking as many penalties and kept their heads. Coaching certainly shares blame in that, but I don't think you can deny that having a stronger bottom 6 takes pressure off the stars in more ways than one.

Geno was nearly suspended during our cup run.

 

[radapex]

I totally agree. Problem is between our media and Canada's you'll never hear it called into question. A guy like AO gets blasted for being a crappy captain but no one will ever mention the fact that Crosby quite frankly is a pretty blasé one himself

Except that Crosby has been called an excellent leader by every coach he's played for. Considering that they interact with the players at an intimate level every day, I think they know what they're talking about.

 

[radapex]

crosby is probably a perfectly fine captain, but i would point out that him, malkin, and orpik all have difficulties keeping their emotions in check. obviously something like this is very anecdotal and hard to measure, but none of those three seem to be a kind of calming leadership presence like the previously mentioned francis and perhaps that is an underappreciated role on a cup contending team.

And Jonathan Toews, referred to by many as the best captain in the NHL, had to have Duncan Keith talk him down during the playoffs last season. Everybody lets their emotions get the best of them at times.

 

[Waffle Fries]

true, none of us hear the words that are spoken in the locker room.

However the actions on the ice speak volumes. Many times our opponents get gifted golden scoring opportunites DIRECTLY off the play of our best players.

When you hear the words about the need to play more disciplined hockey, etc, etc. But then it doesn't happen, and when the guys not doing it are your leaders, what does that say?

But you're right can't hear the words behind closed doors, basically we are left with two options.

1.) Crosby *is* telling players to not do stupid stuff, and they choose to ignore him.
(maybe because he is a fine one to talk).
or
2.) Crosby *isn't* telling players to do stupid stuff or at least not very forcefully (what I think is happening).

Either way it's not good. I'll flip this the other direction. Are you saying that you are perfectly happy with our Captain's play in high pressure situations, especially when frustrated and jostled? You think our team plays disciplined structured hockey in the playoffs? If your answer is no to either of these, do you put any blame on Crosby/Malkin for it? Or do you give them a free ride.

I do (see original post) put accountability at Disco Dan's feet, I'm saying that the Captain of the team to often gets a free pass on this stuff.

Most teams in the league have a player like Neal who does dirty things. A lot of teams have someone worse than Neal. Is Chara a bad captain because of Marchand or Thornton? Or Doan a bad captain because of what happened with Torres? There's no connection there. You can't blame someone else for one individual's actions. I don't even blame Bylsma for Neal. What Neal does is 100% on him. It's crazy to believe that Crosby or DB or even Shero haven't talked to Neal. There's only so much talking can do.

As far as your second paragraph, I think Crosby is overly criticized for his so called issues in high pressure situations. He's better than almost everyone in them. People expect perfection from him all the time, and that's impossible to live up to. Golden Boy Toews had a meltdown in the playoffs last year and no one bats an eye at him. As far as the way the team plays in the playoffs, the structure of the team is not on the players.

I'm just tired of the constant criticism of Sid and Geno. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[billybudd]

Never heard that before about him, from anyone.

Bourque touched on Neal's reputation among the refs on the radio the other day. Said that strange "tripping" coincidental was probably a way of calling Neal for diving without calling him for diving. Also said there probably is not another player on the Penguins who gets called for a penalty there.

 

[radapex]

Either way it's not good. I'll flip this the other direction. Are you saying that you are perfectly happy with our Captain's play in high pressure situations, especially when frustrated and jostled? You think our team plays disciplined structured hockey in the playoffs? If your answer is no to either of these, do you put any blame on Crosby/Malkin for it? Or do you give them a free ride.

I do (see original post) put accountability at Disco Dan's feet, I'm saying that the Captain of the team to often gets a free pass on this stuff.

Frankly, if ownership isn't holding anyone accountable, and management isn't holding anyone accountable, and the coaching staff isn't holding anyone accountable, then it's pretty unrealistic to expect the players to hold themselves and each other accountable.

Think back to the days when Therrien was at the helm. If Malkin was out on the ice throwing a hissy fit, he'd get benched. He may only miss a couple of shifts, but the message got sent.

With Bylsma, the only ones that have to worry are the young guys - Despres, Bennett, etc - because they're the only ones he'll hold accountable. It doesn't matter how many turnovers Orpik or Scuderi have that lead to goals, how many stupid penalties Malkin or Neal take, or how terrible Glass or Adams are playing, they aren't held accountable for it.

 

[madinsomniac]

NHL refs are jokes. I have no respect for them because I believe they are the major reason the game is regulated to afterthought status outside of Canada... Call the damn penalties on the books they way they are meant to be called... don't even up, don't waver for home crowds or because you don't like some particular player... If the interference and cheap shots were called on the teams that start them, maybe we don't see all the diving and embellishment and retaliation that we do... players have to sell a hit to get the calls... that's just not right, on both ends....

 

[billybudd]

I don't disagree with the articles premise, but the particulars remind me of why I thought Stewart was a pretty subpar ref.

Like this.

Give me an unassuming, hard working role player who parlays modest talent into a lengthy career that outlasts many of the stars. I'll take 1,000 players like Craig Ludwig or Ian Laperriere.

This is bringing back nightmares. If Stewart perceived you to have little talent, but a lot of effort, he would warp the rulebook to give you a break. On the micro, among referees, he was probably the most-responsible for the mindset that lead to all that clutching and grabbing in the first DPE.

 

[radapex]

NHL refs are jokes. I have no respect for them because I believe they are the major reason the game is regulated to afterthought status outside of Canada... Call the damn penalties on the books they way they are meant to be called... don't even up, don't waver for home crowds or because you don't like some particular player... If the interference and cheap shots were called on the teams that start them, maybe we don't see all the diving and embellishment and retaliation that we do... players have to sell a hit to get the calls... that's just not right, on both ends....

It's not even necessarily calling it exactly by the book. When I was taking courses to start umpiring little league as a teenager, the biggest point they pushed was consistency. And it made absolute sense. Who cares how big or small your strike zone is or whether you're more partial to calling high or low as long as it's always consistent?

And that's where NHL officiating fails. Not only is there a lack of consistency throughout the season, but there's a lack of consistency throughout a game. How many times have you heard an announcer say something like "that would've been a penalty if this was the first period"? If the game is called the same for both teams and at all junctions of the game, then nobody has any right to complain.