Jake Virtanen - Part VI

[vancityluongo]

French is an excellent, experienced coach who has won a Calder Cup in the AHL and coached and won at almost every level. He's probably one of the best coaches in the WHL and probably has the best resume of anyone in that league right now.

Calgary finished with the 3rd-best record in the WHL and the other highly-drafted guys on their team (Tambellini and Sanheim) had massive breakout seasons under French. And Jake Bean had a huge year as a 16 y/o.

Everything about that team indicates it's well coached. Aside from Virtanen flatlining. So as usual, when a prospect struggles, instead of putting the onus on him to be better ... blame the coach!

Otherwise known as the Vigneault-Ballard conundrum.

 

[Proto]

ROFL you've got to "be a star on your own WHL club" before you succeed in the AHL? Oh boy. Prove it.

Well, he was 3rd on his own team in PPG, narrowly edging out 4th place Travis Sanheim (a defenseman!) and 5th place Chase Lang (whom is younger than Jake and a 6th round pick). In goal production he was 3rd in GPG (his apparent strong suit), and, again, barely edged out Chase Lang.

How many guys aren't at or near the top of their own team in production and then go on to quick success in the AHL or NHL? It can't be many. Even an all-around player like Horvat was 2nd on his (much better) CHL team in PPG and basically tied with Domi for 2nd GPG in his +1 season.

Yet people on here constantly trot out other players with "disappointing" Draft +1/+2 seasons. You hear names like Getzlaf and Carter, both of whom are non-starters. Carter led his team in PPG in his +1 season by a wide margin. Getzlaf had a "disappointing" +2 season with only 54 points in 51 games, but the next two closest players on his team had .75 PPG and .69 PPG.

It doesn't mean Jake won't figure it out, but this seems like a fairly long-term play; maybe the team keeps in the NHL to work on these uneven parts of his game, but there are definitely a lot of red flags.

 

[MS]

Otherwise known as the Vigneault-Ballard conundrum.

Or, alternately, the Arniel-Schroeder paradox.

 

[coastal_nuck]

As for Virtanen, I think most people here would agree that he had a sub-par year. Only those that hold nothing but blind faith believe otherwise. I hope he picks it up and shows that he can play a leading role effectively, otherwise this is yet another wasted pick. What is painful is that at 6th overall you have a real chance at picking an impact player that not only impacts the game on an intangible level but on the score sheet as well.

 

[MS]

I supported the Virtanen pick at the time.

 

[Proto]

I supported the Virtanen pick at the time.

I wanted Ehlers/Nylander (in that order, but I waffled), but I also said I thought Virtanen around 10-12 was a decent pick. I still think he'll end up being an NHL talent and not a bad pick, but there's a real danger in JV looking like the classic guy you'd drop from the Top 10 if you did a re-draft in 5 years.

Still lots of time for him to put it together, but it sure would be nice to see him playing 23-25 minutes a night in junior next year so everyone (lovers and haters!) can get a better read on him.

 

[Taelin]

by what metric or qualification? "number of unsuccessful virtanens"? whats the solution? it would be basically impossible - even if he were a poor coach - for french to be worse than the guy we have in the nhl. demand a trade on his behalf?

French runs his players to the ground, and refuses to give Virtanen consistent linemates.

 

[BlackAces]

French is an excellent, experienced coach who has won a Calder Cup in the AHL and coached and won at almost every level. He's probably one of the best coaches in the WHL and probably has the best resume of anyone in that league right now.

Calgary finished with the 3rd-best record in the WHL and the other highly-drafted guys on their team (Tambellini and Sanheim) had massive breakout seasons under French. And Jake Bean had a huge year as a 16 y/o.

Everything about that team indicates it's well coached. Aside from Virtanen flatlining. So as usual, when a prospect struggles, instead of putting the onus on him to be better ... blame the coach!

No it doesn't. You can be a winning coach, while being poor at developing players. Two of your three players have massive seasons are defensemen, which would mean they avoid the questionable lineup decisions that French has been accused of. The other is 20 years old now, almost a full two years older than Virtanen and he's reportedly the only guy who has been given a chance to succeed with lots of ice time and steady line mates.

 

[Canucks LB]

I still have hope with Virtanen, his toolkit is way to good to be a 3rd liner imo.

2nd liner is the low end for him. Unless he completely flat lines and turns into a Raffi torres type guy.

 

[Tiranis]

and refuses to give Virtanen consistent linemates.

Because Virtanen is known to be easy to play with. Those WJC coaches were also picking on him when they refused to give him consistent linemates. Yup.

No it doesn't. You can be a winning coach, while being poor at developing players. Two of your three players have massive seasons are defensemen, which would mean they avoid the questionable lineup decisions that French has been accused of. The other is 20 years old now, almost a full two years older than Virtanen and he's reportedly the only guy who has been given a chance to succeed with lots of ice time and steady line mates.

Can't just cherry pick who French has an effect on and who he doesn't. Just because there's a defensive coach doesn't mean that French has absolutely no input on what happens with the D. If we're talking about players who took big steps this season:

Adam Tambellini
Connor Rankin
Chase Lang
Pavel Karnaukhov
Travis Sanheim
Jake Bean

 

[Taelin]

Because Virtanen is known to be easy to play with. Those WJC coaches were also picking on him when they refused to give him consistent linemates. Yup.

The post below outlines it pretty well. And Virtanen's role on the WJC team and his role on the Hitman are completely different.

No it doesn't. You can be a winning coach, while being poor at developing players. Two of your three players have massive seasons are defensemen, which would mean they avoid the questionable lineup decisions that French has been accused of. The other is 20 years old now, almost a full two years older than Virtanen and he's reportedly the only guy who has been given a chance to succeed with lots of ice time and steady line mates.

 

[Proto]

French runs his players to the ground, and refuses to give Virtanen consistent linemates.

Then that's two coaches in a row (three if you count the World Juniors) that haven't been able to find linemates for Jake. Last year he was playing with a converted defenseman.

I'm sure it's all the various coaches fault though and not Virtanen's -- who, incidentally, was not run into the ground, since he gets 2nd-line minutes at best (15-16 minutes a night).

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Because Virtanen is known to be easy to play with. Those WJC coaches were also picking on him when they refused to give him consistent linemates. Yup.

By all accounts Virtanen did everything the coaches asked of him during the WJC.

Funny none of the haters are responding to the push back on coach French...

 

[Proto]

No it doesn't. You can be a winning coach, while being poor at developing players. Two of your three players have massive seasons are defensemen, which would mean they avoid the questionable lineup decisions that French has been accused of. The other is 20 years old now, almost a full two years older than Virtanen and he's reportedly the only guy who has been given a chance to succeed with lots of ice time and steady line mates.

Then how did Chase Lang, who is a month younger than Virtanen (and a 6th round pick) basically manage to equal Jake's production? Almost every player on that team had a reasonably good year based on their draft position/expectation -- except Jake Virtanen.

 

[Taelin]

Then that's two coaches in a row (three if you count the World Juniors) that haven't been able to find linemates for Jake. Last year he was playing with a converted defenseman.

I'm sure it's all the various coaches fault though and not Virtanen's -- who, incidentally, was not run into the ground, since he gets 2nd-line minutes at best (15-16 minutes a night).

Running guys like Adam Tambellini to the ground. Hence, Virtanen's usage.

 

[Tiranis]

The post below outlines it pretty well. And Virtanen's role on the WJC team and his role on the Hitman are completely different.

This is 3 teams in 2 years where he hasn't received consistent linemates.

 

[Proto]

By all accounts Virtanen did everything the coaches asked of him during the WJC.

Funny none of the haters are responding to the push back on coach French...

Do you have any examples of players who were as underwhelming as Virtanen -- relative to their teammates -- and were immediately successful in the AHL or NHL? I'm still waiting.

 

[MS]

French runs his players to the ground, and refuses to give Virtanen consistent linemates.

No it doesn't. You can be a winning coach, while being poor at developing players. Two of your three players have massive seasons are defensemen, which would mean they avoid the questionable lineup decisions that French has been accused of. The other is 20 years old now, almost a full two years older than Virtanen and he's reportedly the only guy who has been given a chance to succeed with lots of ice time and steady line mates.

Virtanen didn't have consistent linemates because he didn't work well with anyone after Chase was traded. Same story at the WJCs. He's a low IQ player who has individual skills but works poorly inside the framework of a line.

Disagree completely that French runs his players into the ground. Calgary were as balanced a 4-line team as you see in the WHL - 7 forwards over 40 points, all 12 regulars over 20. French went full Willie compared to a team like Medicine Hat.

Add Chase Lang as another drafted forward who had an excellent season, more than doubling his production. Literally the only guy on that team that struggled or failed to meet expectations was Virtanen.

The criticisms are laughable.

 

[DL44]

Predraft, my emotions ran with the ebs n flow of this board....

There was an early Virtanen swell, so i was on board with that after watching his highlights... then there was a swell for Richie so I looked at his highlight video n saw some Jamie Benn, so i was on board with that... then came the Ehlers push who was in complete contrast to Ritchie, but before i could warm up to that thought, people began comparing Nylander and Ehlers... so that became a battle in itself for the skill aspect.... So around and around it went, with a tonne of discussion and debate... I was spinning in trying to figure out which i preferred, our whole board was spinning about who they preferred.

So when the draft came and we got the guy we all initially discussed and wanted but then didn't want or were unsure... I was just like - ok, I'll just trust the pros in charge that they got the best guy and be happy and board with the pick...

I find the huge swell of negativity to be unfair, but it's easy to understand when you see 52pts in 51gms. I still have some huge optimism for him surprising the naysayers... Can't wait to see him with a full healthy off season of training and gains... something he missed out on last summer...

A whole summer of training lost at the age 17. Can't wait till camp.

 

[Tiranis]

Tambellini's estimated ES TOI is 22 minutes. He's not even top 30 in estimated ES ice-time amongst all WHL forwards.

(Barzal played half the game, by comparison.)

 

[BlackAces]

Because Virtanen is known to be easy to play with. Those WJC coaches were also picking on him when they refused to give him consistent linemates. Yup.



Can't just cherry pick who French has an effect on and who he doesn't. Just because there's a defensive coach doesn't mean that French has absolutely no input on what happens with the D. If we're talking about players who took big steps this season:

Adam Tambellini
Connor Rankin
Chase Lang
Pavel Karnaukhov
Travis Sanheim
Jake Bean

As far as I can tell from your list of players, three of the players are the first line that has been the only line to stay together all year, two of which are 20; two are defencemen, and the other is an unknown 18 year old who is having a very good first year. I'm not saying he doesn't have input on the D either, I'm saying that it's very likely his approach to the defensive pairings is different from how he handles the forwards

 

[Proto]

Running guys like Adam Tambellini to the ground. Hence, Virtanen's usage.

Tambellini had 26 points in 16 playoff games. He didn't seem that run into the ground to me. Teams typically play their best players a lot of minutes in order to win hockey games, no?

 

[MS]

Tambellini had 26 points in 16 playoff games. He didn't seem that run into the ground to me. Teams typically play their best players a lot of minutes in order to win hockey games, no?

Recent Canucks history tells me otherwise.

 

[Tiranis]

As far as I can tell from your list of players, three of the players are the first line that has been the only line to stay together all year, two of which are 20; two are defencemen, and the other is an unknown 18 year old who is having a very good first year.

I have no idea where you went with that. I'm aware of how old those players and who they are. He got a lot out of two other young forwards. He's not the first coach to struggle with Virtanen. (It's not like anybody other than Virtanen struggled. I mentioned guys who progressed a lot. Other guys improved or stayed the same but no one expected more out of many of them.)

We all assumed that Schroeder and Jensen were mishandled and how did that go? Good players find a way to make a difference at those levels because they're usually so much better that you can't hold them back.

 

[Proto]

Recent Canucks history tells me otherwise.

lol when I posted it I did have this fleeting thought in my head: "except for our $*&#ing coach of course". The exception to prove the rule, I suppose...