Waived: Jakub Kindl

[The Zetterberg Era]

Howard doesn't belong with Ericsson and Abby, IMO.

That was fair market value, and a drop in play wasn't really predictable at the time. A lot of his fallout was injury-related.

It is really the years, all guys are at or below where their cap numbers should be.

Abby actually needs to start playing bad before his contract is a bad deal people. Now we can all expect it, but it hasn't happened yet.

Injuries have hampered both Howard and Ericsson lately. Both remain guys I would expect Las Vegas to be all over in the expansion draft though. Think one of them moves out in terms of that next summer but we have yet to get first confirmation and then the rules on who must be protected. Howard also could be dealt this summer, he has a lot more respect in GM circles than he does with our particular board. Go read the US Olympic selection committee on Howard, suffice to say even with his struggles lately a lot of well respected hockey people don't see him as the sieve he is described as often around here. Actually just like you don't here hockey people go nearly as crazy on Ericsson either for that matter.

Now both would need to waive their partial NTC, but Howard is going to want to, Ericsson is probably tricky in that regard.

 

[Fugu]

Yeah, since when do we have an internal cap?

I saw that and was like... Wtf?

Did you guys read the MLive article???

"When you're in an LTI situation the league takes a snap shot of what your payroll is at. That becomes your cap," Holland said. "On opening day, after we put Pav (Datsyuk) on LTI we got as high as we could -- $66 million – with all the moves we did. Then, unfortunately, (Johan) Franzen went on LTI 4-5 days in, and he'll be on LTI all season, so we're not getting out of LTI.
"In effect we have a $66 million cap, not a $71 million cap because of the way the rule reads. So we got to deal with it."

Of course, he's wording this incorrectly. The Wings have room to go over due to LTI, but he doesn't want to eat up next year's cap space due to bonuses (Larkin, Richards) and LTI if they use the overage space. That gets tacked on to next year's cap-- as you guys know.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The league awards (Hart, Calder, Norris, etc.) don't count against a team's cap because it's the NHL paying it.

The money does get included in the players' share (50% of HRR) for escrow retention however.

A lot of players have bonuses themselves tied up in these things with the team though if their agent has done his job.

Also since when? I think we all remember famously Toews winning the Smythe cost Chicago in the first trade off of assets. Did they close that in the last CBA, or was Toews like I eluded to a player with it in his specific contract regardless of the NHL?

 

[Frk It]

Did you guys read the MLive article???



Of course, he's wording this incorrectly. The Wings have room to go over due to LTI, but he doesn't want to eat up next year's cap space due to bonuses (Larkin, Richards) and LTI if they use the overage space. That gets tacked on to next year's cap-- as you guys know.

I missed this article, that makes way more sense.

They are just accounting for LTIR, I wouldn't call that an internal cap. Guess that is semantics though.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Oh my lord. Some of you need to relax. Holland isn't going to make a "panic trade" to get under the cap, if we even are over the cap, which I don't believe.

Worst case scenario, you dump Andy and demote March and roll with what you have til things sort themselves out, likely by IR.

Haven't even made use of a conditioning stint yet either, to my knowledge.

i think kh is highly likely to make a panic trade and to me a panic trade is one that does not help the red wings long term apart from being forced to move a body for league rules/restrictions(is roster size and or salary cap)

the reason i think this is simple.. holland doesnt make moves unless forced to by someone else and or veteran playoff rentals

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

The league awards (Hart, Calder, Norris, etc.) don't count against a team's cap because it's the NHL paying it.

The money does get included in the players' share (50% of HRR) for escrow retention however.

The maximum base rookie salary is $925,000, but an NHL team can include a number of performance-based bonuses that (along with a small signing bonus) can drive up the total cap hit to $3.75m max, if the bonuses are hit. These usually include bonuses based on winning the Calder, all-rookie selections, games played, and things like goals/points totals. ELCs and 35+ contracts an include these iirc.

All of said bonuses affect the cap hit, including any the team include for Calder wins/etc. Most high end prospects have these built into their ELCs. Any money paid by the NHL for winning the trophy separately of the contract of course does not apply to the cap hit.

 

[Fugu]

A lot of players have bonuses themselves tied up in these things with the team though if their agent has done his job.

Also since when? I think we all remember famously Toews winning the Smythe cost Chicago in the first trade off of assets. Did they close that in the last CBA, or was Toews like I eluded to a player with it in his specific contract regardless of the NHL?

Players can negotiate additional bonuses with their teams for winning one of the league awards. That's separate from the money the NHL pays to players for league awards and being designate a league All-Star at the end of the season, iirc

The league money won't count against the team's cap hit. If the player and the team have a bonus portion negotiated, the NHL counts that money in the AAV until it is no longer possible for the player to achieve the bonus. If you look at Larkin's AAV now, it's the base pay + bonus potential. If he doesn't hit his bonus potential, the Wings would only end up being hit with the $925K (or whatever the actual base pay is). With bonuses, if they're regular season bonuses, they could still be accrued for the regular season hit. Playoff bonuses would come after the league year ends (and players are paid their last check before the playoffs), so they have to tack that money on to next year's cap. I think they have the option with bonuses for the regular season to go either way, assuming they have the cap space. Overage just goes to the next season.

I missed this article, that makes way more sense.

They are just accounting for LTIR, I wouldn't call that an internal cap. Guess that is semantics though.

Holland has two choices. "Account" for LTIR and keep under the cap so he doesn't push more money to next season's cap. Or he can go over and push more money to next season.

I think the reasoning seems to be that he wants to control spending now so he can re-sign as many of the guys up for renewal as possible. The cap crunch is next year, not this year.

 

[sarcastro]

Huh? Let him play out this year and just don't re-sign him.

That doesn't solve your cap problem this year though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I believe the leagues bonus is 200K though anyway, not the much higher amount being quoted...

 

[Frk It]

That doesn't solve your cap problem this year though.

You don't need to move a contract the size of Quincey's this year, though.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Howard doesn't belong with Ericsson and Abby, IMO.

That was fair market value, and a drop in play wasn't really predictable at the time. A lot of his fallout was injury-related.

The problem with both him and Abdelkader is term. And the NMC's hurt a lot as well. Cap wise, they are both market value.

 

[sarcastro]

Did you guys read the MLive article???

Of course, he's wording this incorrectly. The Wings have room to go over due to LTI, but he doesn't want to eat up next year's cap space due to bonuses (Larkin, Richards) and LTI if they use the overage space. That gets tacked on to next year's cap-- as you guys know.

It still doesn't make sense though. They're not in a do or die cap spot. They don't "have to" get under $66m. They very well could push some of the bonuses to next season. They don't want to, but that's not the same thing as being unable to as prescribed by the CBA.

 

[Fugu]

The maximum base rookie salary is $925,000, but an NHL team can include a number of performance-based bonuses that (along with a small signing bonus) can drive up the total cap hit to $3.75m max, if the bonuses are hit. These usually include bonuses based on winning the Calder, all-rookie selections, games played, and things like goals/points totals. ELCs and 35+ contracts an include these iirc.

All of said bonuses affect the cap hit, including any the team include for Calder wins/etc. Most high end prospects have these built into their ELCs. Any money paid by the NHL for winning the trophy separately of the contract of course does not apply to the cap hit.

Isn't that what I was saying?

Outside of Larkin's base pay and the bonus of $350K for some bench mark, we (I) don't know if Larkin has the other items negotiated into his contract. That's strictly between him and the Wings. The CBA "allows" that type of structure, but it is not automatic.

Of course, for Larkin's sake, you hope his agent is a good one and negotiated these other items.

If he did, then yes, there would be another ~$2 MM that the team would need to accommodate.

 

[Fugu]

I believe the leagues bonus is 200K though anyway, not the much higher amount being quoted...

Yes, that's right. It's six not seven figure amounts.

The other figure must be coming from the theoretical maximum the league has set up in the ELC contract structure (the difference between his AAV and anything he negotiated for winning awards).

 

[Fugu]

It still doesn't make sense though. They're not in a do or die cap spot. They don't "have to" get under $66m. They very well could push some of the bonuses to next season. They don't want to, but that's not the same thing as being unable to as prescribed by the CBA.

If they're at $66MM right now and they have that list above for players who will need new contracts, you can only get there by dumping other expensive contracts, the cap increasing, or people staying at the same salary (unlikely). Or some combo thereof.


What I'm saying is that next year's cap space is more precious to Holland due to the number of guys he has to re-sign, and the cap not growing much. That's why he doesn't want to push a lot of money to next year, though he may not be able to avoid some of it regardless if post-season bonuses come into play. So if he can minimize LTI overage, that keeps more money in this year's cap hit, and out of next year's.

Keep in mind he has the Weiss buyout also showing up on his books.

 

[mindfly]

How can they be over the cap when Franzen's contract is off the cap now when he's on LTIR and Kindl in the minors?

Next season? Franzen will still be on LTIR.. so what's the problem?

 

[detredWINgs]

Yeah, so basically there is no immediate cap crunch. Holland isn't going to start making reactionary trades (Smith for a late pick, lol) because of this situation. We don't "need" to create $1M in cap space immediately. The issue, as I see it, is that Holland wants to push as little cap forward into next year as possible. So ideally, you find a way to make up that $1M, but in the meantime, all you're spending is nickels and dimes per diem. You aren't immediately burning $1M in cap space once Quincey is activated.

This is actually exactly what I suggested when everyone was wondering why Detroit wasn't calling anyone up about a month ago - Holland is saving all the nickels and dimes that he can at this point without hurting the team.

Holland has plenty of ways to get creative. Retain 500k on Kindl then trade him to Winnipeg for either Postma (950k, 1 more year) or Pardy ($1M, UFA) for a 7th. Then you can waive Postma/Pardy and incur, at most, 50k. You potentially recoup nearly ~2M by moving Kindl and taking on guys who's salary is off the books once they're in the AHL. Winnipeg gets a cheaper Kindl who is waivable without risk and they don't take up any additional contract spots in the process will getting rid of an auto-scratch in the process.

 

[sarcastro]

If they're at $66MM right now and they have that list above for players who will need new contracts, you can only get there by dumping other expensive contracts, the cap increasing, or people staying at the same salary (unlikely). Or some combo thereof.

What I'm saying is that next year's cap space is more precious to Holland due to the number of guys he has to re-sign, and the cap not growing much. That's why he doesn't want to push a lot of money to next year, though he may not be able to avoid some of it regardless if post-season bonuses come into play. So if he can minimize LTI overage, that keeps more money in this year's cap hit, and out of next year's.

Keep in mind he has the Weiss buyout also showing up on his books.

He's not framing it that way though. He's framing it as though LTIR rules are literally forcing these moves. They have options beyond that. If Chicago can weasel out of much worse cap issues every single summer, the Wings should be able to do so as well if absolutely necessary.

If he clarifies his comment along those lines, at least it will make some sense per your point. But they would still have options, unattractive as they may be.

It also worries me that they're saving cap space for Helm, who should not be re-signed.

 

[detredWINgs]

How can they be over the cap when Franzen's contract is off the cap now when he's on LTIR and Kindl in the minors?

Next season? Franzen will still be on LTIR.. so what's the problem?

There's an article somewhere out there that talked about the LTIR issue with respect to Pronger when he was still with Philly. LTIR doesn't just make the cap hit go away. I don't know the details, but using LTIR does come back to haunt you.

 

[sarcastro]

There's an article somewhere out there that talked about the LTIR issue with respect to Pronger when he was still with Philly. LTIR doesn't just make the cap hit go away. I don't know the details, but using LTIR does come back to haunt you.

I believe it hurts most at the end of camp, because you have to get under the cap with the injured player before you can LTIR them. This is not the same situation.

They have $7.25m coming off the cap next year from Q and Richards alone. Add a few more mil for Helm and possibly Miller, and you've got roughly ten mil opening up. DK and Mrazek are the only rfas that are due any kind of a raise. Sheahan hasn't earned a big contract, Andersson is dead weight, etc. I don't see the perceived cap crunch for next season either.

 

[hyduK]

I believe it hurts most at the end of camp, because you have to get under the cap with the injured player before you can LTIR them. This is not the same situation.

They have $7.25m coming off the cap next year from Q and Richards alone. Add a few more mil for Helm and possibly Miller, and you've got roughly ten mil opening up. DK and Mrazek are the only rfas that are due any kind of a raise. Sheahan hasn't earned a big contract, Andersson is dead weight, etc. I don't see the perceived cap crunch for next season either.

you aren't factoring in Stamkos' 10 mil though.

 

[detredWINgs]

He's not framing it that way though. He's framing it as though LTIR rules are literally forcing these moves. They have options beyond that. If Chicago can weasel out of much worse cap issues every single summer, the Wings should be able to do so as well if absolutely necessary.

If he clarifies his comment along those lines, at least it will make some sense per your point. But they would still have options, unattractive as they may be.

It also worries me that they're saving cap space for Helm, who should not be re-signed.

Right? All they're doing is perpetually increasing the salaries of the mediocre talents that have kept them stagnated for half a decade at this point.

They have three players on the roster who came from outside the system - Miller, Richards and Green. One of those will be gone next year. One has spent the last 7 seasons with the Wings and really his whole full-time career here. So they could effectively enter next season with literally 1 organizational outsider in Green with the only important guys looking to progress in a significant way being Larkin and Mrazek - arguably the two who are keeping your head above water this year.

You can't just keep what you have that isn't getting the job down and pay them more as time goes on.

Find a way to get rid of Kindl. Let go of Quincey and Helm. Explore the market for Howard. Move some actual roster talent for new faces. We can't keep the status quo.

 

[sarcastro]

Right? All they're doing is perpetually increasing the salaries of the mediocre talents that have kept them stagnated for half a decade at this point.

They have three players on the roster who came from outside the system - Miller, Richards and Green. One of those will be gone next year. One has spent the last 7 seasons with the Wings and really his whole full-time career here. So they could effectively enter next season with literally 1 organizational outsider in Green with the only important guys looking to progress in a significant way being Larkin and Mrazek - arguably the two who are keeping your head above water this year.

You can't just keep what you have that isn't getting the job down and pay them more as time goes on.

Find a way to get rid of Kindl. Let go of Quincey and Helm. Explore the market for Howard. Move some actual roster talent for new faces. We can't keep the status quo.

They could afford either Abby or Helm, and they made their choice. Signing Helm when AA is ready to take his place would be a massive cap blunder, not to mention the negative effect it would have on the ice. Helm is not the player he was a couple years ago when he may have been worth $3-4 mil.

 

[Ricelund]

They could afford either Abby or Helm, and they made their choice. Signing Helm when AA is ready to take his place would be a massive cap blunder, not to mention the negative effect it would have on the ice. Helm is not the player he was a couple years ago when he may have been worth $3-4 mil.

Then they should trade him ASAP and bring in AA.

In retrospect, it's sort of amazing that they let Hudler and Filppula walk for nothing. I'd hate to see the same happen with Helm (even if he's less valuable).

 

[detredWINgs]

Then they should trade him ASAP and bring in AA.

In retrospect, it's sort of amazing that they let Hudler and Filppula walk for nothing. I'd hate to see the same happen with Helm (even if he's less valuable).

Hell, you could say the same thing about Quincey. We've just spent pretty much the entire season without him and haven't looked all that different. Sure, he's an asset, but if you're getting a better defenseman back, fire away with Helm, Quincey and non-roster assets.