It's Not Working

[hockeyball]

wow, that's a lot of time wasted writing something unrealistic and irrelevant. you'll never get that time back ...

Doesn't that pretty much apply to every post on this board? I mean it's not like we are curing cancer here, or even have any actual impact on the team at all. All of this discussion is unrealistic and irrelevant.

I'm telling you what I would do, sunk cost is a terrible way to do business. Cut your losses, do the best thing for the team right now without regard to past mistakes. Dump the failing management, move the players near retirement for future, rebuild as much as you can. Obviously not having our 1st is a set back, but spending MORE assets to improve the team at this point is counter productive. At the very least you just leave the team as is, play out the season, then do all of this in the off-season, but all you are really accomplishing there is delaying things 6 months.

 

[Alwalys]

Doesn't that pretty much apply to every post on this board?

Not if you post as a fan. Sports is entertainment, and fan communities are a form of social support. If you post positive things that help you enjoy the team regardless of the situation, you are not wasting your time.

However constantly posting negative things, especially ones that amount to wild fantasy, is in fact a waste of time because it reduces your entertainment value along with accomplishing nothing. As you point out you are not GM and nothing you write has any effect on the team.

 

[AgentCooper]

Apparently I'm the only one who's impressed that this team holds a playoff spot right now after playing 20+ games without one of our most valuable players. Granted, we're in a weak division, but I would still be pretty shocked if we missed the playoffs. Tanking, cutting losses, whatever you want to call it, just isn't an option. I think that's been pretty well demonstrated by...literally everyone in the organization. I'll hit the panic button if we're out of a playoff spot in February, but for now I think this team is fine.

 

[Alwalys]

Apparently I'm the only one who's impressed that this team holds a playoff spot right now after playing 20+ games without one of our most valuable players. Granted, we're in a weak division, but I would still be pretty shocked if we missed the playoffs. Tanking, cutting losses, whatever you want to call it, just isn't an option. I think that's been pretty well demonstrated by...literally everyone in the organization. I'll hit the panic button if we're out of a playoff spot in February, but for now I think this team is fine.

I won't say I'm impressed because I think the team can play better with the personnel it does have. But I do agree that the team is in not that bad of a position and I do not expect it to miss the playoffs again.

 

[AgentCooper]

I won't say I'm impressed because I think the team can play better with the personnel it does have. But I do agree that the team is in not that bad of a position and I do not expect it to miss the playoffs again.

Certainly, I should clarify that I am not entirely impressed with their play. But if you had said to me on the day Logan got injured that when he returns in December the team would be 14-13 and 3rd in the division, I'd be very pleased.

 

[hockeyball]

Not if you post as a fan. Sports is entertainment, and fan communities are a form of social support. If you post positive things that help you enjoy the team regardless of the situation, you are not wasting your time.

However constantly posting negative things, especially ones that amount to wild fantasy, is in fact a waste of time because it reduces your entertainment value along with accomplishing nothing. As you point out you are not GM and nothing you write has any effect on the team.

I'm sorry... who the hell are you to tell me how to enjoy something? Do you know for a fact that I do not get enjoyment out of posting stuff? Even if you consider it negative? Talk about presumptuous. Just because I do not enjoy things the exact same way you do does not mean I do not enjoy it as much, or even more, than you. Just because I believe the team needs to make a dramatic course correction doesn't make it negative, or make everything I post negative.

If you dont like my proposal fine, but keep your personal comments to your self, talk about a waste of time.

 

[rangerssharks414]

4) Hire a new coach and staff. I'm not a huge fan of the veteran options available right now, of that group I'd at least take a look at Boucher and Bylsma, but none of the others. Mostly I'd look for another Todd McLellan type situation with an up and coming rookie coach with talent.

He is Buffalo's coach.

 

[hockeyball]

He is Buffalo's coach.

oops, I forgot they hired him. Still, like I said, I'm not really a fan anyway.

 

[Alwalys]

I'm sorry... who the hell are you to tell me how to enjoy something? Do you know for a fact that I do not get enjoyment out of posting stuff? Even if you consider it negative? Talk about presumptuous. Just because I do not enjoy things the exact same way you do does not mean I do not enjoy it as much, or even more, than you. Just because I believe the team needs to make a dramatic course correction doesn't make it negative, or make everything I post negative.

Okay since you can't read between the lines, you're making things unenjoyable for others. I mean talk about pretentious ... you basically said "blwo it up" in 10,000 words as if you were someone important.

If you dont like my proposal fine, but keep your personal comments to your self, talk about a waste of time.

No. And don't kid yourself that that was any kind of a proposal. You're a fan (at best), not someone who makes an actual difference.

 

[Sysreq]

Maybe if we BELIEVE hard enough, SJ Sharkie will bless us with a Christmas miracle and we'll actually win a game at home.

 

[hockeyball]

Okay since you can't read between the lines, you're making things unenjoyable for others. I mean talk about pretentious ... you basically said "blwo it up" in 10,000 words as if you were someone important.



No. And don't kid yourself that that was any kind of a proposal. You're a fan (at best), not someone who makes an actual difference.

Ok so wait, if I don't happen to agree with your point of view then how many characters am I limited to? Did I miss the rule where this forum is limited ONLY to positive opinions and/or opinions that align with Phu's?

In what world is creating a detailed and well explained plan on how to accomplish something worse than a "blow it up" post with no explanation? You do realize how obtuse that sounds I hope.

If you don't like me, more power to you, but keep it to yourself. If you are going to respond to my posts, respond to my posts, not your opinions on me.

 

[Alwalys]

In what world is creating a detailed and well explained plan on how to accomplish something worse than a "blow it up" post with no explanation? You do realize how obtuse that sounds I hope.

In a world where the person wasting their time posting it has zero ability to actually effect anything remotely related to it. You're wasting your and everyone else's time with it.

 

[OrrNumber4]

In a world where the person wasting their time posting it has zero ability to actually effect anything remotely related to it. You're wasting your and everyone else's time with it.

And you aren't wasting your time posting about positive things?

What if he enjoys the team by being able to criticize and discuss them in an analytical way, instead of cheerleading them?

 

[WTFetus]

In a world where the person wasting their time posting it has zero ability to actually effect anything remotely related to it. You're wasting your and everyone else's time with it.

Getting a bit OT here but...

Look, I'm the last person to defend hockeyball since I also think the vast majority of his proposals are ridiculous and unrealistic, but nothing we say here has an effect on anything. This board isn't just a place to post "Woo, Sharks win" or "Pavelski!!!". We can make proposals hence why there is a dedicated forum for them. Posters do have the right to be negative too. There is no rule that states we have to be happy-go-lucky all the time. Now if there are posters who only posts negative things, that's a different story. But that's not the case here.

You don't like his post, fine. But don't make it out like he's wasting his time because he has no control over the team. None of us do. One can very well say you're wasting your time defending the team; it's not like you work for them or Hasso is going to give you an award for it. Yes, hb wasted his time by writing a tome of unrealism, but that's a different argument.

 

[Alwalys]

And you aren't wasting your time posting about positive things?

No, as a fan and supporter of the team, it is my role to enjoy and appreciate the team. If I stopped enjoying and appreciating them, I would move on. It can be difficult in tough times, but that's what we have these social groups for.

What if he enjoys the team by being able to criticize and discuss them in an analytical way, instead of cheerleading them?

There's a difference between analysis and unrealistic pipe dreams. When something has zero basis in reality, it is effectively just negative downing of a team and has no place in a fan forum. If you want to get all negative about the team, there are league or opponent forums that are more appropriate.

It is quite common for people to enjoy being negative and upsetting others, but that should not be done in a fan forum.

 

[hohosaregood]

I just stop reading.

 

[OrrNumber4]

No, as a fan and supporter of the team, it is my role to enjoy and appreciate the team.

Think about how inane and insane this approach is when you replace "team" with something else, like nation or religion.

If you are true fan of the team, then you are able to realize its flaws, and are able to criticize those flaws.

If I stopped enjoying and appreciating them, I would move on.

1) Posting trade proposals or heavily criticizing team means you do not enjoy them or appreciate them?

2) Fantastic that you would move on. Others have other ways of coping.

There's a difference between analysis and unrealistic pipe dreams. When something has zero basis in reality, it is effectively just negative downing of a team and has no place in a fan forum.

I should bring up the point that if someone suggested the Sharks acquire Thornton for Primeau, Stuart, and Sturm in 2006, it would have had the same "zero basis in reality".

Hell, looking at DW's record, signing Martin and Ward had "zero basis in reality".

[MOD]

 

[stator]

I think the bigger issue is that PDB's system just doesn't work at the NHL level.

This is where I am at as well. DeBoer was essentially a lateral trade at best, not much different than TMac. In fact, I will say that TMac has the better deal out of the pair... up and coming youth, loaded with 1st picks, and an area that sell outs no matter what place their team is in.

DeBoer has older, fading top players and a much tougher market for ticket sales. Therefore, he has much less room for mistakes.

So going back to the start of the season, I asked about predictions and what would be the keys. Mine were:

Prediction - first round then exit, or best a 2nd round exit.

Keys:

1. DeBoer - current judgement failing at this point, and not meeting expectations
2. Martin Jones - meeting expectations, but could be better
3. Marleau - below expectations largely due to his lack-luster production coupled with poor +/-.


So, only one out of the three keys I stated should suggest the Sharks not be in a playoff position, but they are. Saving grace here is the west is playing poorly which is inflating the Sharks in the standings. However, it looks like that is closing.

Clouds are brewing on DW's horizon, and DeBoer's as well. If the Sharks don't make the playoffs, please Hasso, fire DW first as I suggested. Then hire a GM and turn over the rest of the firing.

 

[Alwalys]

It would be interesting to see if another miss would cost DW his job. In some ways it's not exactly fair to make that change based on an injury-plagued season with a new coach and rookie starting G. But it depends on how much DW had to do with the debacle last season, if it was his idea then he probably should be out. If Hasso had a big hand in the decision, it is probably less likely DW gets scapegoated, but the leash will likely be short and DW would be on the hot seat all next season, with Thornton and Marleau's contracts ending.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This is where I am at as well. DeBoer was essentially a lateral trade at best, not much different than TMac. In fact, I will say that TMac has the better deal out of the pair... up and coming youth, loaded with 1st picks, and an area that sell outs no matter what place their team is in.

DeBoer has older, fading top players and a much tougher market for ticket sales. Therefore, he has much less room for mistakes.

So going back to the start of the season, I asked about predictions and what would be the keys. Mine were:

Prediction - first round then exit, or best a 2nd round exit.

Keys:

1. DeBoer - current judgement failing at this point, and not meeting expectations
2. Martin Jones - meeting expectations, but could be better
3. Marleau - below expectations largely due to his lack-luster production coupled with poor +/-.


So, only one out of the three keys I stated should suggest the Sharks not be in a playoff position, but they are. Saving grace here is the west is playing poorly which is inflating the Sharks in the standings. However, it looks like that is closing.

Clouds are brewing on DW's horizon, and DeBoer's as well. If the Sharks don't make the playoffs, please Hasso, fire DW first as I suggested. Then hire a GM and turn over the rest of the firing.

Your expectations of Marleau are not realistic and not founded in anything remotely close to reality. If anyone is playing below expectations at this point, it's Thornton.

 

[Hangemhigh]

wow, that's a lot of time wasted writing something unrealistic and irrelevant. you'll never get that time back ...

He might get hired by Bleacher Report.

 

[hockeyball]

Getting a bit OT here but...

Look, I'm the last person to defend hockeyball since I also think the vast majority of his proposals are ridiculous and unrealistic, but nothing we say here has an effect on anything. This board isn't just a place to post "Woo, Sharks win" or "Pavelski!!!". We can make proposals hence why there is a dedicated forum for them. Posters do have the right to be negative too. There is no rule that states we have to be happy-go-lucky all the time. Now if there are posters who only posts negative things, that's a different story. But that's not the case here.

You don't like his post, fine. But don't make it out like he's wasting his time because he has no control over the team. None of us do. One can very well say you're wasting your time defending the team; it's not like you work for them or Hasso is going to give you an award for it. Yes, hb wasted his time by writing a tome of unrealism, but that's a different argument.

Wait, do you actually think I think that's going to happen? I'm not a moron, I have no illusions, in the slightest, that most of that will happen.

It's a thought experiment. I'm brain storming / spit balling. I say plenty of positive things about this team. I'm a big support of Jones obviously, of Burns, of Hertl, Meier and even Mueller. I think there is a lot of individual pieces on this team that are fantastic. I just have finally come to the conclusion that Wilson needs to go. The rest of that stuff is just cleaning house once he's gone.

You guys seriously all need to stop looking for reasons to attack people and be angry. Just because we have an opinion you don't like doesn't make it negative or stupid. If you think this team is cup calibre, I think your pretty disillusion honestly, but that's totally your right and I wouldn't tell anyone not to have an opinion. If you don't think it's cup calibre, and you don't agree with anything I said, I seriously wonder what you actually think is going to happen... Are you just re-signed to mediocrity? To me, thats WAY more negative.

 

[OrrNumber4]

If you think this team is cup calibre, I think your pretty disillusion honestly, but that's totally your right and I wouldn't tell anyone not to have an opinion. If you don't think it's cup calibre, and you don't agree with anything I said, I seriously wonder what you actually think is going to happen... Are you just re-signed to mediocrity? To me, thats WAY more negative.

Just to clarify (and this is, of course, not at all directed at hockeyball)

We all have a right to our opinion. Bullying people into censuring their speech (based on the content), is the wrong way to go about things. If you don't like it, you leave.

Now, on your actual topic...I think one can be somewhere in between. I don't think that the Sharks are cup calibre, but DW might think so, and that thought is going to influence how he handles the team. Even if he doesn't think so, he might not have the option (or even want to) blow it up.

So while I can agree with your action plan (if not the specifics, at least the general idea), but I'd say it is highly unlikely that DW does something like that, at least at this point. You have to think that 100% of his effort is going to be committed to making the playoffs and not gifting the Bruins a lottery pick.

Also, you have to think that logically, if DW jettisons all these players, he's going to have to be fired. Restarting is a reflection on his job over the past 10+ years; if you want to be an accountable organization, you have to fire the GM. And that is the JT/Marleau/DW conundrum....removing one basically means you should remove all of them.

 

[hohosaregood]

Anybody good at analyzing systems cuz if anybody's got good structured reasons for why it's going so poorly, I'd like to hear about it.

 

[hockeyball]

Just to clarify (and this is, of course, not at all directed at hockeyball)

We all have a right to our opinion. Bullying people into censuring their speech (based on the content), is the wrong way to go about things. If you don't like it, you leave.

Now, on your actual topic...I think one can be somewhere in between. I don't think that the Sharks are cup calibre, but DW might think so, and that thought is going to influence how he handles the team. Even if he doesn't think so, he might not have the option (or even want to) blow it up.

So while I can agree with your action plan (if not the specifics, at least the general idea), but I'd say it is highly unlikely that DW does something like that, at least at this point. You have to think that 100% of his effort is going to be committed to making the playoffs and not gifting the Bruins a lottery pick.

Also, you have to think that logically, if DW jettisons all these players, he's going to have to be fired. Restarting is a reflection on his job over the past 10+ years; if you want to be an accountable organization, you have to fire the GM. And that is the JT/Marleau/DW conundrum...removing one basically means you should remove all of them.

.

Which is exactly what I was getting at. Once you remove Wilson you pretty much have to roll through the rest. That's the point of what I was saying. Also against the prevailing wisdom, which I understand totally but disagree with, that we have to do whatever it takes to make the playoffs. That's sunk cost, it's over, you can't fix it now, you have to do what is best for the team and move on. I don't see spending even more assets at this point as what is best for the team. What's best for the team is to clean house and get started on a new program as soon as possible. If you wait six months, it's six more months you are delaying things. Doing this stuff in the off-season isn't going to get our 1st back either. It's gone, forget about it.