News Article: Jake Gardiner and the Toronto Maple Leafs blueline

[Holymakinaw]

Who have those teams overpaid for?

LOL. Gionta, Gomez(until recently), Brad Richards, Rick Nash, Girardi, Hartnell, Lecavalier, Streit, Marchand, Seidenberg, Crawford, Hjalmarsson, Bickell.

And for us......Phaneuf, Clarkson(our only really bad one right now), Kessel. At least Phaneuf and Kessel lead this team.

Every wealthy team has to share the wealth somewhat. I'm not saying we couldn't have tried harder for lower contracts, or that some players don't have off years and don't live up to their contracts, but it's hardly a phenomenon unique to Toronto.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Watching real teams play it is glaringly obvious our problem.

We have 0 breakout. The quick outs along the boards and smart little plays that gain the neutral zone are something we do not have.

The forwards are not on the same page as the D; so we are left forcing an out or waiting for the opposition to break down so we can rush the puck.

Our D has a plethora of puckmovers - our system is built for shutdowners. (block shots, battle , battle - force turnovers and pounce on opportunities)

I'm skeptical this system even works with the right D.

 

[Daisy Jane]

They were legit questions. You said peers? What peers?

everyone and their mother who played one minute of hockey and looked at the leafs and said "what the hell are they doing?" it was on the radio by hockey analysts, former players and everyone

And no. Randy Carlyle isn't going to come out and say "well my system isn't a system at all." but - the fact that

A: they changed it with 5 games left in the season to go (excuse me while I ) (Scott Gordon interview with Mirtle).

B: Bernier stated several times that this system pretty much isn't conducive to winning anything - that LA (and other good teams that he has seen ie: the west), plays a different defensive set up, and that limits the shots on goals and there's more puck possession. and that even if we made the playoffs, we were not getting far with the way of defense that we played. (TSN radio)

C: Gleason is case positive. He was really great when he first got here - and he sucked as the games played on. Why? He was learning the stupid system we have in place. (source: watching his 39 games as a Leaf). Also Lupul commented that something was off - but they were committed to the system that they played.

D: the fact that Shanahan had one on one interviews with most of the players AS WELL AS sitting in the exit interviews, then came out and said that the players did not trust the system at all, and felt that led to their downfall. (but they committed to it anyway), made HIM remove the pieces that actually insituted that system: Dave Farrish (and the rest of the assistant coaches ), (pick your local paper, he went through rounds a few weeks ago). ergo: meaning the new coaches that do come in will have a defensive system that makes SENSE - that will include a puck possession plan, and improve our effectiveness on the powerplay, and help our penalty kill be at least 15th in the league.

 

[morrielly]

Until the trade deadline Gardiner played a lesser role. IMO Carlyle asked Nonis for some help on the d and Nonis failed so Carlyle played it the Nonis way and let players play without a system. That worked out well didn't it.

Carlyle suggesting that he should have kept Gardiners lease short was exactly the right thing to do.

No offense, but that is probably the absolute most dumbest theory i have heard behind our collapse.

So you're saying that at the trade deadline , carlyle asked nonis to trade for some defence. And when he didn't acquire defence, carlyle was like, fine we'll just have this team play however they want because clearly without a trade for some defense we are screwed(we had one of the best records inthe east at the time). Its not like i have something to lose from the team playing without a system. Not like its my job or anything.

 

[Daisy Jane]

No offense, but that is probably the absolute most dumbest theory i have heard behind our collapse.

So you're saying that at the trade deadline , carlyle asked nonis to trade for some defence. And when he didn't acquire defence, carlyle was like, fine we'll just have this team play however they want because clearly without a trade for some defense we are screwed(we had one of the best records inthe east at the time). Its not like i have something to lose from the team playing without a system. Not like its my job or anything.

oooh man. that is my gigglefest for the day.

 

[HonestHockey*]

everyone and their mother who played one minute of hockey and looked at the leafs and said "what the hell are they doing?" it was on the radio by hockey analysts, former players and everyone

And no. Randy Carlyle isn't going to come out and say "well my system isn't a system at all." but - the fact that

A: they changed it with 5 games left in the season to go (excuse me while I ) (Scott Gordon interview with Mirtle).

B: Bernier stated several times that this system pretty much isn't conducive to winning anything - that LA (and other good teams that he has seen ie: the west), plays a different defensive set up, and that limits the shots on goals and there's more puck possession. and that even if we made the playoffs, we were not getting far with the way of defense that we played. (TSN radio)

C: Gleason is case positive. He was really great when he first got here - and he sucked as the games played on. Why? He was learning the stupid system we have in place. (source: watching his 39 games as a Leaf). Also Lupul commented that something was off - but they were committed to the system that they played.

D: the fact that Shanahan had one on one interviews with most of the players AS WELL AS sitting in the exit interviews, then came out and said that the players did not trust the system at all, and felt that led to their downfall. (but they committed to it anyway), made HIM remove the pieces that actually insituted that system: Dave Farrish (and the rest of the assistant coaches ), (pick your local paper, he went through rounds a few weeks ago). ergo: meaning the new coaches that do come in will have a defensive system that makes SENSE - that will include a puck possession plan, and improve our effectiveness on the powerplay, and help our penalty kill be at least 15th in the league.

Do you really think that Carlyle wants his team to hand the puck over And sit back while the other team fires away? How asinine is that statement? It's quite obvious he's got a number of defensemen that couldn't win a battle for the puck if they were paid and a forward group who can't retrieve a pass along the boards and fight until it gets out. Do you think you win possession with weak players on the puck?

He had to collapse forwards because one on one our defense lost every battle.

We have players who can't play the successful NHL game. Plain and simple. Shanahan sees it or Carlyle woulda been gone. Nonis failed and Leweike made the call on him not Shanahan.

 

[FifthLine]

Do you really think that Carlyle wants his team to hand the puck over And sit back while the other team fires away? How asinine is that statement? It's quite obvious he's got a number of defensemen that couldn't win a battle for the puck if they were paid and a forward group who can't retrieve a pass along the boards and fight until it gets out. Do you think you win possession with weak players on the puck?

He had to collapse forwards because one on one our defense lost every battle.

We have players who can't play the successful NHL game. Plain and simple. Shanahan sees it or Carlyle woulda been gone. Nonis failed and Leweike made the call on him not Shanahan.

No its the fact that he doesn't adapt. His system may work in some cases with some teams, but clearly it wasn't working with this team. Good coaches adapt, he did not. Now this offseason he was forced to change his system going into next season.

 

[HonestHockey*]

No its the fact that he doesn't adapt. His system may work in some cases with some teams, but clearly it wasn't working with this team. Good coaches adapt, he did not. Now this offseason he was forced to change his system going into next season.

No. Good teams build players around a winning system not adapt to the players. It's why players even at young ages can be moved.

 

[Duke Silver]

The Goals For and Goals Against mean absolutely nothing without standardizing the sample relative to time on ice.

And the plus/minus stat needs to die in a fire. Immediately.

 

[Daisy Jane]

No. Good teams build players around a winning system not adapt to the players. It's why players even at young ages can be moved.

soooo.... did New York become a good team before or after they fired Torts and hired AV, and only really made one or two changes (MDZ for Klein for example and trading Callahan for MSL)? the coach saw the players he had and adapted the system that worked for him with the players he had.

Torts takes his system and grinds them to nubs.


good coaches adapt. period.

 

[HonestHockey*]

soooo.... did New York become a good team before or after they fired Torts and hired AV, and only really made one or two changes (MDZ for Klein for example and trading Callahan for MSL)? the coach saw the players he had and adapted the system that worked for him with the players he had.

Torts takes his system and grinds them to nubs.


good coaches adapt. period.

That's crap. Recognizing who can play and not play a system is key. Having the balls to move a player down the lineup or out of the lineup is AV.

Ever ask yourself why Carlyle is still here? Shoulda been an easy fire right? Shanahan gets it. He knew they had to do something so assistants to the hit bc Lewieke saved Nonis. Wrong players with zero support for the core.

 

[PuckMagi]

Gardiner is awesome and he will be even better next year if he isn't paired with Franson.

Gunner is good, but would be better suited to playing a 3rd pairing role with maybe someone like Gleason.

Our whole team will improve just by getting rid of Franson.

 

[Mansfield]

Do you really think that Carlyle wants his team to hand the puck over And sit back while the other team fires away? How asinine is that statement? It's quite obvious he's got a number of defensemen that couldn't win a battle for the puck if they were paid and a forward group who can't retrieve a pass along the boards and fight until it gets out. Do you think you win possession with weak players on the puck?

He had to collapse forwards because one on one our defense lost every battle.

We have players who can't play the successful NHL game. Plain and simple. Shanahan sees it or Carlyle woulda been gone. Nonis failed and Leweike made the call on him not Shanahan.

no, but he wants his team to collapse so low that the forwards simply can't get in place for a breakout in good time, making our dman either tie it up for a long time (increasing the chances they lose the the battle) or dump it out

you can win possession with smart plays, by being in the right place at the right time. every player in the nhl can win puck battles, that's how they get to the big show

 

[Mansfield]

Gardiner is awesome and he will be even better next year if he isn't paired with Franson.

Gunner is good, but would be better suited to playing a 3rd pairing role with maybe someone like Gleason.

Our whole team will improve just by getting rid of Franson.

our team would improve far more by getting rid of gleason as opposed to franson. gleason is franson without any scoring ability

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

LOL. Gionta, Gomez(until recently), Brad Richards, Rick Nash, Girardi, Hartnell, Lecavalier, Streit, Marchand, Seidenberg, Crawford, Hjalmarsson, Bickell.

And for us......Phaneuf, Clarkson(our only really bad one right now), Kessel. At least Phaneuf and Kessel lead this team.

Every wealthy team has to share the wealth somewhat. I'm not saying we couldn't have tried harder for lower contracts, or that some players don't have off years and don't live up to their contracts, but it's hardly a phenomenon unique to Toronto.

Most of those guys are not overpaid. And I dont know why you put Hjalmarsson and Seidenberg in the same group as Gomez and Nash. Hjalmarsson @ $4.1m and Seidenberg at $4m are good deals for very good players who are key players on strong defensive units. If we could have just one of those guys we would look much better. Imagine both at the price of $8.1m? Wow, that would be something to be happy about.

And I dont know if I would call Kessel overpaid either. His type of players dont get paid for their overall game but for what they produce offensively. He might be the 43rd ranked player if the coaches and GM´s have their say but he can put up the numbers like the best of them and will of course be paid for it. $8m is of course no discount on his behalf and something he would have been getting as UFA. But then again, money has always been prio one for him.

Phaneuf and Clarkson how ever are overpaid by a couple of millions.

 

[FifthLine]

That's crap. Recognizing who can play and not play a system is key. Having the balls to move a player down the lineup or out of the lineup is AV.

Ever ask yourself why Carlyle is still here? Shoulda been an easy fire right? Shanahan gets it. He knew they had to do something so assistants to the hit bc Lewieke saved Nonis. Wrong players with zero support for the core.

Oh so Shannahan is in full support of Carlyle and his system? Funny because he basically took away his assistants and isn't giving Carlyle a choice of who the new ones are, something Caryle use to have a say in. Not to mention they basically told him, if your coming back, your changing the system, period.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This quote over a week ago speaks volumes to me.

Nick Kypreos @RealKyper · Jun 5
#Leafs remain aggressive in #NHL trade market. The only 4 players I hear they are not actively shopping are Bernier Kessel Bozak and Rielly

I would not be surprised if Gardiner is or is not a Leaf by the end of the Summer.

Think it is very obvious, Rielly is the future of the Leafs D. Smart evaluation.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Oh so Shannahan is in full support of Carlyle and his system? Funny because he basically took away his assistants and isn't giving Carlyle a choice of who the new ones are, something Caryle use to have a say in. Not to mention they basically told him, if your coming back, your changing the system, period.

What are you talking about? Shanahan has said several times Carlyle will be totally involved in hiring of assistants.

 

[mulefarm]

He is definitely a core player for the Leafs future. Gained a ton of experience this season and really showed the last 20-25 games. After 167 games he has 65 pts, is a minus 5, plays over 21 minutes/game. After 161 games Stralman had 46 pts, a minus 29 and played about 16 minutes/game. Way to early to give up on Gardiner. They should lock him up for 4-5 yrs at 4-4.5 per year.

 

[HonestHockey*]

He is definitely a core player for the Leafs future. Gained a ton of experience this season and really showed the last 20-25 games. After 167 games he has 65 pts, is a minus 5, plays over 21 minutes/game. After 161 games Stralman had 46 pts, a minus 29 and played about 16 minutes/game. Way to early to give up on Gardiner. They should lock him up for 4-5 yrs at 4-4.5 per year.

I'd bet he isn't wearing Leaf colours next year.

 

[sda]

Oh so Shannahan is in full support of Carlyle and his system? Funny because he basically took away his assistants and isn't giving Carlyle a choice of who the new ones are, something Caryle use to have a say in. Not to mention they basically told him, if your coming back, your changing the system, period.

Shannahan mentioned the swarm but I still cant believe that the leafs were using that system. If they were it was very poorly executed. It actually looked like they were playing the complete opposite of the swarm

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'd bet he isn't wearing Leaf colours next year.

So that rules out Tampa

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

I'd bet he isn't wearing Leaf colours next year.

I agree with this...I don't understand why others refuse to acknowledge how bad Gardner is defensively...I think Carlyle's comments about Gardner from the exit interviews clearly is a 'hint' of his feelings about the player...In other words Gardner compared himself to other great defensemen and Carlyle thought it was a ridiculous thing to say...Randy said he'd do things differently from the start of the season and one thing will be to insist that Gardner play a responsible defensive game or face the consequences of getting benched...We won't see Gardner pinching,for instance, (recklessly) next season if he isn't traded.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Shannahan mentioned the swarm but I still cant believe that the leafs were using that system. If they were it was very poorly executed. It actually looked like they were playing the complete opposite of the swarm

Players can't play it. Let's go back to Ronnie's uptempo game. Worked well.

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

Shannahan mentioned the swarm but I still cant believe that the leafs were using that system. If they were it was very poorly executed. It actually looked like they were playing the complete opposite of the swarm

What is the swarm system exactly?