It's January 2015 And The Sabres Are Hovering Around .500 .....

MayDay

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Oct 21, 2005
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That was my point, Ted Nolan cares about the players he is coaching now not players he might coach 3 years from now. The Sabres were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs already when Ott, Miller and Moulson were cast off. If he has a team with any chance at catching a playoff spot let's see how he deals with Stafford and Stewart sent away for prospects and picks.

I expect Ted Nolan to try his best to win every night, and I'm sure that's what Tim Murray expects of Nolan too.

Nolan's job is to teach effort and a winning attitude to the young players, and he can only do that if he tries to win every night.

That said, they're going to lose most nights simply because they don't have the talent, and no coach can change that no matter how good. But that doesn't mean that Nolan shouldn't, or shouldn't be expected to, try his best to win every night.

What message does it send to the young players if the coach isn't doing his best? It create a terrible trickle-down effect in the locker-room and harm their development.
 

Yatzhee

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Aug 5, 2010
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Those aren't facts.

All you've said is you think our on ice problems will be fixed by pride and leadership

You've said Ted Nolan's "Effect" will help this team in it's on ice issues, when Ted Nolan is known to be somewhat inept tactically (fact)
You've said Puck possession and puck transition out of the zone will be corrected by players like Gorges and Gionta who won't allow it because of their pride which is borderline asinine.

I'm trying to make you realize that what you're saying is really wrong and pretty odd. Yet you keep bringing up pride and leadership like that matters with puck transition and possession. Also, Ted Nolan's system isn't a puck possession based system. So don't keep saying his "effect" will make us better, it won't.

LOL, where do you see me stating it will "solve these problems". I said they will help to off set them with their leadership, skill, experience and character. I stated they won't allow that to continue, and that means with in the realm of those sets of parameters listed above.

Listen to yourself for a moment. Your actually attempting to tell me that these signings this off season were useless. That is laughable. I've watched hockey for 43 years, played it for 22 in various forms, and yes, it makes a difference when character guys like Nolan, Gionta and Gorges are in the dressing room and on the ice with you.

Will they still be a lottery team? Sure, but once again, not in the 1 to 4 position barring injury in my opinion. My god, you want that 1st over all pick so bad, your actually willing to convince yourself this team didn't improve enough to contend with the bottom feeders that already are projected. My opinion differs from yours on that end based on the "facts" at hand. What are those facts, already listed them.

I'm literally laughing at this now. Once again, we'll see what happens at the end of this season.
 

ZeroPT*

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LOL, where do you see me stating it will "solve these problems". I said they will help to off set them with their leadership, skill, experience and character. I stated they won't allow that to continue, and that means with in the realm of those sets of parameters listed above.

Listen to yourself for a moment. Your actually attempting to tell me that these signings this off season were useless. That is laughable. I've watched hockey for 43 years, played it for 22 in various forms, and yes, it makes a difference when character guys like Nolan, Gionta and Gorges are in the dressing room and on the ice with you.

Will they still be a lottery team? Sure, but once again, not in the 1 to 4 position barring injury in my opinion. My god, you want that 1st over all pick so bad, your actually willing to convince yourself this team didn't improve enough to contend with the bottom feeders that already are projected. My opinion differs from yours on that end based on the "facts" at hand. What are those facts, already listed them.

I'm literally laughing at this now. Once again, we'll see what happens at the end of this season.

I literally never said the signings were useless, that's just you making **** up.

Laugh all you want, because if anyone is laughing it's me.

Pride and leadership offsets poor transition and puck possession? Lol
 

joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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I expect Ted Nolan to try his best to win every night, and I'm sure that's what Tim Murray expects of Nolan too.

Nolan's job is to teach effort and a winning attitude to the young players, and he can only do that if he tries to win every night.

That said, they're going to lose most nights simply because they don't have the talent, and no coach can change that no matter how good. But that doesn't mean that Nolan shouldn't, or shouldn't be expected to, try his best to win every night.

What message does it send to the young players if the coach isn't doing his best? It create a terrible trickle-down effect in the locker-room and harm their development.

Well said
 

stokes84

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Jun 30, 2008
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The talent is not as bad as last year, it's just not. We aren't going to have guys like Omark and Conacher and D'agostini filling top 6 roles. It's not going to be a waiver wire of the week situation like it was last year. People are really missing out on how bad that team was last year.
 

Jacob582

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Oct 16, 2012
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The talent is not as bad as last year, it's just not. We aren't going to have guys like Omark and Conacher and D'agostini filling top 6 roles. It's not going to be a waiver wire of the week situation like it was last year. People are really missing out on how bad that team was last year.

until a bunch of injuries.
 

EichHart

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Jul 3, 2011
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I honestly do not believe there is a single team in the NHL that would make that trade.

I agree. It would be a terminable offense.

Then the notion that this is the deepest draft in a decade is incorrect. I can see a team like the Canucks doing this. They are that the beginning of there rebuild. One trade like this and the rebuild is complete. 4 first rounds, 2 being high for one guy... The highest you can offer sheet is 4 1st rounders and that is for proven NHL top tier talent. Mackinnon or Jones last year, is the difference pick 13th, 22nd, 34, and 43rd? I don't think so.
 

MayDay

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Oct 21, 2005
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The talent is not as bad as last year

Where has it gotten better, aside from maybe Reinhart?

Miller > Neuvirth
Ehrhoff > Gorges
Ott = Gionta
Moulson = Moulson

Who does Meszaros bump off the roster? Not sure how much of an improvement he will be over whoever he's replacing. He's a reclamation project.

Sure you can point to guys like Omark and Conacher, but those were fill-ins when we hit a rash of injuries or lost players at the trade deadline. When we hit injuries this year or lose players to trade, we are going to need similar fill-ins.
 

stokes84

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until a bunch of injuries.

Moulson - Ennis - Stafford
Hodgson - Girgensons - Gionta
Foligno - Reinhart - Stewart
Deslauries - McCormick - Kaleta

Leaves us:

Larsson
Flynn
Mitchell

And then if things get desperate:
Grigorenko
Adam
Armia
Varone
Catennaci

It's not nearly as shallow as it was last year.
 

stokes84

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Jun 30, 2008
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Charleston, SC
Where has it gotten better, aside from maybe Reinhart?

Miller > Neuvirth
Ehrhoff > Gorges
Ott = Gionta
Moulson = Moulson

Who does Meszaros bump off the roster? Not sure how much of an improvement he will be over whoever he's replacing. He's a reclamation project.

Sure you can point to guys like Omark and Conacher, but those were fill-ins when we hit a rash of injuries or lost players at the trade deadline. When we hit injuries this year or lose players to trade, we are going to need similar fill-ins.

Gorges = or > Get me out of here Ehrhoff
Gionta >> Ott
Moulson > Get me out of here Vanek
Girgensons >>>>> Never played in the NHL Girgensons
2RW Hodgson > 1C Hodgson
(anyone) >>>>>>> Leino

There is improvement everywhere just out of circumstance. It's not hard to find. Hell, Flynn, Mitchell and Larsson are on the outside looking in. How much more evidence do you need?
 

haseoke39

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Mar 29, 2011
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Hell, Flynn, Mitchell and Larsson are on the outside looking in. How much more evidence do you need?

This is persuasive. The revolving carousel of waiver wire tank commanders doesn't seem to have a place this year. Anyone we put in McBain's spot will be an improvement, too. No big names came in, but we don't seem to have room for all the incompetence we had streaming through the lineup most of last season.
 

Sabretooth

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May 14, 2013
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Careful what you say, Ted Nolan is every bit the coach that is capable of pulling these guys to the 5th to 10th over all draft position.

Corsi is an advanced stat useful for evaluating this position. Corsi is shots + missed shots + blocked shots. CF% is (Team Corsi)/(Team Corsi + Opponent Corsi), and is useful in determining whether the team or the opponent had more opportunities to score in the game. A CF% of 50% means that teams had equal opportunities to score. A CF% less than 50% means the opponent had more opportunities to score, while a CF% of greater than 50% means the team had a greater opportunity to score.

Corsi is a useful stat to look at because Corsi correlates with goals, which correlate with wins (points). While it can be argued that wins and points are all that matter, tracking wins and points are not a reliable method for evaluating team performance. A team can play well and lose, or play poorly and win, and because there is a relatively small sample size of events (games, 82 in a season), the noise factors can not be filtered out. Goals and goal differential are another possible metric, but again teams can score many goal on a few shots and win, or score few goals on many shots and lose. so goal differential is also not really a great stat to determine how well a team is playing. Corsi has been identified as a stat that best evaluates a teams performance. Assuming similar goalie save %'s, a team with a higher CF% is expected to score more often and thus win more often than a team with a lower CF% over time, even if the relatively more rare and smaller sample sized stats of actual goals scored and wins/points do not correlate in the short term.

So what can this tell us about Rolston vs. Nolan?

Well, in all 5 on 5 situations regardless of score, the Sabres in 20 games under Rolston had a CF% of 42.31% (StDev of 7.22%, 1664 total corsi events). This means that if a game had 100 total corsi events 5 on 5, the sabres would have on average attempted 42 shots to their opponents' 58 shots.

In 62 games under Nolan, the Sabres had a CF% of 43.34% (StDev of 7.66%, 5328 total corsi events). This means that if a game had 100 total corsi events 5 on 5, the sabres would have on average attempted 43 shots to their opponents' 57 shots.

What this tells us is that the "Nolan effect", if it did indeed exist at all last year, accounted for all of 1 extra shot attempt per 100 total attempted shots in the game (both teams). The significance of this increase is... not much. The Sabres were 29th in CF% 5 on 5 last season with a 43.1% for the year. Only Toronto was worse with a 42.8%. The oilers, in 28th, were at 44.3%. It's possible you could argue that the change from Rolston to Nolan improved our CF% 5 on 5 by one position from dead last to just ahead of Toronto, but that is all.

It's also possible that there really was no difference at all between the team's perfomance under Rolston and Nolan - that the small change in Corsi is simply a matter of noise, or other factors that have nothing to do with the coach. Below are some visual representations of the data I'm looking at.

Here is a plot of the game by game 5 on 5 corsi. It's very hard to argue from this data that Nolan's team really performed any better than Rolston's. Perhaps there is a bump compared to Rolston from games 20-40, but there also looks like there is a dip compared to Rolston from games 40-60. And I wouldn't say there is any difference between games 1-20 under Rolston and 60-82 under Nolan. But a lot external factors went into the corsi that are not taken account for.
Trzven0.png


Here is a plot for the statistitians. This is the normal distribution for Rolston's CF% compared to Nolan's CF%. Now, I didn't exactly run any statistical tests on the data, but just by looking at the plot I would say any statistical test would find that there is no statistical evidence that Nolan's CF% was any different than Rolston's CF%.
ZYdmKXn.png


The last plot I have is my attempt and adjusting for 1 external factor: quality of opponent. Remember how earlier in this post I explained how teams with higher CF% were expected to be better than teams with lower CF% over time? Well, that means I can use a teams total CF% at the end of the season as a stand-in for quality of opponent. This plot, similar to the first plot, is a plot of all 82 games CF%. However, instead of simply being plotted sequentially, I've plotted the Sabres game by game CF% vs. their opponents' season ending CF%. Data points on the right side of the chart were therefore against better teams, and data points on the left side of the chart were against easier teams. In other words, you would expect the Sabre's CF% to be worse against teams with higher CF%, and better against teams with worse CF%. This chart confirms that expectation.
LEnv3Ro.png


It also shows that Rolston's opponents on average had a higher CF% than Nolan's opponents, as the blue dots are on average more to the right side of the plot than the red dots. Where Rolston's and Nolan's data points overlap against opponents with similar CF% (48%-54% on the X-axis), there isn't any noticeable difference in the teams performance (game CF%, y-axis). Therefore, from this chart it is easy to see that any improvement in the Sabres CF% under Nolan can pretty much be entirely attributed to the fact that on average, the Sabres played teams with a worse CF% under Nolan than under Rolston. In other words, Rolston had the tougher schedule, and there was really no improvement at all in on-ice performance that can be directly contributed to Nolan being the better coach.


I also took a look at all the same data but for 5 on 5 close. 5 on 5 close is defined as being tied or ahead or behind by 1 in the 1st and 2nd period, and tied only in the 3rd period. I looked at this data to be fair to Nolan. Based on TOI, Rolston's team was only 5 on 5 CLOSE in 58% of all 5 on 5 situations, while Nolan's team was 5 on 5 CLOSE in 67% of all 5 on 5 situations. Well, when games were not close last year that typically meant the sabres were behind, and teams that are behind typically see a boost in CF% as they press and opponents sit back to protect. the 9% difference in time spent CLOSE could mean that Rolston's CF% 5 on 5 all situations got a bit more of a boost than Nolan's CF% 5 on 5 all situations due to spending relatively more time behind. As shown above, this doesn't really say anything about the coach, but more to the fact that the Sabre's had a tougher schedule under Rolston and would be expected to be behind more often.

In 5 on 5 close situations, Rolston had a 39.02% compared to Nolan's 41.64%. Both coaches CF% 5 on 5 close was lower than their 5 on 5 all situations score, meaning both coaches must have seen an improvement in 5 on 5 all CF% due to getting more opportunities after falling behind. However, Rolston's CF% 5 on 5 close saw more of a drop than Nolan's as expected. In terms of shot attempts, assuming 60 corsi events in 5 on 5 close situations (remember 5 on 5 close is about 60% as many attempts as 5 on 5 all for both coaches), Rolston would expect 23.4 shot attempts to their opponents 36.6 shot attempts, while Nolan would expect 25.0 shot attempts to their opponents 35 shot attempts. In other words, the 'Nolan effect', if it existed, would only account for an extra 1.5 shots in 5 on 5 close situations in a game.

Like in all situations, this is not exactly a monstrous effect. The sabres finished dead last in the league in CF% 5 on 5 close with a season ending rating of 41.1%. The Leafs finished next to last with a rating of 42.1%, so any improvement, even if directly attributed to Nolan, does not even pull us out of last place in 5 on 5 close situations.

Here are the same 3 plots as above, except for 5 on 5 CLOSE situations. I don't have to say anything about them because I would just be repeating myself:
1YcyTJ4.png

MSAtlK7.png

2fs582z.png


There is just nothing in the data that shows there is a Nolan effect. There is no statistical evidence that shows a Nolan coached team, all else being equal, will perform better just because Nolan. The improvement that most saw in the team after Nolan took over is just a coincidence that Nolan took over at a time when the schedule became easier.

Look I'm not trying to defend Rolston or bash Nolan. I hated Rolston as a coach and prefer Nolan. There are many things the eye test shows that stats don't that are enough to prove that making the switch from Rolston to Nolan was a vast improvement for the team. But in the context of this thread, and the opinions of many that there is a 'Nolan effect' that can account for an improvement in points that alone could drag us out of the bottom spot in the league, well there is just nothing that shows that this 'Nolan effect' exists at all. The Sabres were as bad a team under Nolan as under Rolston. Sure, Nolan brought some amazing intangibles to the team. Hard work, effort, improvements in Myers, Ennis, and others, etc. But that is just what they seem to have been: intangible. As in, nice to see, but no effect on the bottom line.

Could the team be better next year? Sure! Perhaps the positive effects of having a competent coach take more time to set in, and eventually we will see an actual improvement in the team that can be attributed to coaching. Perhaps individual players had a poor year last year and will improve. Younger players may improve. New players (free agents, draft picks) may improve the teams overall corsi. Last year the team had a league worst shooting percentage of 5.7%. If that was an outlier, then even if nothing else changes but shooting percentage increases to a still bottom 3rd of the league 7%, then the sabres will score more goals and likely win more games. But also, the sabres had a pretty average team save percentage of 92.2%. With Miller gone, we should expect that to be lower, and if we drop to Islanders goal tending levels (91%) or worse (FLA was last with 89.9%), then we're going to be giving up a lot more goals and losing even more games. (all the stats in this paragraph were in 5 on 5 close situations)

But really, this whole idea that the Sabres will be better because Nolan really just needs to go away. The team may somehow be near .500 or somewhere other than the cellar in January, but it's likely not going to be attributed to Nolan getting more out of the team than other coaches would be able to.


*all stats in this post came from www.extraskater.com
 

ZeroPT*

Guest
Gorges = or > Get me out of here Ehrhoff
Gionta >> Ott
Moulson > Get me out of here Vanek
Girgensons >>>>> Never played in the NHL Girgensons
2RW Hodgson > 1C Hodgson
(anyone) >>>>>>> Leino

There is improvement everywhere just out of circumstance. It's not hard to find. Hell, Flynn, Mitchell and Larsson are on the outside looking in. How much more evidence do you need?

A checked out Ehrhoff was still a top 15 puck possession player and a 30 point D-man.
Gorges will block shots and be good defensively, that's about it.

Gionta is a marginal upgrade on Ott

We had Vanek for like a week, and we had Moulson most of the year

I really don't understand the Girgensons point. He'll be an upgrade on last year but he won't break out into a 60 point selke player. Also, there is such a thing as a sophomore slump.

Hodgson played on the 2nd line for most of the time, he played very little 1C with Nolan at the helm.

Won't argue Leino
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
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This is weird.

People are usually overly pessimistic about the Sabres chances heading into a season and now the talk is that they will be too good.

Once the games start, we will see that the changes that were made haven't really changed the overall talent level of the club and they will once again be one of the worst teams in the league.
 

MayDay

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Oct 21, 2005
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Gorges = or > Get me out of here Ehrhoff

Ehrhoff didn't really play poorly last season, in fact he was arguably our best defenseman. If he wanted out I don't think it really showed up in his play. At best this is a wash.

Gionta >> Ott

Not really much of an offensive upgrade. Gionta's offense has tailed off in recent years. Both are about 40 point players now. And I think Ott is probably a better defensive/checking forward.

Intangibles/leadership are about even I would say. Ott was a good leader/mentor to the young guys, and I think/hope Gionta will be one too.

Moulson > Get me out of here Vanek

But we had Moulson for almost the entire year last season, and the team wasn't any better with him than it was with Vanek. This isn't an upgrade. It's the same as last year.

Girgensons >>>>> Never played in the NHL Girgensons

So we hope, but we'll see. Lots of players take a step back in their 2nd NHL season, especially if they've had an impressive rookie season.

(anyone) >>>>>>> Leino

Can't really argue with that.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,408
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Rochester, NY
A checked out Ehrhoff was still a top 15 puck possession player and a 30 point D-man.
Gorges will block shots and be good defensively, that's about it.

Gionta is a marginal upgrade on Ott

We had Vanek for like a week, and we had Moulson most of the year

I really don't understand the Girgensons point. He'll be an upgrade on last year but he won't break out into a 60 point selke player. Also, there is such a thing as a sophomore slump.

Hodgson played on the 2nd line for most of the time, he played very little 1C with Nolan at the helm.

Won't argue Leino

Moulson's pace with the Sabres last year was for 21 goals and 54 pts over 82 games. Vanek and Moulson combined for 15 goals and 38 points in their 57 games as Sabres last year.

So, pretty much the same pace.

I don't see Moulson putting up a ton more offense this year. The only caveat is if Reinhart is his center and has just a ridiculous rookie year.

And I love the Gorges trade, but he is what he is. A great shutdown/shotblocking D. He's more a replacement for Tallinder than Ehrhoff.

The big question is whether Mes replaces Ehrhoff or McBain....
 

ZeroPT*

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Moulson's pace with the Sabres last year was for 21 goals and 54 pts over 82 games. Vanek and Moulson combined for 15 goals and 38 points in their 57 games as Sabres last year.

So, pretty much the same pace.

I don't see Moulson putting up a ton more offense this year. The only caveat is if Reinhart is his center and has just a ridiculous rookie year.

And I love the Gorges trade, but he is what he is. A great shutdown/shotblocking D. He's more a replacement for Tallinder than Ehrhoff.

The big question is whether Mes replaces Ehrhoff or McBain....

Mes has huge durability issues. I think he'll slot into the 2nd pairing with Pysyk.
 

Havok89

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Oct 26, 2010
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Moulson - Ennis - Stafford
Hodgson - Girgensons - Gionta
Foligno - Reinhart - Stewart
Deslauries - McCormick - Kaleta

Leaves us:

Larsson
Flynn
Mitchell

And then if things get desperate:
Grigorenko
Adam
Armia
Varone
Catennaci

It's not nearly as shallow as it was last year.

Offense is improved.
Defense is worse.
Goaltending is worse.

Can't wait for Tyler Myers to hit his yearly big injury and go down for 10+ games. This team will sink like a rock.
 

stokes84

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Jun 30, 2008
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Charleston, SC
People are jumping around to different points in the season, which I am guilty of too. But the point is, that lineup that I posted is stronger than ANY lineup we played last season at any point, by a significant margin.

As for Ehrhoff, you can post all the stats you want, but when your best defenseman is regularly giving up on plays and giving a half hearted effort, that is contagious and no stat will quantify this. Losing him is not a drop IMO. As Murray said, he wasn't helping us be better.
 

Yatzhee

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Aug 5, 2010
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People are jumping around to different points in the season, which I am guilty of too. But the point is, that lineup that I posted is stronger than ANY lineup we played last season at any point, by a significant margin.

Yes it will be. Improved players in the forward ranks, even if minimally improved, should translate in to less time in the defensive zone as well.
I believe many Sabres fans are in for a shock when this season gets under way. Many are saying we'll still be the worst team, I don't believe that is the case.
 

Sabretooth

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ZeroPT*

Guest
You're taking the line-up at face value too much.

It looks better but when you dig deeper into the statistics, it looks just as grim as last year.
 

stokes84

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Jun 30, 2008
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Charleston, SC
Offense is improved.
Defense is worse.
Goaltending is worse.

Can't wait for Tyler Myers to hit his yearly big injury and go down for 10+ games. This team will sink like a rock.

This Offense >>>> last offense
Defense could go either way. Replacing Hoff, McBain and Tallinder with Gorges, Risto and Pysyk looks like a win IMO.
Goaltending? It's the NHL. Their is usually a very insignificant difference.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

Guilty of Being Right
Mar 1, 2008
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Ehrhoff didn't really play poorly last season, in fact he was arguably our best defenseman. If he wanted out I don't think it really showed up in his play. At best this is a wash.
Meh. Ehrhoff's GA/60 ballooned last season, and at least some of his Corsi was the result of zone starts and anchoring the second pairing. Slightly easier minutes for Myers and an actual top 4 defensive defenseman will mitigate some of this loss.


Not really much of an offensive upgrade. Gionta's offense has tailed off in recent years. Both are about 40 point players now. And I think Ott is probably a better defensive/checking forward.
He's not. Gionta played on the Habs checking like with Plekanec the past few seasons and is a much better possession player. And he's the most mobile wing player Buffalo has had in a minute.

Intangibles/leadership are about even I would say. Ott was a good leader/mentor to the young guys, and I think/hope Gionta will be one too.
No argument.


But we had Moulson for almost the entire year last season, and the team wasn't any better with him than it was with Vanek. This isn't an upgrade. It's the same as last year.
Yeah, that's pretty much a push.

So we hope, but we'll see. Lots of players take a step back in their 2nd NHL season, especially if they've had an impressive rookie season.
Girgensons was either the first line LW on an overmatched first line or playing on the third line with two scrubs. He's not regressing.


Can't really argue with that.
Me neither.

The depth at forward is significantly improved from last season. The lineup dropped off into at-best fourth liners and AHL fodder much sooner than this year.
 

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