It's Not The Water Or Culture, It's Your Forward Depth, Dummy.

[Little Fury]

yes theyre excellent at their jobs and it's because they instill the right culture into the organization and team. both trotz and lam have certain way of doing things, handling player, expecting certain things from them, getting proper habits etc etc etc.... CULTURE.

Yeah they have specific skillsets that set the tone. But that just proves that culture is a byproduct of talent in personnel.

 

[Soundwave]

Before winning a Cup last year, lets also remember Trotz was known as a career loser before that. Now he's Mr. Genius with a magic formula, just kinda funny how narratives can shift like that.

 

[Little Fury]

Bad GMs bring up "culture" a lot because it's an intangiable cop-out type of thing they point to.

Pierre Dorion of the Senators was babbling on about culture is his idiotic rant yesterday that many people are lampooning.

Good organizations chase talented people who get results and build a culture that way.

Dum-dums like Edmonton chase culture and forget about the talented people part.

 

[Soundwave]

Weren't Messier and Iginla supposed to be the poster-boys for "Great Guys" "Lockerroom Warriors"? They drip culture just off their nut sack sweat? That's the legend right?

Funny that they were awful in Vancouver and Colorado. Could it be that their culture/experience/etc. didn't mean shit the moment they couldn't play up to the talent level they had when younger?

Funny how that works, huh? It's almost as if culture and even experience/know how is meaningless in pro sports when you cannot back it up with the actual ability.

 

[BudBundy]

of course, but you ALSO have to right the culture at the same time. you bring in talent to an iffy culture and you risk them underperforming and unhappy and that will lead to massive issues and spiral out of control and people will be left wondering, what the f*** is wrong... we brought in talent but somehow we still suck and the team isn't gelling.

I guess our fundamental difference is that I think good culture gets you that last 10% to push you over the top, but without enough talent in key positions you just wander in the desert assigning blame in the wrong places.

I think players on teams that win a little bit on talent can develop good culture because they get to enjoy the rewards that come with extra sacrifice. It’s also easy to all get along in the locker room when you arent under intense pressure from constant losing.

How do you develop a good culture when every player knows damn well they dont have the horses? i.e. Why bash your skull against rocks when you’ll lose anyway? That leads to “things getting ugly” in the room.

I think a major problem with the Oilers management is that they don’t recognize what talent looks like and the team underperforms from poor drafting and trading. They incorrectly assume the players they like are just fine, therefore it’s a culture issue “something in the water” and they start a witch-hunt for anybody that doesnt always toe the company line. I think Hall fell victim to that kind of immature and blind thinking. Given how much you vilify Hall at every turn, I think you are a victim of the same mentality.

 

[Soundwave]

I guess our fundamental difference is that I think good culture gets you that last 10% to push you over the top, but without enough talent in key positions you just wander in the desert assigning blame in the wrong places.

I think players on teams that win a little bit on talent can develop good culture because they get to enjoy the rewards that come with extra sacrifice. It’s also easy to all get along in the locker room when you arent under intense pressure from constant losing.

How do you develop a good culture when every player knows damn well they dont have the horses? i.e. Why bash your skull against rocks when you’ll lose anyway? That leads to “things getting ugly” in the room.

I think a major problem with the Oilers management is that they don’t recognize what talent looks like and the team underperforms from poor drafting and trading. They incorrectly assume the players they like are just fine, therefore it’s a culture issue “something in the water” and they start a witch-hunt for anybody that doesnt always toe the company line. I think Hall fell victim to that kind of immature and blind thinking. Given how much you vilify Hall at every turn, I think you are a victim of the same mentality.

Exactly it's a minority part of the entire puzzle and it's largely just coming from wins ... which comes from having good talent in the first place.

Anyone is prone to getting discouraged if you keep on doing something and get very little good results. That's human nature, not a human failing or "you're a bad person because you got frustrated after losing for 4 years!!!! Cancer personality!!!".

Gimme a break.

If culture is the be-all, end-all how did it go for Mark Messier, probably the greatest "culture player" ever in Vancouver when he didn't have actual talent left to bring it on the ice like he used to? Combined with a poor/young/raw roster ... it went pretty bad as I recall. Just shows you can have all the culture there you want, it doesn't translate if the ability is not there on the ice.

 

[BudBundy]

Before winning a Cup last year, lets also remember Trotz was known as a career loser before that. Now he's Mr. Genius with a magic formula, just kinda funny how narratives can shift like that.

I dont know of anybody knowledgeable that ever thought of Trotz being a career loser. He was well respected for wringing every ounce of performance out of pretty average rosters. Nobody is surprised he got that extra juice out of a very talented Caps team.

 

[Soundwave]

I dont know of anybody knowledgeable that ever thought of Trotz being a career loser. He was well respected for wringing every ounce of performance out of pretty average rosters. Nobody is surprised he got that extra juice out of a very talented Caps team.

Everyone wants to pat the Caps on the back now and rightfully so, but a year ago they were still the "lol, never gonna win the big prize, don't know how to get it done, will collapse against Pittsburgh again just you watch" squad.

 

[BudBundy]

Everyone wants to pat the Caps on the back now and rightfully so, but a year ago they were still the "lol, never gonna win the big prize, don't know how to get it done, will collapse against Pittsburgh again just you watch" squad.

True enough. The Sharks are in the same boat until they win.

 

[Mr Sakich]

if you look at most teams who are deemed to have great culture in the room and the org, chances re they have great goaltender.

teams with problems in the room usually have a poor goalie

 

[Panthera]

Funny how this mysterious culture always appears in hindsight. Every team that is ever successful apparently has it, but it doesn't exist anywhere until the moment a winning record does, when suddenly it's been there ever since the signing of <guy you like>. Management and media have talked about everyone the Oilers have brought in as these good character/culture guys, hell, the big knock on Chiarelli was that he overvalued/overpaid his "culture" guys relative to how much he liked his "talent" guys. Steady stream of culture brought in, but it all magically becomes bad culture when it turns out that a guy sitting in his office saying nice things doesn't cause Milan Lucic to suddenly skate faster or be able to handle a pass.

The history of the NHL is full of dirty players, guys with drinking problems, guys with drug problems, guys who were unpleasant to deal with, guys who beat their wives, guys who slacked off half the season, guys who straight up didn't care to try to play defense, and what they all have in common is that the ones who won stuff get called great character guys. Guys like Guy Lafleur, Paul Coffey, Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky largely didn't care much when the opponents had the puck, which sounds like the exact kind of culture you *don't* want to perpetuate...but they all won so it must be a great idea to approach the game that way. Think about that next time someone accuses McDavid or Draisaitl of cheating for offense, they're just trying to emulate the 80s Oilers culture! Encourage them to never play defense, it builds character!

Or maybe culture is just a label people apply after the fact to try to convince themselves that winning and losing is defined solely by how good of a person you are because it sounds nicer than acknowledging that some guys just flat out don't have the talent to be good at the NHL level.

I mean, we could always trade McDavid. Team's been bad with him, and since good culture can never exist on a bad team, he's obviously a bad character guy. Ditch him and get Hendricks back, that ought to help.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Everyone wants to pat the Caps on the back now and rightfully so, but a year ago they were still the "lol, never gonna win the big prize, don't know how to get it done, will collapse against Pittsburgh again just you watch" squad.

speaking of the Caps, they finally won the Cup with perhaps their "least talented" team..Marcus Johansson was traded, Justin Williams left, Schmidt went to Vegas and Shattenkirk left for NYR

they were replaced with "less talented" players like Chiasson, Smith-Pelly, Kempny and Djoos

perhaps they found the right mix?

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

speaking of the Caps, they finally won the Cup with perhaps their "least talented" team..Marcus Johansson was traded, Justin Williams left, Schmidt went to Vegas and Shattenkirk left for NYR

they were replaced with "less talented" players like Chiasson, Smith-Pelly, Kempny and Djoos

perhaps they found the right mix?

Tom Wilson also just decided to become a point getting animal out of no where.

 

[MessierII]

How so?

Duchene is distinctly better than any player Colorado brought up through their system. Coaches and GM’s aren’t roster changes.

 

[Little Fury]

Duchene is distinctly better than any player Colorado brought up through their system.

Your argument was that they didn't change the roster. They did.

Coaches and GM’s aren’t roster changes.

And you'll note I've been talking about on- and off-ice personnel.

 

[Little Fury]

speaking of the Caps, they finally won the Cup with perhaps their "least talented" team..Marcus Johansson was traded, Justin Williams left, Schmidt went to Vegas and Shattenkirk left for NYR

they were replaced with "less talented" players like Chiasson, Smith-Pelly, Kempny and Djoos

perhaps they found the right mix?

Or the playoffs are a crapshoot where luck and randomness play an outsize role in driving results.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Or the playoffs are a crapshoot where luck and randomness play an outsize role in driving results.

so basically "anything can happen as long as you make the playoffs"?

 

[Little Fury]

so basically "anything can happen as long as you make the playoffs"?

*provided you have a base of elite talent

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Alex Chiasson: No goals in 20 games
Zack Kassian No goals in 8 games
Milan Lucic No goals in 15 games
Jujhar Khaira: No goals in 10 games (and injured)
Tobias Reider: No goals in 49 games
Ty Rattie: No goals in 8 games
Jesse Puljujarvi: No goals in 15 games (and injured)
Kyle Brodziak: No goals in 18 games

This is essentially the entire bottom 9 on large goal droughts.

 

[MessierII]

Your argument was that they didn't change the roster. They did.

But they didn’t make it more talented. Neither did the isles.

 

[Little Fury]

But they didn’t make it more talented. Neither did the isles.

Do you think shedding talent is a good way to build a team?

 

[Soundwave]

But they didn’t make it more talented. Neither did the isles.

I don't buy that the Islanders formula is sustainable. I think they are just this year's version of the NJ Devils.

There's no team in the NHL that I can think of that has had consistent success, year after year with a sub par roster.

Because of parity and luck, you can I think over perform for a season, but the hockey gods will always yank your ass back to reality after that if you don't actually have the talent level.

 

[MessierII]

Do you think shedding talent is a good way to build a team?

No but my point is getting more talented isn’t the only way to get better. Flawed rosters overachieve in the nhl every year. Buy in and work ethic go a long way in a league with a fine line between good and bad.

 

[Soundwave]

speaking of the Caps, they finally won the Cup with perhaps their "least talented" team..Marcus Johansson was traded, Justin Williams left, Schmidt went to Vegas and Shattenkirk left for NYR

they were replaced with "less talented" players like Chiasson, Smith-Pelly, Kempny and Djoos

perhaps they found the right mix?

I wouldn't say that was their least talented team. Kuznetsov became a legit superstar and played like one in the playoffs especially where arguably he was their best player.

They were still very talented and deep. Kuzy turning into a star was the difference IMO, they didn't have that in their previous runs.

Kuznetsov 32 points in 24 playoff games was more than Ovechkin.

They went from a 2 star team (Ovy + Backstrom) to a 3 star team like the Penguins.

 

[Little Fury]

No but my point is getting more talented isn’t the only way to get better. Flawed rosters overachieve in the nhl every year.

Talent is the only way to build a consistent winner and Cup contender. Th e"bump along and maybe get lucky and make the playoffs" philosophy was fine when the Oilers were cash strapped small market team in a capless world in the 90s, that crap doesn't fly now that we have the best player in the world. Aim higher!

Buy in and work ethic go a long way in a league with a fine line between good and bad.

Buy in and work ethic only go as far as the other team's willingness to let you outwork them. If your team of motivated plumbers shows up to play a bunch of motivated all-stars, what do you think is probably gonna happen?