Jack Hughes vs Moritz Seider

[nbwingsfan]

He could, yes. Till it's done and in the books it's just supposition.

If you consider his career high to be 56pts, would you trade him for say, Timo Meier who’s career high is in the 70s?

Or can you project where a player will be?

Your first part, he's not even an elite nhl player. You are the one who needs to cope with that.

As to your second point, Hughes first two seasons he shouldn't have been in the NHL with those abysmal stats, if he was such an elite player, he wouldn't have performed like an average 3r/4th line tweener.

how is top 10 in scoring not elite? Hughes is very clearly that.

 

[ratbid]

Can the Rangers be a part of this but with all of their players being Adam Fox?

Seems totally reasonable. Call it a control group.

So we need 3 teams

Team 1: 22 Adam fox's + Jack Hughes
Team 2: 22 Adam fox's + Moritz Seider
Team 3: 23 Adam fox's

We're gonna need some nerds to help

 

[nbwingsfan]

He’s saying that if you’re going to try and discredit Hughes for playing in the NHL as a teenager, you should actually weight against Seider *more* for not even making the league at that point.

All you’re trying to do is find an angle to prop your player, but the one you picked is pretty lame.

Seider only didn’t “make” the league at 19 because he couldn’t after being loaned to play in the SHL during the pandemic

Big D like him take time to develop.

As far as I know, Jack Hughes also resides on Earth and dealt with the pandemic too.

You should probably learn about the rules if you’re going to go ahead and spew this nonsense.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Seider only didn’t “make” the league at 19 because he couldn’t after being loaned to play in the SHL during the pandemic

Big D like him take time to develop.


You should probably learn about the rules if you’re going to go ahead and spew this nonsense.

"After"...

The idea that it was a more "stable" choice for the SHL than the NHL is comical. There was always going to be an NHL season. Detroit sucks, the only thing they're competing for is the development of their prospects, especially so at that time. If they thought Seider could compete at that level he would have, this is all a healthy dose of cope from you guys.

 

[nbwingsfan]

"After"...

The idea that it was a more "stable" choice for the SHL than the NHL is comical. There was always going to be an NHL season. Detroit sucks, the only thing they're competing for is the development of their prospects, especially so at that time. If they thought Seider could compete at that level he would have, this is all a healthy dose of cope from you guys.

We literally had no idea if there was going to be an NHL season or what it would look like.

He went sent to the SHL because we knew for sure that he could play his games, and the Wings weren’t trying to contend so there was no point in taking a risk otherwise.

If you truly think a guy who was SHL D of the year at 19, and then stepped in as a 50pt #1D at 20 couldn’t have succeeded in the NHL at 19 then that’s up to you, but it’s not based in reality.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

We literally had no idea if there was going to be an NHL season or what it would look like.

He went sent to the SHL because we knew for sure that he could play his games, and the Wings weren’t trying to contend so there was no point in taking a risk otherwise.

If you truly think a guy who was SHL D of the year at 19, and then stepped in as a 50pt #1D at 20 couldn’t have succeeded in the NHL at 19 then that’s up to you, but it’s not based in reality.

I think Detroit seemed to think so. Hard to say they were wrong, though we'll have to see how Seider progresses after this year. Hasn't gotten back to that form.

It's interesting that seemingly no other teams seemed this "spooked" about an NHL season. Tim Stutzle was drafted out of the DEL and played immediately in the '20-'21 season. Actually, Ville Heinola was loaned to a Liiga team expressly with an NHL recall. Tobias Bjornfot did the same with LAK.

 

[Xirik]

Can Detroit fans acknowledge that the dunking and diminishing Hughes in the earlier part of the thread is just as bad as dunking on Seider right now?

Hopefully after that the thread can die

 

[Killing Joke]

You must read different threads than I do, I rarely see any Devil fan saying he's in that realm of players, it's usually 1 guy makes the poll everyone else cries about Hughes being too small, too easy to push off the puck, a defensive liability, a muffin of a shot or can't win face-offs.

Then Devil fans defending these allegations, but not saying he's better than McDavid or Matthews.

You seem like you're salty your player is losing this poll or that it was bumped by a Devil fan, who was promptly told it was dumb to bump it by...... You guessed it Devil fans!

At the moment he is actually playing better 5 on 5 than McDavid. I’ll absolutely say that with my chest.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's interesting that seemingly no other teams seemed this "spooked" about an NHL season. Tim Stutzle was drafted out of the DEL and played immediately in the '20-'21 season. Actually, Ville Heinola was loaned to a Liiga team expressly with an NHL recall. Tobias Bjornfot did the same with LAK.

Please just admit you have no idea what you're talking about. Most teams could rely on exisiting solutions. Heinola and Björnfot were loaned back to their former teams. Just like Seider and Stützle were going to be.

But sure. Björnfot (3 points in 15 SHL games, 6 points in 33 NHL games) was good enough to play in the NHL but Seider (most dominant player outside out the NHL) was not..

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Please just admit you have no idea what you're talking about. Most teams could rely on exisiting solutions. Heinola and Björnfot were *loaned* back to their former teams. Just like Seider and Stützle were going to be.

But sure. Björnfot (3 points in 15 SHL games, 6 points in 33 NHL games) was good enough to play in the NHL but Seider (most dominant player outside out the NHL) was not..

Stutzle playing in the NHL was an existing solution? No, was drafted out of the DEL like Seider was and just played in the league. The same way Seider could have.

And beautiful attempt to shift the goalposts. The other poster's contention was that Seider was good enough for the NHL, but was loaned to the SHL because Detroit wasn't sure the NHL would play and couldn't come back once it did by rule. Quite clearly other teams had no such issues. Either they just played in the NHL because they could, or they were loaned to clubs overseas with recall options.

 

[TBF1972]

Then put your fanbase in check for the sheer level of stupid posts they make or accept that you're seen as one fan base, I don't care enough about Devil fans to tell you a single posts name, so you're all the same to me.

there were red wings fans, who told us last season, that seider is top10 d in the nhl. i hope you put them in check in the future.

and if not, at least admit, that he is underperforming for such a designation.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Stutzle playing in the NHL was an existing solution? No, was drafted out of the DEL like Seider was and just played in the league. The same way Seider could have.

And beautiful attempt to shift the goalposts. The other poster's contention was that Seider was good enough for the NHL, but was loaned to the SHL because Detroit wasn't sure the NHL would play and couldn't come back once it did by rule. Quite clearly other teams had no such issues. Either they just played in the NHL because they could, or they were loaned to clubs overseas with recall options.

Seider and Stützle were both going to play in Mannheim. When that opportunity was lost, they needed a find a new place for Seider. Yes, they were okay with giving him a good opportunity and good development at the cost of not being able to bring him back at the NHL start. Some other teams were not. But Heinola and Björnfot only prove that the actual ability of the prospects was not the determining factor there.

 

[TBF1972]

Seems totally reasonable. Call it a control group.

So we need 3 teams

Team 1: 22 Adam fox's + Jack Hughes
Team 2: 22 Adam fox's + Moritz Seider
Team 3: 23 Adam fox's

We're gonna need some nerds to help

can we have a second control group in real live and clone adam fox 22 times? so we can prove that the computer model accurately relates with real live.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Seider and Stützle were both going to play in Mannheim. When that opportunity was lost, they needed a find a new place for Seider. Yes, they were okay with giving him a good opportunity and good development at the cost of not being able to bring him back at the NHL start. Some other teams were not. But Heinola and Björnfot only prove that the actual ability of the prospects was not the determining factor there.

Listen, not really interested in going back and forth on this much longer, I'm just pushing back on this idea that Detroit's hand was forced by the pandemic. The NHL announced their return to play framework in July and another poster noted he was loaned to the SHL in October. There was no ambiguity on the NHL returning to play that season or even the general timeframe for it to start. If they thought the place to develop Seider was the NHL, like more than a few other players, that's where he would have played.

 

[norrisnick]

Listen, not really interested in going back and forth on this much longer, I'm just pushing back on this idea that Detroit's hand was forced by the pandemic. The NHL announced their return to play framework in July and another poster noted he was loaned to the SHL in October. There was no ambiguity on the NHL returning to play that season or even the general timeframe for it to start. If they thought the place to develop Seider was the NHL, like more than a few other players, that's where he would have played.

There was no ambiguity on the whens and hows of the league resuming action in the fall of 2020? The fall of 2020 was nothing BUT ambiguity. For all things let alone hockey.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

There was no ambiguity on the whens and hows of the league resuming action in the fall of 2020? The fall of 2020 was nothing BUT ambiguity. For all things let alone hockey.

Not in terms of whether the league would return to play or not at all (as was being intimated earlier), or the general structure of what that would look like, no.

 

[norrisnick]

Not in terms of whether the league would return to play or not at all (as was being intimated earlier), or the general structure of what that would look like, no.

And the decision was made that having a 19yo play hockey during the fall outweighed playing with his dick for months on end until a potential future NHL start date.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

At the moment he is actually playing better 5 on 5 than McDavid. I’ll absolutely say that with my chest.

Ya he's playing better 5 on 5 but he's not even close to the better player in any way.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

And the decision was made that having a 19yo play hockey during the fall outweighed playing with his dick for months on end until a potential future NHL start date.

There was nothing "potential" about it. That was the point I just made.

The idea that they thought he was good enough for the NHL but opted against it because of a couple weeks of game time is funny to me. And again, no other team made this same calculation that playing over an 8-week period in the Fall outweighed playing in the league that matched the player's developmental level. Or better yet, that they couldn't do both.

The list of prospects that are capable of playing in the NHL, don't have their path blocked on the big club, and are on a bad team not competing for the playoffs, that *don't* play that prospect in the NHL and instead send him to league they presumably think the player is already too good for must be minuscule. But I guess there's a first for everything.

I think we've kind of exhausted this topic at this point, so I'll move on.

 

[ratbid]

can we have a second control group in real live and clone adam fox 22 times? so we can prove that the computer model accurately relates with real live.

Yes for sure, we want this to be as realistic as possible

 

[norrisnick]

There was nothing "potential" about it. That was the point I just made.

The idea that they thought he was good enough for the NHL but opted against it because of a couple weeks of game time is funny to me. And again, no other team made this same calculation that playing over an 8-week period in the Fall outweighed playing in the league that matched the player's developmental level. Or better yet, that they couldn't do both.

The list of prospects that are capable of playing in the NHL, don't have their path blocked on the big club, and are on a bad team not competing for the playoffs, that *don't* play that prospect in the NHL and instead send him to league they presumably think the player is already too good for must be minuscule. But I guess there's a first for everything.

I think we've kind of exhausted this topic at this point, so I'll move on.

There was no guarantee that had the league started in the winter it wasn't just going to get shut down again. That's the thing here. That's the uncertainty of the fall/winter of 2020. Sweden was getting started and Sweden had some of the least restrictive pandemic measures in the world. The likelihood of that season being finished outweighed an NHL season that wasn't going to start for months in a future that was anything but certain in a covid world.

And yes, it was a truly unique situation. One in which putting a 19yo defenseman on a competitive team in a competitive league that was actually playing was seen as a better option than waiting a few months to maybe play said 19yo defenseman on a team that just finished dead last the season before.

 

[dekelikekocur]

there were red wings fans, who told us last season, that seider is top10 d in the nhl. i hope you put them in check in the future.

and if not, at least admit, that he is underperforming for such a designation.

Yes, there were a few, but claiming it's all one person posting this nonstop drivel regarding Hughes isn't the same because while on our end we've had a few, you all bandwagon every post defending his besmirched honor.

Is Hughes a good player? So far he's showing promise, is he elite? Not until he can do it regularly and continuously without excuses. Will he be there in a couple years? Maybe, but that depends on him continuing to get better. So far all I've heard/seen from ya all is "He was great but didn't get results", "He's top 10 now" (He isn't, he's outside the bubble and over a short sample size), what he isn't is a comparable to McDavid or any of the other actual elites in the game that have done it year in year out. He's a shiny new stone that hasn't ever played a full 82 game season. Anointing him as a comparable to the top end players is premature.

Know what the tell tale signs of an overhyped player are? When people try to split seasons, excuse lack of results, and try to use whataboutisms to get around the hard simple question of, does he get the results regularly.

You and your fellow fans posting in this thread have done all of the above to dodge the fact that he doesn't have the track record yet. At no point have I ever said he doesn't have the potential, I've repeatedly said he isn't there yet and to stop with all the bullshit.

 

[Favin]

Hughes is most certainly not in the Hart trophy conversation

Hughes is leading the NHL in goal-above-replacement at 17.5 through 41 games. If he continues that pace, it will be the best single-season, in terms of GAR, since Pavel Datsyuk in 2008-09 (Datsyuk had 97 points and won Selke that year).

Hughes is absolutely in Hart trophy conversation.

 

[Favin]

So he went PPG last year in a subset of games.

Something like 50 players were PPG last year and almost all with more games played by a fairly decent margin.

In the past few days we've seen bs posts about Hughes vs McDavid, Hughes vs Matthews and so on. He isn't even in the fricking realm of those conversations. He's finally starting to figure out the NHL and ya all seem to think he's achieved godhood when he's still pretty much just another underperforming overhyped number 1 draft pick.

Hughes rank, NHL

GAR: 1st
WAR: 1st
xGAR: 2nd (McDavid)
xWAR: 2nd (McDavid)
Even Strength GAR: 2nd (Tkachuk)
Even Strength xGAR: 5th (McDavid, Robertson, Horvat, Tkachuk)

Now you know

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Hughes is leading the NHL in goal-above-replacement at 17.5 through 41 games. If he continues that pace, it will be the best single-season, in terms of GAR, since Pavel Datsyuk in 2008-09 (Datsyuk had 97 points and won Selke that year).

Hughes is absolutely in Hart trophy conversation.

Nobody cares