Waived: Jakub Kindl

[Winger98]

That's exactly what I was getting at when I referenced Tootoo and Colaiacovo. Unfortunately Holland et al were like "you can't go to Meijer thrifty acres and buy 30 goal scorers"

And he has a point. I don't think Franzen's a big problem, considering the ability to LTIR him. If it does become a problem, he should be able to find another team to make a paper transaction so he can sit on their cap, let insurance pay most of the salary, and skirt around the cap floor a little. We've seen other GMs pull off such a move, anyway.

 

[Dotter]

Yes, where oh where would the Red Wings be without Jiri Hudler's 2012 season or Val Filppula's outstanding 2013 season?

It's just another case of the management not knowing what they had until it was too late. Tatar and Nyquist probably could've replaced these two much sooner than they did... meaning Hudler and Filppula could've been dealt (for pretty solid assets) before they walked for nothing -- just like AA and Helm now. Just like Quincey and Chelios or Lebda or whoever it was in 2009. Just like them trading for Legwand to "protect" Sheahan in 2014.

Hindsight is such a beautiful thing, isn't it

I have no problem with Ken not trading those players because the team made the playoffs. Had he traded them and missed the playoffs, then yes, he should have been fired (or tar and feathered). Ken Holland made the right decision at the time with the given information we had at the time.

Not sure why you're even talking about this as if its a bad thing. Wings made the playoffs and Holland proves to be a good (if not the best) GM in the league.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

I didn't see where anything happened with Kindl after clearing waivers, was he sent down to GR?

 

[TCNorthstars]

I didn't see where anything happened with Kindl after clearing waivers, was he sent down to GR?

Yes. Saw a tweet yesterday that said he was on a plane to Charlotte.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Hindsight is such a beautiful thing, isn't it

I have no problem with Ken not trading those players because the team made the playoffs. Had he traded them and missed the playoffs, then yes, he should have been fired (or tar and feathered). Ken Holland made the right decision at the time with the given information we had at the time.

Not sure why you're even talking about this as if its a bad thing. Wings made the playoffs and Holland proves to be a good (if not the best) GM in the league.

Yes but you forget that "making the playoffs" is a failure. Every season we should either be playing in the SCF or picking in the top 3.

 

[Kyleftlx]

Yes but you forget that "making the playoffs" is a failure. Every season we should either be playing in the SCF or picking in the top 3.

You can't get to the SCF without making the playoffs though. They're trying to get to the SCF every year. It just isn't happening right now.

 

[Winger98]

You can't get to the SCF without making the playoffs though. They're trying to get to the SCF every year. It just isn't happening right now.

And realistically it probably wasn't happening a few years ago, either. Yeah, there's always a chance you can go on a run once you get in, but I think the likelihood of that has to be weighed against the assets and strengthening of a future run that dealing a guy like Hudler or Filppula would have provided. In hindsight, the moment we lost out on Suter, we probably should have started clearing the decks and beginning a serious overhaul heading into the last lockout.

 

[ShelbyZ]

And realistically it probably wasn't happening a few years ago, either. Yeah, there's always a chance you can go on a run once you get in, but I think the likelihood of that has to be weighed against the assets and strengthening of a future run that dealing a guy like Hudler or Filppula would have provided. In hindsight, the moment we lost out on Suter, we probably should have started clearing the decks and beginning a serious overhaul heading into the last lockout.

This.

Hindsight is 20/20, but letting Filppula and Hudler walk WAS a bad move.

Between the 2011 and 2012 offseasons, the Red Wings saw 3 huge and not exactly unexpected subtractions to their blueline (Rafalski, Lidstrom and Stuart). In both of those offseasons, Holland had a top six forward that was slated to become a UFA in a year (Hudler in 2011, Fulppula in 2012). In the back of his mind, Holland had to know they were going to be difficult to re-sign (ESPECIALLY if Hudler bounced back from the mediocre season he was coming off of, and or Filppula continued to produce at a 20g+ 60p+ pace.). Holland could've moved them during that offseason for some quality blue line help, or assets that could develop into or be exchanged for blue line help.

Instead, Holland got confused and thought it was 2001 again, putting most of his effort into the UFA market. Namely, getting Suter and maybe some other sought after UFA Dmen. However, in the end he had to rely on desperate stopgaps in Quincey, White and Colaiacovo.

Before anyone brings up the playoffs and blah blah, take a look at the Hawks. Out of NECCESSITY, Stan Bowman has made multiple deals like the hypotheticals I presented for Hudler and Filppula. Look at what he got for guys like Bolland, Brouwer and others. He turned a good core into a dynasty by continually moving assetts that he knows he won't be able to keep mostly because of the salary cap.

To rub salt in the Wings wounds, the cap had nothing to do with Holland losing Hudler and Filppula. Hudler was coming off a 25G season, but Holland balked at giving him $4M/yr. But then Holland had no problem giving MIKAEL SAMUELSSON $3M/yr, JORDIN TOOTOO $1.8M/yr and unexpectedly signing an overrated backup goalie for $1.5/yr.... Filppula on the other hand, wanted $5M/yr after coming off a rough season. Not unreasonable to pass up, until you see that Holland had no problem giving $4.9M to STEPHEN WEISS, who had an even WORSE and injury riddled season with Florida... HORRIBLE.

On top of that, Filppula (hell, and even Cleary) should've been put on the market for the 2013 trade deadline. The Wings were on the playoff bubble, and it was no secret that Filppula would be a goner on July 1st. Even on a down season, a second/third line center with tons of playoff experience would've pulled a premium at the deadline. I mean, Nashville coughed up a 1st rounder for FRIKKIN PAUL GAUSTAD at the previous deadline....

I'm glad that Holland is finally started to make some sensible choices, but his work has been mostly awful since the 2009 Finals appearance... This Kindl thing could've been avoided had Holland not handed him a 4 year deal after he was able to stay out of Babs doghouse for half a season... He also missed a golden opportunity to offload him when MacT had to give up bloated cap hits for subpar Dmen that are now buried in the AHL.

(Not surprisingly) Going unclaimed, Kindl's situation just takes away cap space for next season. Other than straight up trading him for another bad contract, all other options still negatively affect the cap for atleast the next season (retain salary for trade, buyout or bury in AHL for the whole year). It'll be interesting to see how Holland handles this between now and the start of next season.

 

[Fugu]

In retrospect, I'm not sure that either of Hudler or Filppula wanted to stay. I'm fairly confident Hudler did not, tiring of being in Babcock's dog house terminally.

The team also had trouble signing high value UFAs. We can guess as to reasons-- other teams had a better shot at winning + location, coach, or even money as Holland had that idea of 'no one gets paid more than the captain.' Well, the captain may have taken a hometown discount and if you want elite guys, you have to pay the market rate.

I agree with Winger. The writing on the wall to start developing the kids, rebuilding in earnest was when Suter declined to sign here.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

One bright side last night, Kindl scored a goal for the Griffs.

 

[Heaton]

In retrospect, I'm not sure that either of Hudler or Filppula wanted to stay. I'm fairly confident Hudler did not, tiring of being in Babcock's dog house terminally.

The team also had trouble signing high value UFAs. We can guess as to reasons-- other teams had a better shot at winning + location, coach, or even money as Holland had that idea of 'no one gets paid more than the captain.' Well, the captain may have taken a hometown discount and if you want elite guys, you have to pay the market rate.

I agree with Winger. The writing on the wall to start developing the kids, rebuilding in earnest was when Suter declined to sign here.

It's a little sad that some of the Wings best moves were either waiving/not-resigning players or players making the decision for Holland. Hudler and Filppula still being on this team would be a disaster.

 

[Frk It]

It's a little sad that some of the Wings best moves were either waiving/not-resigning players or players making the decision for Holland. Hudler and Filppula still being on this team would be a disaster.

The offer to Hudler was so much lower than what he eventually accepted, that I think it was just a half-hearted attempt to keep him around. I don't really think Hudler was in the plans moving forward.

The offer to Filppula was competitive, and it should have been, because keeping him would have been better than signing Weiss like we ended up doing. Even though his play has since fallen off. First year or two would have been better than what we got from Weiss. May have ended having to buy him out anyways, but oh well.

I'm not mad at the contracts he offered Hudler or Filppula. But I would have liked a hockey trade at the deadline so we don't lose them for nothing. Other teams have done it.

 

[Heaton]

The offer to Hudler was so much lower than what he originally accepted, that I think it was just a half-hearted attempt to keep him around. I don't really think Hudler was in the plans moving forward.

The offer to Filppula was competitive, and it should have been, because keeping him would have been better than signing Weiss like we ended up doing. Even though his play has since fallen off. First year or two would have been better than what we got from Weiss. May have ended having to buy him out anyways, but oh well.

I'm not mad at the contracts he offered Hudler or Filppula. But I would have liked a hockey trade at the deadline so we don't lose them for nothing. Other teams have done it.

I'm not either, I'm just saying in hindsight we're better off today, and we were better off last year - without both of them. We needed a youth movement, and we're getting it.

It's semantics, but I still want to see Holland be more decisive in deciding to give younger players opportunities and not just get them through injuries and running out of waiver options.

 

[Frk It]

I'm not either, I'm just saying in hindsight we're better off today, and we were better off last year - without both of them. We needed a youth movement, and we're getting it.

It's semantics, but I still want to see Holland be more decisive in deciding to give younger players opportunities and not just get them through injuries and running out of waiver options.

You and me both.

Marchenko has made the most of his opportunity this year. Would really like to see a spot open for XO by next season. Needs to be our focus, IMO. Clear out some of this cap and redundancy.

 

[Flowah]

Hindsight is such a beautiful thing, isn't it

I have no problem with Ken not trading those players because the team made the playoffs. Had he traded them and missed the playoffs, then yes, he should have been fired (or tar and feathered). Ken Holland made the right decision at the time with the given information we had at the time.

Not sure why you're even talking about this as if its a bad thing. Wings made the playoffs and Holland proves to be a good (if not the best) GM in the league.

Cap era means risk. Without bold moves you cannot remain a contender. You have to risk that the kids you call up can handle the duties of the established players they replace. You trade the established non-core players for pieces you need. Chicago is the master at this because apparently the Bowmans win no matter what.

You can say that's a hindsight thing but if you refuse to take that kind of risk you run the risk of stagnation and running out the time of your core. I think we're seeing that Z/D/K cannot handle the duties of the core anymore. There's been a pretty steady and marked decline in all three players and I don't think it's an aberration. I expect it to continue next season. We'll probably remain a playoff team but we're using those guys are our #1/2C and #1D. I don't think that makes for a contender. Honestly I didn't think the decline would be that steep but there's been stretches where Zetterberg is just not good enough, Datsyuk is way under producing and noticeably weaker on the puck and skates, Kronwall's decline has gotten worse if anything. At this point I'm banking on Larkin taking over the reins real quick.

Yes but you forget that "making the playoffs" is a failure. Every season we should either be playing in the SCF or picking in the top 3.

I sense sarcasm but it's actually sorta true. The first part is anyway. Making the playoffs is failure. The whole point is to win it all. If what you're doing isn't towards that end then you're failing. There are management strategies you can take which keep you a non-contending playoff team. Overpay certain veterans, don't take risks on kids, don't go for high risk trades or signings, sell prospects/picks for established players. To me that seems like failure.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

If Kindl keeps scoring at PPG pace in the AHL, how long before he gets a shot at making the big club?

 

[Winger98]

I'm not either, I'm just saying in hindsight we're better off today, and we were better off last year - without both of them. We needed a youth movement, and we're getting it.

It's semantics, but I still want to see Holland be more decisive in deciding to give younger players opportunities and not just get them through injuries and running out of waiver options.

eh, I think we'd have been better off it Holland could have re-signed both of them, and moved younger kids in around them. I'm looking at the lockout year team, and if we keep Hudler, and don't sign Tootoo, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi while promoting at least Nyquist and Tatar for the start...I like that team quite a bit more. The following year, keep Flip while not signing Weiss, Alfie would be a tossup, and I think that'd been a solid move.

I agree about Holland's need for decisiveness, though. It really comes down to that, and being willing to take some risk entering a season. His risk aversion with the blueline has now buried a $2.4m contract in GR and has put a crimp into our cap management.

 

[DATS-O-MATIC]

If Kindl keeps scoring at PPG pace in the AHL, how long before he gets a shot at making the big club?

I hope you're joking...he's had several years to "make the big club" & other than a decent stretch about 2 years ago, he is garbage @ $2.4M.

he should've never been resigned when it was clear Marchenko was ready last season. we may have gotten a 7th for Kindl 1.5 yrs ago.

 

[kerjuxaxaxa]

If Kindl keeps scoring at PPG pace in the AHL, how long before he gets a shot at making the big club?

he's 29 years old... he's done.

 

[Heaton]

eh, I think we'd have been better off it Holland could have re-signed both of them, and moved younger kids in around them. I'm looking at the lockout year team, and if we keep Hudler, and don't sign Tootoo, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi while promoting at least Nyquist and Tatar for the start...I like that team quite a bit more. The following year, keep Flip while not signing Weiss, Alfie would be a tossup, and I think that'd been a solid move.

I agree about Holland's need for decisiveness, though. It really comes down to that, and being willing to take some risk entering a season. His risk aversion with the blueline has now buried a $2.4m contract in GR and has put a crimp into our cap management.

In what context? Even doing what you describing probably wouldn't have garnered better results. Babcock wasn't a big fan of Hudler and Nyquist probably never gets the role he did.

 

[Winger98]

In what context? Even doing what you describing probably wouldn't have garnered better results. Babcock wasn't a big fan of Hudler and Nyquist probably never gets the role he did.

I think we'd be a younger, faster, more skilled team. At the same time, you're right that Nyquist wouldn't have gotten the role he did, Tatar wouldn't have been up, etc. Which is part of the problem. Holland/Babcock were not interested in changing.

 

[FissionFire]

If Kindl keeps scoring at PPG pace in the AHL, how long before he gets a shot at making the big club?

Unfortunately barring an injury I don't think Kindl will be playing in Detroit again. He's really playing down there for scouts on other teams to see if they want to take a chance on him probably for next season. If he plays well I could see a team in the offseason willing to trade some token pittance for his expiring contract. The weak Canadian dollar and relatively flat growth projections for the cap have really hampered players with mid-value contracts like Kindl. Too many teams can't really afford to add a player even if they wanted them without shedding salary in return. Too many teams are up on the cap and project to be just as tight to it next year.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I sense sarcasm but it's actually sorta true. The first part is anyway. Making the playoffs is failure. The whole point is to win it all. If what you're doing isn't towards that end then you're failing. There are management strategies you can take which keep you a non-contending playoff team. Overpay certain veterans, don't take risks on kids, don't go for high risk trades or signings, sell prospects/picks for established players. To me that seems like failure.

Yes, you are absolutely right. 29 teams fail every year. It sucks for them.

Oh well. What can you do.

 

[Flowah]

Yes, you are absolutely right. 29 teams fail every year. It sucks for them.

Oh well. What can you do.

Try reading the whole thing next time. The very next sentence after the one you bolded.

"If what you're doing isn't towards that end then you're failing."

I don't consider Toronto or Buffalo to be failing. They've got a real plan and they're implementing it. You can't realistically expect to win every year or even contend every year but you can sure as hell have a solid plan to do it in the future. Then there are teams that just tread water. That is failing. There's no plan other than playoffs.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Yes, you are absolutely right. 29 teams fail every year. It sucks for them.

Oh well. What can you do.

St Louis is failing. Supposed to be cup contenders cant leave the 1st round. Rangers are not failing They are just sort of semi failing. Supposed to be cup contenders. They just couldn't get it done.

Teams that just make the playoffs just to make it are pretty much failing