Jagr vs Ovechkin vs Crosby: Who is the best offensive player

[Midnight Judges]

And one also needs to consider that Crosby was never used as pure offensive weapon like Jagr and Ovechkin, both of whom were, as close to literally as you can get, not contributing on the defensive side of things. This isn't a critique; simply acknowledging that Crosby produced as well as Jagr without sacrificing on the defensive side of things.

That is flat out false. Crosby's defensive results are no better than Ovechkin's:

09/10 through 18/19 Regular Season
	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	481	379	548	470	493	240
EV TOI	10717	10251	12218	11276	12350	8438
Total EV GA/60	2.693	2.218	2.691	2.501	2.395	1.707
PPSHGA	53	24	51	31	31	16
PP TOI	2610	1933	3271	2198	2405	1343
Total	1.218	0.745	0.935	0.846	0.773	0.715
EV+PP GA	534	403	599	501	524	256
EV+PP TOI	13327	12184	15489	13474	14755	9781
EV+PPGA/60	2.404	1.985	2.320	2.231	2.131	1.570
PK TOI	295	1417	21	1156	1493	295
PK TOI/GP	27 seconds	1:57	2 seconds	1:35	1:57	41 seconds

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"PPSHGA" = power play short handed goals against.

And playoffs:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin doesn't have Lemieux or Malkin, so it will be The Great 8 when all said and done. For now it's Jagr>Ovi>Crosby, then Ovi>Jagr>Crosby

Somebody who puts up 65, 69, 71, all in his prime is better than jagr?

 

[Gurglesons]

That is flat out false. Crosby's defensive results are no better than Ovechkin's:

09/10 through 18/19 Regular Season
	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	481	379	548	470	493	240
EV TOI	10717	10251	12218	11276	12350	8438
Total EV GA/60	2.693	2.218	2.691	2.501	2.395	1.707
PPSHGA	53	24	51	31	31	16
PP TOI	2610	1933	3271	2198	2405	1343
Total	1.218	0.745	0.935	0.846	0.773	0.715
EV+PP GA	534	403	599	501	524	256
EV+PP TOI	13327	12184	15489	13474	14755	9781
EV+PPGA/60	2.404	1.985	2.320	2.231	2.131	1.570
PK TOI	295	1417	21	1156	1493	295
PK TOI/GP	27 seconds	1:57	2 seconds	1:35	1:57	41 seconds

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"PPSHGA" = power play short handed goals against.

And playoffs:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It was written and so it has been proven.

 

[TheProspector]

How many times does this illogical argument need to be dismantled?

What you are actually arguing is that Jagr stood out from the pack in the '90s because of his physical stature; something that would be less of a difference in today's game. It would be smaller players like Kariya and Sakic that, in theory, would thrive more in the current NHL.

What actually happened in the '90s was everyone saw their numbers go down; no type/size of player was immune. Jagr would be no more dominant in today's game than he was in the '90s.

lol

Jagr put up 66 points in 79GP as a f***ing 43 year-old -- playing at just 17 minutes a game. Almost all ES. And he looked pretty dominant. You couldn't take the puck away from him.

At his peak, the combination of his his physical stature and puck skills would have made him completely untouchable with the puck.

Shit, he was actually a dominant producer (just at significantly reduced minutes -- but his production rate remained elite) when he was 44.

He would have absolutely rekt it in today's puck possession style. He was the puck possession OG.

 

[Acallabeth]

Somebody who puts up 65, 69, 71, all in his prime is better than jagr?

Well, first of all, Ovechkin was obviously past his prime those years, second of all, Jagr himself had relatively poor seasons on the Capitals in the league with less parity.

I think Jagr is comfortably ahead of AO and Sid in this matter, and I don't see that ever changing. 4 120+ points seasons, 5 Art Rosses, 2nd most points ever is tremendously good.
AO/Sid is a matter of preference, Ovechkin has the higher peak, Crosby has been more consistent, both aged well. I love Ovi, so I picked him.

 

[daver]

lol

Jagr put up 66 points in 79GP as a f***ing 43 year-old -- playing at just 17 minutes a game. Almost all ES. And he looked pretty dominant. You couldn't take the puck away from him.

He was 8th in scoring as a f***ing 35 year old in 06/07. See I can cherrypick stats too.

 

[TheProspector]

How many times does this illogical argument need to be dismantled?

What you are actually arguing is that Jagr stood out from the pack in the '90s because of his physical stature; something that would be less of a difference in today's game. It would be smaller players like Kariya and Sakic that, in theory, would thrive more in the current NHL.

What actually happened in the '90s was everyone saw their numbers go down; no type/size of player was immune. Jagr would be no more dominant in today's game than he was in the '90s.

lol

Jagr put up 66 points in 79GP as a f***ing 43 year-old -- playing at just 17 minutes a game. Almost all ES. And he looked pretty dominant. You couldn't take the puck away from him. He just got winded more quickly because he was old.

At his peak, the combination of his his physical stature and puck skills would have made him completely untouchable with the puck.

Shit, he was actually a dominant producer (just at significantly reduced minutes -- but his production rate remained elite) when he was 44.

He would have absolutely rekt it in today's puck possession style. He was the puck possession OG.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Well, first of all, Ovechkin was obviously past his prime those years, second of all, Jagr himself had relatively poor seasons on the Capitals in the league with less parity.

I think Jagr is comfortably ahead of AO and Sid in this matter, and I don't see that ever changing. 4 120+ points seasons, 5 Art Rosses, 2nd most points ever is tremendously good.
AO/Sid is a matter of preference, Ovechkin has the higher peak, Crosby has been more consistent, both aged well. I love Ovi, so I picked him.

Ovechkin was out of his prime at 26 30, 31?

 

[daver]

At his peak, the combination of his his physical stature and puck skills would have made him completely untouchable with the puck.

Crosby is also great in puck possession, is a better skater, and has a higher hockey IQ. See I can also throw out subjective opinion to try to counter statistical realities.

Jagr would be no better in today's game. Throwing out hyperbolic narrative means nothing.

 

[Randyne]

Somebody who puts up 65, 69, 71, all in his prime is better than jagr?

I think it was a sabotage from stupid coaches, when they stopped experimenting on him he started to put 50G seasons as he always did, even at 34 y.o.

 

[TheProspector]

He was 8th in scoring as a f***ing 35 year old in 06/07. See I can cherrypick stats too.

What a stud.

 

[nowhereman]

That is flat out false. Crosby's defensive results are no better than Ovechkin's:

09/10 through 18/19 Regular Season
	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	481	379	548	470	493	240
EV TOI	10717	10251	12218	11276	12350	8438
Total EV GA/60	2.693	2.218	2.691	2.501	2.395	1.707
PPSHGA	53	24	51	31	31	16
PP TOI	2610	1933	3271	2198	2405	1343
Total	1.218	0.745	0.935	0.846	0.773	0.715
EV+PP GA	534	403	599	501	524	256
EV+PP TOI	13327	12184	15489	13474	14755	9781
EV+PPGA/60	2.404	1.985	2.320	2.231	2.131	1.570
PK TOI	295	1417	21	1156	1493	295
PK TOI/GP	27 seconds	1:57	2 seconds	1:35	1:57	41 seconds

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"PPSHGA" = power play short handed goals against.

And playoffs:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy. But use your eyes, your common sense."

These analytics don't say much of anything without context. Simply watching Ovechkin play is enough to realize that his defensive abilities to do not warrant mention alongside some of the greatest defensive forwards of all time and that, in fact, he's really only marginally competent in the neutral zone and especially in his own zone. Additionally, he doesn't have 1/10th of the defensive responsibility of players like Datysuk, Kopitar or even Crosby. These metrics also don't take into account linemates, competition or goaltending. In Crosby's case, there were plenty of series in the playoffs where Fleury wasn't able to stop a beachball and it cost his team even more Stanley Cup runs than they already have. Do your analytics consider that factor?

No one with even a cursory knowledge of hockey could watch Crosby and Ovechkin play and claim that Ovechkin is the superior defensive player. All the metrics in the world won't change that.

 

[wetcoast]

That is flat out false. Crosby's defensive results are no better than Ovechkin's:

09/10 through 18/19 Regular Season
	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	481	379	548	470	493	240
EV TOI	10717	10251	12218	11276	12350	8438
Total EV GA/60	2.693	2.218	2.691	2.501	2.395	1.707
PPSHGA	53	24	51	31	31	16
PP TOI	2610	1933	3271	2198	2405	1343
Total	1.218	0.745	0.935	0.846	0.773	0.715
EV+PP GA	534	403	599	501	524	256
EV+PP TOI	13327	12184	15489	13474	14755	9781
EV+PPGA/60	2.404	1.985	2.320	2.231	2.131	1.570
PK TOI	295	1417	21	1156	1493	295
PK TOI/GP	27 seconds	1:57	2 seconds	1:35	1:57	41 seconds

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"PPSHGA" = power play short handed goals against.

And playoffs:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This thread is about pure offensive nothing else so bringing in your flawed attempt weak as it is is also 100% irrelevant as well right?

 

[TheProspector]

Crosby is also great in puck possession, is a better skater, and has a higher hockey IQ. See I can also throw out subjective opinion to try to counter statistical realities.

Jagr would be no better in today's game. Throwing out hyperbolic narrative means nothing.

It seems to me like your assertions are lacking statistical basis, and nothing but subjective narrative.

 

[Kranix]

How many times does this illogical argument need to be dismantled?

What you are actually arguing is that Jagr stood out from the pack in the '90s because of his physical stature; something that would be less of a difference in today's game. It would be smaller players like Kariya and Sakic that, in theory, would thrive more in the current NHL.

What actually happened in the '90s was everyone saw their numbers go down; no type/size of player was immune. Jagr would be no more dominant in today's game than he was in the '90s.

Why?

 

[daver]

Why?

I don't believe it but it makes more sense that the less physical players would do better with less obstruction. Again, I don't believe it but if you want to play the DPE card, it makes sense that Jagr's numbers were inflated vs. his smaller peers.

The "DPE was harder" narrative makes zero sense. No player from the DPE would be any more dominant than they were in any other era.

 

[daver]

It seems to me like your assertions are lacking statistical basis, and nothing but subjective narrative.

Can you list any other DPE stars who were still in their primes after the DPE and were any better due to it being "easier"? All the best scorers from before 2005 must have dominated after right?

 

[Varan]

At their very best: I'd give the nod to Ovechkin because he was in the Art Ross race (usually top-2) while winning the goal-scoring race as well, can't say the same for a lot of the Art Ross winners/contenders in history. There is a very good argument that had he not missed those 13 games from 08-10, he would've won all 3 Rosses in a row.

But it's not about peaks, it's about career, so I'd give the nod to Crosby for consistency in his overall game

 

[daver]

At their very best: I'd give the nod to Ovechkin because he was in the Art Ross race (usually top-2) while winning the goal-scoring race as well, can't say the same for a lot of the Art Ross winners/contenders in history. There is a very good argument that had he not missed those 13 games from 08-10, he would've won all 3 Rosses in a row.

But it's not about peaks, it's about career, so I'd give the nod to Crosby for consistency in his overall game

There's a difference between being in the Art Ross race and winning the Art Ross by 20% over 2nd place.

 

[wetcoast]

And Ovechkin and Sid played in that era and failed to ever out produce Jags.

Crosby actually outproduced Jage in his second season when he won the Hart and Art Ross.

Sure Jagr was 34 but Crosby was 19.

Also over the first 3 years that Crosby and Ovechkin where in the NHL before Jagr left for the KHL both out prodeuced him but I'm not really sure what that has to do with the OP I'm just responding to your assertion which is false except perhaps in pure raw points but 05-06 was also a higher scoring year.

 

[Varan]

There's a difference between being in the Art Ross race and winning the Art Ross by 20% over 2nd place.

What about winning the Art Ross and Rocket both by a percentage of 10% over the next place player? That would have been OV had he played 82 in 2010.

What about winning the Ross by 5% and the Rocket by 20% over 2nd place? That was OV in 2008.

Winning both will always trump winning 1/2

As an aside, the history books doesn't care about winning percentages, all they count is either you won/lost. This is just an attempt to make up for the lack of Rosses

 

[wetcoast]

My point was Jagr outproduced Sid and Ovie in 05-06 at 33 when Sid and Ovie were in their prime. Is that incorrect?

Sure except for the part in bold Crosby was 18 and Ovi was 20, hardly what we usually refer to as any players prime is it?

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin doesn't have Lemieux or Malkin, so it will be The Great 8 when all said and done. For now it's Jagr>Ovi>Crosby, then Ovi>Jagr>Crosby

Yes you are right except when you aren't, both Crosby and to a greater extent Jagr still produced at or even higher levels without Mario and Malkin respectively.

Jagr in 98-99 had his peak season and Mario was nowhere in sight.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The point still stands. Jagr’s seasons in the late 90s eclipse any one of Sid or Ovie’s when adjusted.

Doubt someone worshipping the altar of Kuznetsov ever watched Jags in his prime. He was basically Ovechkin with Sid’s strength and ability in the corners.

Wtf do the 90s have to do with anything? Lol keep moving those goal posts.

 

[wetcoast]

Well, first of all, Ovechkin was obviously past his prime those years, second of all, Jagr himself had relatively poor seasons on the Capitals in the league with less parity.

Ovechkin was a mere 26 year old when he put up 65 points, how is that past his prime?

I think Jagr is comfortably ahead of AO and Sid in this matter, and I don't see that ever changing. 4 120+ points seasons, 5 Art Rosses, 2nd most points ever is tremendously good.
AO/Sid is a matter of preference, Ovechkin has the higher peak, Crosby has been more consistent, both aged well. I love Ovi, so I picked him.

I can see the case for him being ahead, as Outsider put it so well but crosby has produced at an elite rate for all of his 15 seasons.

Jagr only did so for 13 seasons, although he did peak higher to be sure.

The OP didn't mention it as he only posted regular season stats but I think both Crosby and Ovi have been better offensive playoff performers as well, although Jagr is probably closer to Ovi than Ovi is to Crosby.

But then again I didn't consciously use it in my ratings but it might have been in the back of my mind.