Jake Muzzin discussions (continued)

[Mess]

Old thread is full, lets continue on here.

Click to read more...

 

[zeke]

Muzzin: 19gms, 48pt pace, +6, 52.1cf%, 52.7scf%

Leafs Before trade: 30-17-2, 104pt pace, 3.55gfa, 2.86gaa, +.69gdiff, 51.7cf%, 52.2scf%
Leafs Since trade: 12-4-3, 117pt pace, 3.68gfa, 2.79gaa, +.89gdiff, 51.7cf%, 52.5scf%

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

Muzzin: Top beard on the team by far yeah? Only competition is when Johnnson dyed half of his beard blonde in one of his Instagram posts.

 

[Zybalto]

Dubas deserves massive praise picking him up when he did with the double whammy of Gards and Dermott going down.

One of the best trades of the year that addressed the perceived toughness and defensive depth issues.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Dubas deserves massive praise picking him up when he did with the double whammy of Gards and Dermott going down.

One of the best trades of the year that addressed the perceived toughness and defensive depth issues.

Yup I see some saying he's not a RHD - but it's not like they leafs haven't been looking for one for a few years. Not easy to come by and will probably happen in the summer

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I feel like our defense without Muzzin needs to sticked at the top of the thread to slap anyone right in the face as to what our defense would be looking like right now without him.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Everyone will be singing his praises after Boston series. He is our ONLY chance to hold off Boston in a game 7. But playing him with Z is a disaster.

Z is a bad NHL defense. He may be a #7 fill in kinda of guy. But he should not be in a top 6 of an NHL team going for a Cup.

 

[zeke]

Z is a bad NHL defense. He may be a #7 fill in kinda of guy. But he should not be in a top 6 of an NHL team going for a Cup.

and you want McQuaid on this team?

 

[araisarena]

he's been unreal. I think because his IQ is so high and he makes so many good decisions with the pucks, it masks his somewhat average footspeed. He skates backwards well, great gap control, you never see him give up anything in his own end, and he makes all the cute little passes up center in D-zone to get it out. And his shooting adds a different element. It sucks that him and Big Z have the same frame and Z is a better skater, yet it's night and day who the better hockey player is.

 

[justafan22]

If he wasn't a Leaf, who'se the 3rd pairing LHD?

Oleksy, Jardine?

 

[Zybalto]

Everyone will be singing his praises after Boston series. He is our ONLY chance to hold off Boston in a game 7. But playing him with Z is a disaster.

Z is a bad NHL defense. He may be a #7 fill in kinda of guy. But he should not be in a top 6 of an NHL team going for a Cup.

Zaitsev was arguably our best dman against the Bruins last year.

Destroyed them on the boards and the Bruins got little zone time compared to the other pairings. Was also our best PK guy.

Got burned in the rush a couple times though so has to be careful when he or his partner pinches.

Analytics were borderline elite from series and led all dmen on all teams in the playoffs in REL expected goals%

I'm not saying hes going to repeat that but he was a beast for us last year in just the way many have been calling for. Dont know how they missed it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Analytics say Gards is good too.

I have a very simple rules I watch for in defenders. Are they always between their man and the net? Are they scared to get puck first in corner when they should? Will they keep net clear for shots so goalie can see the puck? Can they eat the puck on boards when required? Do they throw stupid passes up the middle? Do they always make the safe play so not to get scored on? Will they take the man so as to separate attacker from the puck and take control?

When I look at Gards and Z all I see is both of them breaking every single rule. They were never trained properly as kids. Yes they are both good skaters.

 

[93WrapAround]

Trying to quote/reply from previous thread and will most likely fail...

lol eyetest from guys like Kypreos???? No thanks.
The eye test and superficial goal stats got us Clarkson, remember?
And I love the Gardiner reference when Rielly has more giveaways. But omg, when Rielly gives away the puck, its never as important as when Jake G does, right???

It was TSN I mentioned, not Sportsnet - furthermore, I didn't say NHL analyst opinions are the be-end-all, just highlighting that a lot of people would say Jake had a very tough game, one of his worst, on a night where his underlying stats were supposedly good.

"superficial goal stats" is not the eye test - they're still stats.

giveaways you're going by are still actually stats, recorded by humans. so what makes it better than the eye test? it's the stat-recorder's eye test no?

you can continue to argue this point if you wish, but stats only tell a fraction of the story. concluding a player is great/crap based on stats is missing a MASSIVE component (eye-test). some players clearly can have good stats and not be good players. hence, using stats to prove a players worth is useless in and of itself.

 

[zeke]

It was TSN I mentioned, not Sportsnet - furthermore, I didn't say NHL analyst opinions are the be-end-all, just highlighting that a lot of people would say Jake had a very tough game, one of his worst, on a night where his underlying stats were supposedly good.

Stop listening to the talking heads.

They are lazy and barely even watch the games.

 

[93WrapAround]

Stop listening to the talking heads.

They are lazy and barely even watch the games.

I form my own opinions on players.

But on an internet forum, how far will "I watched the game and concluded he had a poor game" get you? Hence, it doesn't hurt to point out that an entire panel made it an intermission segment to discuss his poor game (with video), to add to the quoted argument. Stats heads will simply use stats as a concluding argument as to whether player X had a good game, or is good this season, etc. It's flawed and wrong. Stick with the point I'm making - not cherry picking something irrelevant.

 

[zeke]

I form my own opinions on players.

But on an internet forum, how far will "I watched the game and concluded he had a poor game" get you? Hence, it doesn't hurt to point out that an entire panel made it an intermission segment to discuss his poor game (with video), to add to the quoted argument. Stats heads will simply use stats as a concluding argument as to whether player X had a good game, or is good this season, etc. It's flawed and wrong. Stick with the point I'm making - not cherry picking something irrelevant.

1. Every defender makes mistakes. Even the best ones. We made Giordano look like a fool last game we played against him. He is still the likely Norris winner. Making a few mistakes doesn't mean anything, really.

2. Stop listening to the talking heads. Their lazy hottakes make us dumber, not more informed.

 

[LEBOOM]

Muzzin: 19gms, 48pt pace, +6, 52.1cf%, 52.7scf%

Leafs Before trade: 30-17-2, 104pt pace, 3.55gfa, 2.86gaa, +.69gdiff, 51.7cf%, 52.2scf%
Leafs Since trade: 12-4-3, 117pt pace, 3.68gfa, 2.79gaa, +.89gdiff, 51.7cf%, 52.5scf%

Women lie, men lie, numbers don't

According to half the Leaf "fans" on this site Muzzin is the worst thing to ever happen to this team and Dubas overpaid

 

[LEBOOM]

Trying to quote/reply from previous thread and will most likely fail...



It was TSN I mentioned, not Sportsnet - furthermore, I didn't say NHL analyst opinions are the be-end-all, just highlighting that a lot of people would say Jake had a very tough game, one of his worst, on a night where his underlying stats were supposedly good.

"superficial goal stats" is not the eye test - they're still stats.

giveaways you're going by are still actually stats, recorded by humans. so what makes it better than the eye test? it's the stat-recorder's eye test no?

you can continue to argue this point if you wish, but stats only tell a fraction of the story. concluding a player is great/crap based on stats is missing a MASSIVE component (eye-test). some players clearly can have good stats and not be good players. hence, using stats to prove a players worth is useless in and of itself.

Those same talking heads you're praising and treating like the gospel thought it was a great idea to trade Marner over Brown last year when Marner was going through a slump. 90% of the people in the hockey industry got there either by being a former player,coach or FO member or networking.

 

[Al14]

Dubas deserves massive praise picking him up when he did with the double whammy of Gards and Dermott going down.

One of the best trades of the year that addressed the perceived toughness and defensive depth issues.

Dubas could have qualified for an instant membership into Mensa International if he had only picked up another decent D at the trade deadline!

 

[93WrapAround]

1. Every defender makes mistakes. Even the best ones. We made Giordano look like a fool last game we played against him. He is still the likely Norris winner. Making a few mistakes doesn't mean anything, really.

2. Stop listening to the talking heads. Their lazy hottakes make us dumber, not more informed.

1. So what's your point here? Who said that a few mistakes dictate players worth? You're making strawman arguments out of thin air here. Did Giordano still have a bad game? Likely yes. Mistakes clearly are part of the evaluation of a good game or bad one. Mistakes accumulated over a career or season start to accumulate toward a player being good or bad. Nowhere did I say that a bad game = a bad player or bad season. Focus, bud.

2. As mentioned, I gather my opinions on my own. Shall we do this song and dance once more to complete the hat-trick? Furthermore, similar to your irrelevant Giordano point, just because one "talking head" makes dumb hot takes, doesn't mean he either A. always does, or B. they all do. A-B-C- Always Be Filtering (#glengarryglenross) - some stupid articles or news doesn't mean that all news is stupid. Common sense, really.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

When everyone is healthy, he should play with Rielly imo

 

[Wendelstache]

Everyone will be singing his praises after Boston series. He is our ONLY chance to hold off Boston in a game 7. But playing him with Z is a disaster.

Z is a bad NHL defense. He may be a #7 fill in kinda of guy. But he should not be in a top 6 of an NHL team going for a Cup.

funny enough, i think Z has look a lot better than Muzzin in that pairing.
Z been doing a better job at covering for Muzzin than he does Gardiner..

 

[Osprey]

Giveaways

1.Matheson 111
2.Burns 101
3.Petry 99
4.Ekblad 96
5.Yandle 93
6.Doughty 92
7.Muzzin 88
8.Heiskanen 82
9.Brodie 81
10.Carlson 77
11.Provorov 76
12.Rielly 74
13.Lindholm 72
14.Letang 71
15.Orlov 70


List of terrible dmen right there.

Why don't you mention the Defenceman ahead of him in giveaways. You know, Drew Doughty, Brent Burns, Jeff Petry etc.

Toilets, all of them.

*Edit, beaten by Zeke

The trade forum thread got closed down, so I'll respond to you both here.

It's one thing to be high on the giveaways list if you're a #1 or #2 defenseman who gets the most minutes and the toughest matchups . It's another to be high on it when you're getting 2nd-pairing minutes and softer matchups, like Muzzin is. After all, if one of your bottom-pairing defensemen were near the top of the giveaways list, would you still dismiss it because he's in the company of top-pairing defensemen? You probably wouldn't, so you shouldn't so easily dismiss it for a 2nd-pairing defenseman, either, IMO.

 

[Nineteen67]

The trade forum thread got closed down, so I'll respond to you both here.

It's one thing to be high on the giveaways list if you're a #1 or #2 defenseman who gets the most minutes and the toughest matchups . It's another to be high on it when you're getting 2nd-pairing minutes and softer matchups, like Muzzin is. After all, if one of your bottom-pairing defensemen were near the top of the giveaways list, would you still dismiss it because he's in the company of top-pairing defensemen? You probably wouldn't, so you shouldn't so easily dismiss it for a 2nd-pairing defenseman, either, IMO.

And what is a give away? Burns was real high last year, too.

 

[diceman934]

Analytics say Gards is good too.

I have a very simple rules I watch for in defenders. Are they always between their man and the net? Are they scared to get puck first in corner when they should? Will they keep net clear for shots so goalie can see the puck? Can they eat the puck on boards when required? Do they throw stupid passes up the middle? Do they always make the safe play so not to get scored on? Will they take the man so as to separate attacker from the puck and take control?

When I look at Gards and Z all I see is both of them breaking every single rule. They were never trained properly as kids. Yes they are both good skaters.

You forgot a key one. Where is their stick when defending against the rush. Zaitsev stick is no where near where it should be.

I watch reads and rotations as these to me are key indicators of who is playing within the teams system or are freelancing.

Zaitsev first year here everyone on here loved him or most did. I disliked him as he missed easy reads and Rotations and hung out Rielly to dry.

Zaitsev has made Gardiner look bad as well. He has his own struggles with indecisive play but reading off of Zaitsev is near impossible. Gardiner could stand to be a little braver. Muzzin Gardiner pairing would be fine. Gardiner has enough skill both skating and stick skills to play his weak side.