Jake Virtanen - Part VI

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Edit: not worth it. Jake had a tougher game last night but at the same time I didn't think he made any harmful mistakes.

 

[WTG]

At the end of the day, Utica is a business (owned by the Canucks) and winning the Calder Cup is their priority in this situation.

Prospects gaining XP is just the icing on the cake.

I really doubt an extra 2-3 minutes/game to Virtanen for a handful of games over Conacher is going to have a huge impact on his future as a player.

I'd like to see prospects getting more opportunities, but I can't say anything negative about Travis Green at this point.

At the end of the day the AHL is a developmental league and Utica was bought for the sole purpose of getting OUR prospects icetime. What we are doing is unprecedented and completely unique. Every team in the AHL puts their top prospects in the lineup. Every team but us.

We send our Hobey Baker finalist back to vancouver while Grand Rapids plays theirs. We send our 1.45PPG OHL player home while Grand Rapids plays theirs.

Our top prospects aren't getting ice time. FFS Virtanen didn't get into the lineup until he was forced to play because of a injury.

Canucks bought a AHL team to get prospects ice time not to win in a developmental league.

 

[Ho Borvat]

At the end of the day the AHL is a developmental league and Utica was bought for the sole purpose of getting OUR prospects icetime. What we are doing is unprecedented and completely unique. Every team in the AHL puts their top prospects in the lineup. Every team but us.

We send our Hobey Baker finalist back to vancouver while Grand Rapids plays theirs. We send our 1.45PPG OHL player home while Grand Rapids plays theirs.

Our top prospects aren't getting ice time. FFS Virtanen didn't get into the lineup until he was forced to play because of a injury.

Canucks bought a AHL team to get prospects ice time not to win in a developmental league.

I would agree with you, if Utica wasn't playing for the Calder Cup at the moment. Travis Greens job is to win playoff hockey games. Plain and simple. Theres no margin for error, so he can't exactly fill his lineup with guys who've never played pro hockey.

If Utica plays a young lineup and gets bounced in round 1, is that better for the team than Utica going to the final with Baertschi/Shinkaruk/Gaunce/Jensen/Clendenning/Corrado/Grenier/Virtanen/Markstrom all on the roster?

If this was regular season, I 100% agree that development should be the focus and these guys should get reps at the pro-level.

But you still have a significant portion of your prospect pool playing important hockey.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

At the end of the day the AHL is a developmental league and Utica was bought for the sole purpose of getting OUR prospects icetime. What we are doing is unprecedented and completely unique. Every team in the AHL puts their top prospects in the lineup. Every team but us.

We send our Hobey Baker finalist back to vancouver while Grand Rapids plays theirs. We send our 1.45PPG OHL player home while Grand Rapids plays theirs.

Our top prospects aren't getting ice time. FFS Virtanen didn't get into the lineup until he was forced to play because of a injury.

Canucks bought a AHL team to get prospects ice time not to win in a developmental league.

In the regular season yes it's important to get the young players games and good ice time.

In the playoffs it's important to win and the Comets have a bunch of a key Canucks prospects playing big roles in the playoff run. Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Markstrom, Baertschi and Virtanen are all playing key roles for the Comets.

What provides more development, playing a young team and not making a deep run or playing a team that has a mix of youth and veterans that makes a deep run?

 

[WTG]

In the regular season yes it's important to get the young players games and good ice time.

In the playoffs it's important to win and the Comets have a bunch of a key Canucks prospects playing big roles in the playoff run. Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Markstrom, Baertschi and Virtanen are all playing key roles for the Comets.

What provides more development, playing a young team and not making a deep run or playing a team that has a mix of youth and veterans that makes a deep run?

McCann is perfectly capable of being on the Comets.

It's not like you're going to lose a game because McCann is in the lineup. It might even make the team better.

This idea that a increased amount of prospects in the lineup makes the team weaker is false. McCann could have made just as much of an impact as Bertuzzi.

Same goes for Hutton, he played great in his 4 games. But Green chose to play Negrin over Hutton. ****ing Negrin........

Hutton came over to get that regular season experience so he was ready for the playoffs but Green CHOSE NEGRIN OVER HIM. NEGRINNNNNNNNNN NEGRINNNNNNNNNNNN

 

[Cupless44]

In the regular season yes it's important to get the young players games and good ice time.

In the playoffs it's important to win and the Comets have a bunch of a key Canucks prospects playing big roles in the playoff run. Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Markstrom, Baertschi and Virtanen are all playing key roles for the Comets.

What provides more development, playing a young team and not making a deep run or playing a team that has a mix of youth and veterans that makes a deep run?

Not only that but it is not a bad thing for the young prospects to learn early that they have to earn their ice time, it will not be handed to them regardless of where they are drafted. Hungry, competitive players to go with talent are required in the NHL.

Its not like there are no prospects playing for the Comets and soaking up the experience.

 

[Ho Borvat]

There are legit 9 prospects playing in Utica with a good shot at playing NHL games next year.

Sending home Hutton/McCann really isn't a big deal. Tonnes of our guys are getting a chanxe to play meaningful pro hockey.

- Baertschi
- Shinkaruk
- Gaunce
- Grenier
- Corrado
- Clendenning
- Jensen
- Virtanen
- Markstrom

 

[Bad Goalie]

The argument here has been not playing the kids hurts their development. Using Jensen and Schroeder as proof kind of defeats the argument. It didn't help their development at all. One was already moved out of town as a bust and the other appears well on his way.

Is there someone else in the Vancouver franchise that has proven your development point of view. These two seem to prove what they do in the playoffs has no lasting effect on their future. Just as I don't believe McCann and Hutton are now stunted in their growth and will be held back in their professional careers by not participating with the Comets any more than they would have had the Comets failed to make the playoffs and they all just went home during the Calder Cup Playoffs like last year.

Bo didn't get any playoff time and he seems to have developed just fine. Gaunce seems to be impressing you all as does Shinkaruk according to everything I'm reading on both the Comets page and their individual threads on the Vancouver HF site.

I see and understand every argument, but I think the fretting is a little over the top. Real talent will always rise to its level of potential for the most part. The game will weed out the pretenders from the real things.

 

[TheWanderer]

The argument here has been not playing the kids hurts their development. Using Jensen and Schroeder as proof kind of defeats the argument. It didn't help their development at all. One was already moved out of town as a bust and the other appears well on his way.

Is there someone else in the Vancouver franchise that has proven your development point of view. These two seem to prove what they do in the playoffs has no lasting effect on their future. Just as I don't believe McCann and Hutton are now stunted in their growth and will be held back in their professional careers by not participating with the Comets any more than they would have had the Comets failed to make the playoffs and they all just went home during the Calder Cup Playoffs like last year.

Bo didn't get any playoff time and he seems to have developed just fine. Gaunce seems to be impressing you all as does Shinkaruk according to everything I'm reading on both the Comets page and their individual threads on the Vancouver HF site.

I see and understand every argument, but I think the fretting is a little over the top. Real talent will always rise to its level of potential for the most part. The game will weed out the pretenders from the real things.

Totally agree. Hutton and McCann both probably need to work on their strength and conditioning.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

The argument here has been not playing the kids hurts their development. Using Jensen and Schroeder as proof kind of defeats the argument. It didn't help their development at all. One was already moved out of town as a bust and the other appears well on his way.

Is there someone else in the Vancouver franchise that has proven your development point of view. These two seem to prove what they do in the playoffs has no lasting effect on their future. Just as I don't believe McCann and Hutton are now stunted in their growth and will be held back in their professional careers by not participating with the Comets any more than they would have had the Comets failed to make the playoffs and they all just went home during the Calder Cup Playoffs like last year.

Bo didn't get any playoff time and he seems to have developed just fine. Gaunce seems to be impressing you all as does Shinkaruk according to everything I'm reading on both the Comets page and their individual threads on the Vancouver HF site.

I see and understand every argument, but I think the fretting is a little over the top. Real talent will always rise to its level of potential for the most part. The game will weed out the pretenders from the real things.

It lets them know what they're up against in a way that practicing just does not do. JV now knows that he has to hone his game if he wants to be successful in the pros. Doesn't mean he's going to be a great pro, but it means he's more prepared for the transition.

 

[Nick Lang]

It lets them know what they're up against in a way that practicing just does not do. JV now knows that he has to hone his game if he wants to be successful in the pros. Doesn't mean he's going to be a great pro, but it means he's more prepared for the transition.

It could be very good for him coming into camp next year having gotten a good stint of meaningful pro games under his belt. Aside from setting his sights on the Canucks next year a little time away in the summer should let him reflect on how he could have been better, and any nerves about being in a pro setting should be gone after the hype and experience of a championship.

 

[biturbo19]

Corey Pronman

Quote:
Think Virtanen will probably need another year in jr, but did talk to a scout at the AHL game last night who felt he could push for a job

And by "could" he meant he has a decent chance (before any Van fans take that out of context)

Saw this earlier as well. Interesting to note it was allegedly a non-Vancouver scout suggesting this.

Doesn't really say much more than we already kind of knew, Virtanen is in kind of an awkward spot. Could go either way depending on how camp goes really.

Interesting to hear a different (outside) perspective on it though. For whatever that's worth.



Really just feels like a situation where the CHL transfer agreement screws us a bit again, as Virtanen is certainly looking like the AHL would be the right spot for him where he's clearly "ready" for that level, but still has some real "learning" to do there.

Wonder if Virtanen will have a minor little injury in the pre-season that requires a lengthy AHL "conditioning stint" like someone we know from last season.

I kid. But it is a bit annoying the way this rule seems to pop up in so many of these cases. CHL's gotta protect their own product though i suppose. Just sucks when it impacts a top prospect's ideal development situation.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I would agree with you, if Utica wasn't playing for the Calder Cup at the moment. Travis Greens job is to win playoff hockey games. Plain and simple. Theres no margin for error, so he can't exactly fill his lineup with guys who've never played pro hockey.

If Utica plays a young lineup and gets bounced in round 1, is that better for the team than Utica going to the final with Baertschi/Shinkaruk/Gaunce/Jensen/Clendenning/Corrado/Grenier/Virtanen/Markstrom all on the roster?

If this was regular season, I 100% agree that development should be the focus and these guys should get reps at the pro-level.

But you still have a significant portion of your prospect pool playing important hockey.

I disagree, a significant responsibility Green has is developing prospects. Of course it is.

 

[604]

I think Jake belongs in the WHL. He hasn't shown true consistent dominance there and I think its something he should work on.

Would be nice to engineer a trade to a team who could help him develop better although it is likely he'd have to become the go to guy in Calgary.

 

[Cupless44]

Totally agree. Hutton and McCann both probably need to work on their strength and conditioning.

Agreed. Way to much fretting on here about Hutton and McCann by fans that really don't have a close up picture. There are plenty of prospects gaining from this playoff experience. The entire Canuck organization is on the same page and have a clear idea about the Comets team and player development.

 

[Cupless44]

I disagree, a significant responsibility Green has is developing prospects. Of course it is.

Yes...developing prospects within a winning environment so young players learn what it takes, while having to earn their ice time like they will have to throughout their careers.

Does anyone really think Green is not completely on the same page with Benning and the management team? Benning himself is huge on having veterans around to lead by example. You cant ice a team in the AHL with no veterans and all first or 2nd year prospects.

 

[WTG]

Yes...developing prospects within a winning environment so young players learn what it takes, while having to earn their ice time like they will have to throughout their careers.

Does anyone really think Green is not completely on the same page with Benning and the management team? Benning himself is huge on having veterans around to lead by example. You cant ice a team in the AHL with no veterans and all first or 2nd year prospects.

How can you earn your icetime in the press box?

Pay attention real good in the press box and you might play?

 

[Lindgren]

How can you earn your icetime in the press box?

Pay attention real good in the press box and you might play?

Good point. If a player isn't playing, he has to be judged by what he does in the press box, because, obviously, he doesn't practice, so the coaches can make no assessment of how well he picks up systems, how he does against teammates in battle drills, what his fitness level is, whether he's dealing with nagging injuries from the end of his junior season, etc. Whatever is going on in Utica, we can be sure that Green and his assistants have zero information to go on when it comes to how the prospects do in practice. No such assessment can be made.

 

[WTG]

Good point. If a player isn't playing, he has to be judged by what he does in the press box, because, obviously, he doesn't practice, so the coaches can make no assessment of how well he picks up systems, how he does against teammates in battle drills, what his fitness level is, whether he's dealing with nagging injuries from the end of his junior season, etc. Whatever is going on in Utica, we can be sure that Green and his assistants have zero information to go on when it comes to how the prospects do in practice. No such assessment can be made.

I question how good these practice assessments are if Virtanen only made the team because of an injury.

Do you really think that Virtanen would be in the lineup if Archibald didn't get injured? I don't think so.

 

[I in the Eye]

Agreed. Way to much fretting on here about Hutton and McCann by fans that really don't have a close up picture. There are plenty of prospects gaining from this playoff experience. The entire Canuck organization is on the same page and have a clear idea about the Comets team and player development.

I think McCann and Hutton can help the Comets win, if even placed in the most minor of roles over two bottom of roster replacements, with limited ice time. But, ok... I can see the other side of the argument too.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Utic...229de600eeffdbcd!2m2!1d-75.223217!2d43.127321

2 minutes away from the Utica Memorial Auditorium. According to Google Maps, there's something like 10 fitness centers within 10 minutes from the arena. Surely, they could train on strength and conditioning in one of these... and be on call when and if needed. In the meantime, soak up the atmosphere, and gain in the experience, with their friends, and future teammates... it's for the Calder Cup afterall, and the city is excited. Wear their jerseys around town. In Hutton's case, this is going to be his team next year. McCann's team, soon after. They are future parts of this team. We're not talking about fringe prospects, either. McCann and Hutton are quality prospects, who deserve investments in... and carrots. We're talking about the length of time it takes from now until this tournament ends... it will all be over very soon. Send them home? That's like giving 1 out of 3 kids ice cream and a fun time at the carnival (Virtanen), while the other 2 are sent home to do their homework. Just before the parade, or all together in a loss. All for one, and one for all. We are all Canucks (Comets)! Sounds good on paper. Not done in practice.

If I was in charge, at the very least, I'd say train in that fitness center 2 minutes away, be on call (give them a carrot, and it's true, they might actually get games if there are injuries), and here is Skype, put it on your smartphones, and while you train (over this next very short period of time), our training experts are available to give you virtual face-to-face.

To me, this is a drop of the ball.... and a missed opportunity to show a tiny little bit of investment in your quality prospects. It's weird.

 

[Tinhorn1]

At the end of the day the AHL is a developmental league and Utica was bought for the sole purpose of getting OUR prospects icetime. What we are doing is unprecedented and completely unique. Every team in the AHL puts their top prospects in the lineup. Every team but us.

We send our Hobey Baker finalist back to vancouver while Grand Rapids plays theirs. We send our 1.45PPG OHL player home while Grand Rapids plays theirs.

Our top prospects aren't getting ice time. FFS Virtanen didn't get into the lineup until he was forced to play because of a injury.

Canucks bought a AHL team to get prospects ice time not to win in a developmental league.

But Utica won. That not-really-serious-seriously-I'm-joking caveat aside, I agree with you.

 

[vanuck]

I would agree with you, if Utica wasn't playing for the Calder Cup at the moment. Travis Greens job is to win playoff hockey games. Plain and simple. Theres no margin for error, so he can't exactly fill his lineup with guys who've never played pro hockey.

If Utica plays a young lineup and gets bounced in round 1, is that better for the team than Utica going to the final with Baertschi/Shinkaruk/Gaunce/Jensen/Clendenning/Corrado/Grenier/Virtanen/Markstrom all on the roster?

If this was regular season, I 100% agree that development should be the focus and these guys should get reps at the pro-level.

But you still have a significant portion of your prospect pool playing important hockey.

Scott Arniel had no problem dropping Cody Hodgson straight into the lineup and that was a team who also went to the Calder Cup final.

 

[pullyoursocksup]

At the end of the day the AHL is a developmental league and Utica was bought for the sole purpose of getting OUR prospects icetime. What we are doing is unprecedented and completely unique. Every team in the AHL puts their top prospects in the lineup. Every team but us.

We send our Hobey Baker finalist back to vancouver while Grand Rapids plays theirs. We send our 1.45PPG OHL player home while Grand Rapids plays theirs.

Our top prospects aren't getting ice time. FFS Virtanen didn't get into the lineup until he was forced to play because of a injury.

Canucks bought a AHL team to get prospects ice time not to win in a developmental league.

this is not unprecedented whatsoever. Take a look at previous calder cup champions, look around at the player stats for other AHL teams this season if you want to. Lots of AHL teams play veterans in prominent roles, and work young players in.

I am amazed that after watching edmonton for the past 10 years, fans here still want to throw in all of our prospects (who aren't that great in comparison to other franchises, we aren't a top 10 team in terms of prospect quality) and hope they all develop like Bo Horvat.

 

[WTG]

this is not unprecedented whatsoever. Take a look at previous calder cup champions, look around at the player stats for other AHL teams this season if you want to. Lots of AHL teams play veterans in prominent roles, and work young players in.

I am amazed that after watching edmonton for the past 10 years, fans here still want to throw in all of our prospects (who aren't that great in comparison to other franchises, we aren't a top 10 team in terms of prospect quality) and hope they all develop like Bo Horvat.

Yeah Willie Desjardin's relied on vets to win the Calder cup hard and got himself a NHL job even though he's a bad coach.

What's your point? Look at Detroit they put their OHL players and their 18 year old players in the first chance they got. You really want to say that our organization develops prospects better than Detroit?


Which system would you like to copy?

A completely unique system where we are hindering prospects development by giving the nod to vets in a developmental league.
or
Detroit's system where you give the prospects a opportunity to play on the team over vets.

 

[Wilch]

this is not unprecedented whatsoever. Take a look at previous calder cup champions, look around at the player stats for other AHL teams this season if you want to. Lots of AHL teams play veterans in prominent roles, and work young players in.

I am amazed that after watching edmonton for the past 10 years, fans here still want to throw in all of our prospects (who aren't that great in comparison to other franchises, we aren't a top 10 team in terms of prospect quality) and hope they all develop like Bo Horvat.

I know right, look at teams like Detroit and LA who keeps tossing their prospects into the heat of a playoff run. All those ruined prospects!