Italy 2026 Olympic Winter Games

[NetFrontPresence]

People have been talking about the 2022 Olympic Winter Games in China and how the NHL may go to help promote the game of hockey in China, but also may not go if the IOC doesn't pay the players insurance, travel and give marketing rights to the NHL.

I know its 7 years away but I was wondering what people think about the chances of the NHL going to the 2026 Olympic Winter Games in Italy, and from the NHL point of view what the potential pros and cons of going are and whether you think the NHL will ultimately end up going.​

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[adsfan]

If the NHL doesn't go in 2022, I would expect them to go in 2026 or never go to the Olympics again.

Pros: Exposure and ratings for hockey world wide. I wish I had a dollar for every person who told me that they only watch the SCF and Olympic hockey.

Cons: Insurance, player injury and stopping the NHL season for 16 days or so every 4 years. They NHL can just omit the ASG to make up a few days.

 

[LadyStanley]

Cons: Insurance, player injury and stopping the NHL season for 16 days or so every 4 years. They NHL can just omit the ASG to make up a few days.

The NHL already has in the past when they've participated in the Winter Olympics.

One issue is that the participating players (excluding those eliminated after round robin portion) do not get much of a break from skating. (While the rest of the league gets ~2 weeks break) Will there be a "bye" week that season? Will the league reduce schedule -- probably not as that would impact revenue.

 

[Ernie]

It's interesting to me that the NHL has invested so much time and money in putting hockey in non-traditional markets in the US but when it comes to international exposure they don't seem to care.

I would love to see the Europeans set up a super league one day to compete with the NHL. Franchises in all the major cities. If hockey can be successful in Vegas and Dallas, I don't see why it can't be in Paris and London. Think of the rivalries!

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It's interesting to me that the NHL has invested so much time and money in putting hockey in non-traditional markets in the US but when it comes to international exposure they don't seem to care.

I would love to see the Europeans set up a super league one day to compete with the NHL. Franchises in all the major cities. If hockey can be successful in Vegas and Dallas, I don't see why it can't be in Paris and London. Think of the rivalries!

1. A European super league will never happen. The KHL tried that and failed spectacularly. That "think of the rivalries" comment is a clear sign someone has never been to Europe or just flat out doesn't know anything about the continent.
2. Doesn't seem to care? What do you call playing the NHL playing games every single year in Europe? That's pretty dang good international exposure. Sending Ovechkin to China this year as well? Playing in Beijing also? That doesn't seem like not caring. That seems like doing a whole lot.

 

[Ernie]

1. A European super league will never happen. The KHL tried that and failed spectacularly. That "think of the rivalries" comment is a clear sign someone has never been to Europe or just flat out doesn't know anything about the continent.

So the Russians tried to create and control a league in Europe and failed. Therefore it should never be tried again. Okie dokie.

I'm curious as to what deep insight you have about Europe from visiting there.

2. Doesn't seem to care? What do you call playing the NHL playing games every single year in Europe? That's pretty dang good international exposure. Sending Ovechkin to China this year as well? Playing in Beijing also? That doesn't seem like not caring. That seems like doing a whole lot.

Yup, that's not caring. You aren't going to create fans by having teams sporadically visiting different parts of the globe. You create fans by giving them a local product to connect with. I somehow doubt there was a spike of Ovechkin jerseys sales in China after his visit.

 

[Albatros]

The Russians have been more successful than anyone else could because they have been paying the bills. Without that money it's difficult to do more than what the CHL represents at the moment.

 

[sandysan]

People have been talking about the 2022 Olympic Winter Games in China and how the NHL may go to help promote the game of hockey in China, but also may not go if the IOC doesn't pay the players insurance, travel and give marketing rights to the NHL.

I know its 7 years away but I was wondering what people think about the chances of the NHL going to the 2026 Olympic Winter Games in Italy, and from the NHL point of view what the potential pros and cons of going are and whether you think the NHL will ultimately end up going.​

pros : none ( unless the league gets to use footage to promote the league, not the game or some amorphous concept thereof)
cons: torino hasn't actually become a hockey hot bed in the last 13 years or so. fool me once..........

 

[sandysan]

If the NHL doesn't go in 2022, I would expect them to go in 2026 or never go to the Olympics again.

Pros: Exposure and ratings for hockey world wide. I wish I had a dollar for every person who told me that they only watch the SCF and Olympic hockey.

Cons: Insurance, player injury and stopping the NHL season for 16 days or so every 4 years. They NHL can just omit the ASG to make up a few days.

isn't that a liability in a gate driven league ? That they will watch it for free, but wont pay a dime to see the best players on the planet, other than at most 2 weeks of the year ?
and the all star game is in extant markets, where the people who attend have the option to actually watch games with their team in them.

The ASG, the league controls the narrative. when the rings get involved, that doesnt happen. teams like the ASG and the exposure the league provides, they aint giving that up to chase a 2 week on 5o week off demographic.

 

[LPHabsFan]

It's funny that the comment is to compare hockey in European cities to that of non-traditional markets because at the end of the day, the issue with those two things will always be whether or not they can generate enough money. Right now the answer in both cases is no. A European/Asias super league will always have a difficult time getting started due to lack of high interest (read: investment from fans/corporation) combined with not enough talent to really go around.

As to the original question regarding the Olympics.....this also has to do with the level of interest comment regarding the NHL in European markets. They are interested, and have been for 20+ years. It's why the NHL sent players to Nagano in the first place. The problem is that people assume that the owners will value exposure of the game to non traditional areas over economic returns, along with the notion that all Olympics are created equally.

There are a number of real (direct costs, lack of advertising money, lack of media rights, etc...) and potential (injuries, fatigue during playoffs) negative economic impacts that going to Olympics have. However, they are willing to sacrifice that IF there is the potential for them to benefit economically. How are they able to potentially benefit economically? Very simple. Their core current and potential customers need to be able to consume the product. Those customers, simply put, are North Americans. If the games that the US/Canada play are overnight or very early in the morning, the ratings are going to suck. Prime time replays don't cut it especially in the time of digital media and access. They need to be able to watch the games live and at a reasonable time. Even if NHL players would have been there in South Korea, the ratings would have tanked. The games started at 7 in the morning and were over by 10 or some were at 2:30 in the morning or there about. Do you think millions of people are going to either A - stay up that late, or B, move around their work schedule to be able to watch it (if possible which for most people it's not).

So if you want to know whether or not the NHL is likely to go, you have to ask yourself whether or not there is the potential to make money and specifically, whether or not North Americans are going to be able to watch the games.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So the Russians tried to create and control a league in Europe and failed. Therefore it should never be tried again. Okie dokie.

I'm curious as to what deep insight you have about Europe from visiting there.



Yup, that's not caring. You aren't going to create fans by having teams sporadically visiting different parts of the globe. You create fans by giving them a local product to connect with. I somehow doubt there was a spike of Ovechkin jerseys sales in China after his visit.

Since spending most of my life in Europe, people don't care about super leagues for any sport and only care about country leagues. North Americans think there is rivalry with other countries because of close geography and this is incorrect. Almost all North America speaks one language and has one culture. Europe does not share this. Fans in München care more about playing teams from Berlin, Hamburg, and Stuttgart each week than teams from Italy. Italy is close but this means nothing. Fans of London teams care more about playing teams from Manchester, Birmingham, and Leicester each week. Paris is close, but this means nothing.

There is little rivalry with another culture, another language, another country. This rivalry is saved for rare and designated things like Champions League or World Cup. Remember that Americans rarely care for what occurs in Canada. And there are 43 countries and dozens of languages in an area smaller than the United States. There are borders every few hours driving in a car. A super league is not possible. Football can't even form a super league, despite a lot of trying. Hockey is not possible either.

And what local product? The earliest NHL games start after midnight in Europe! The NHL is playing the local product when they travel to Europe. You foolishly expect a fan from Lausanne to forget their local team, wake up at 1 am and watch a Rangers game? You need help.

And the NHL, with Chinese government, is helping grow hockey in Europe, whether you realize it or not. China Games latest step for NHL in building hockey infrastructure / https://thehockeywriters.com/chinese-hockey-expanding-at-astonishing-rate/ / Forget golf, ice hockey is the new sport of China’s richest

 

[Bookie21]

With what's going on in Hong Kong and the debacle the NBA just endured in China, there is no way the NHL permits its players to go there for the Olympics

 

[tony d]

No, I think the NHL is done with going to the Olympics.

 

[Ernie]

I'm not saying your arguments don't have some merit.

But there have been tons of arguments made about soccer in North America.

In 2004 MLS was a struggling, money losing league. Real Salt Lake paid just $10m to join.

15 years later and expansion fees are now $200m and the average team is worth $300m. Collectively the league is worth about $8bn.

My point is just that hockey is an exciting game that attracts a lot of fans that don't have a lot of historical connection to it. I'm not suggesting that it'll ever compete for the top sport in Paris, or even come close to it. But even a niche sport can be very profitable.

As for the no rivalry across borders thing, how do Boston fans feel about the Montreal Canadiens?

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

I doubt it. If they didn't go to S. Korea, then I doubt Italy makes more sense. Footy has a monopoly on pretty much anything sports related there.

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

So the Russians tried to create and control a league in Europe and failed. Therefore it should never be tried again. Okie dokie.

I'm curious as to what deep insight you have about Europe from visiting there.



Yup, that's not caring. You aren't going to create fans by having teams sporadically visiting different parts of the globe. You create fans by giving them a local product to connect with. I somehow doubt there was a spike of Ovechkin jerseys sales in China after his visit.

Why would you ever assume that it would work if the KHL failed, though? The KHL has its issues, but it still is a premier league in the hockey sphere. The KHL took franchises from established leagues and still failed. The reason? Well, it's, in-part, due to the fact that hockey thrives on local rivalries. How would you ever incentivize owners to leave established leagues for one that may not work (especially given the fact that the KHL experiment failed in Czechia, Slovakia, and Croatia)? You'd have to move more than two teams at a time or something ridiculous. If you're going to just randomly create new franchises, then you'd have to put them in places where there isn't already competition (arena reasons, on top of financial ones). Where do you form clubs? The Balkans? I don't think any investor would be wise to fund this.

Hockey is a niche sport pretty much everywhere in Europe. I don't think there will ever be a superleague and I highly, highly doubt there will ever be a league to rival the NHL. It's much more likely that the NHL expands to Europe and I don't think this is practical in the slightest. Ovechkin jerseys sold because the NHL is very wealthy and has the world's largest hockey market at their finger tips. I want you to point at a place(s) in Europe that you think would have the marketing power to rival the NHL and not already have an established club.

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

No, I think the NHL is done with going to the Olympics.

I could POSSIBLY see them going if a conventional country gets the host spot. For instance, if the 2030 Olympics are in the U.S. or Canada.

On the other hand, there's literally little reason to market your superstars in a country that doesn't care about or let alone even knows what hockey is.

 

[Albatros]

Even in soccer there are very few if any international rivalries, some clubs like Liverpool and Juventus have emotional history because of particular events but that's about it.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I'm not saying your arguments don't have some merit.

But there have been tons of arguments made about soccer in North America.

In 2004 MLS was a struggling, money losing league. Real Salt Lake paid just $10m to join.

15 years later and expansion fees are now $200m and the average team is worth $300m. Collectively the league is worth about $8bn.

My point is just that hockey is an exciting game that attracts a lot of fans that don't have a lot of historical connection to it. I'm not suggesting that it'll ever compete for the top sport in Paris, or even come close to it. But even a niche sport can be very profitable.

As for the no rivalry across borders thing, how do Boston fans feel about the Montreal Canadiens?

MLS still only has 7 teams making money. You call that success? The most profitable team, Atlanta, only made $7 million despite having by far the largest attendance and collecting the expansion fees. That is not success. MLS has not changed as they still are a money losing league. The league may be worth a lot of money, but if no money is coming in then this is without meaning. Toronto FC alone lost more money than the 7 teams who made money earned.

Look at the financial records of European hockey teams if you think that this niche sport is very profitable. Learn the business of European sports, they are very different than your North American ones. The second best league in Europe is the KHL and only one team made money last season. The third most profitable team, Jokerit, lost more than 10 million Euros for the second consecutive season. European hockey teams are very lucky to break even. Why do you think there are many different sponsorships covering nearly every inch of the ice and jerseys? No sport with good finances has that.

Boston fans hate the Canadiens for reasons that have nothing to do with geography, culture, or language. It's a rivalry between two large towns that have played 6 barnburner playoff series in the last 20 years and have played each other nearly 1.000 times in regular season history. They faced each other 10 times in the playoffs from the mid-80s to mid-90s. Despite the international nature of it, there's nothing about this rivalry that has to do with "rivalry across borders thing." Canadiens have no rivalry with New York area teams despite similar distance. Toronto-Detroit are closer than Montréal-Boston, there is no such rivalry. If they played in 9 game 7s in their history then they would. Try again if you want.

 

[Ernie]

Well there are lots of replies so I'll just answer with some general thoughts.

The KHL isn't really a super league. It's a domestic league with a few teams in Eastern Europe and a tons of teams from relatively remote Russian small cities. Certainly there could be teams from Russia in a European super league, but if a super league is going to be run by Russians with connections to Putin, I don't really have a lot of confidence in its success.

I don't know a lot about European sports rivalries. It's true. But the examples used why it wouldn't work don't seem super compelling. London and Paris playing each other a bunch of times could create a rivalry. There are national rivalries in the Champions League, but there is no consistency on who faces each other so it's hard to see long term rivalries forming. But the idea that there is no nationalism in Europe sports doesn't really add up when you look international soccer. Obviously, there are differences, but the point is that perhaps this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand like some people here are doing.

Regarding the financial issues, perhaps I'm biased, but I do think that the money could work. It is a compelling sport to watch but it's one that you need to see live to get the full experience. Similar to how teams in non-traditional markets in the US have built a following. LA has no history of hockey and is a very busy sports market, but the metro population is the same size as Paris and it manages to support two NHL teams with combined revenues of $340m (Forbes).

 

[Albatros]

But the idea that there is no nationalism in Europe sports doesn't really add up when you look international soccer.

That's a different thing altogether, if Manchester City is looking for European glory then United fans are at most going to cheer for their foreign opponents and so on.

 

[Ernie]

That's a different thing altogether, if Manchester City is looking for European glory then United fans are at most going to cheer for their foreign opponents and so on.

Oh, I get that. But that's because there is a local rivalry there. If London was the only team in the UK, it would be a different dynamic.

For instance, look at sports in Canada. As a Vancouverite, I'll cheer for the Bruins to beat the Leafs, even though I hate the Bruins. But the Raptors winning a championship and the Jays going for a playoff run brings out tons of support across Canada, even if it still feels a bit dirty cheering for a Toronto team.

 

[Wolf357]

I used to absolutely love the Canada Cups back in the 80’s and ‘91.
The ‘96, and 2004 WorldCups were pretty good...but the last one in 2016 just seemed like a International exhibition tournament.
But all the Olympics be it best on best or when the NHL hasnt gone have been great.
Hopefully the NHL goes back to the Olympics..but if not I hope they fix the World Cup .

 

[sandysan]

I used to absolutely love the Canada Cups back in the 80’s and ‘91.
The ‘96, and 2004 WorldCups were pretty good...but the last one in 2016 just seemed like a International exhibition tournament.
But all the Olympics be it best on best or when the NHL hasnt gone have been great.
Hopefully the NHL goes back to the Olympics..but if not I hope they fix the World Cup .

come again ?
the last one was awful
it was like cosmo kramer getting his black belt by beating up on children
unwatchable

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Well there are lots of replies so I'll just answer with some general thoughts.

The KHL isn't really a super league. It's a domestic league with a few teams in Eastern Europe and a tons of teams from relatively remote Russian small cities. Certainly there could be teams from Russia in a European super league, but if a super league is going to be run by Russians with connections to Putin, I don't really have a lot of confidence in its success.

I don't know a lot about European sports rivalries. It's true. But the examples used why it wouldn't work don't seem super compelling. London and Paris playing each other a bunch of times could create a rivalry. There are national rivalries in the Champions League, but there is no consistency on who faces each other so it's hard to see long term rivalries forming. But the idea that there is no nationalism in Europe sports doesn't really add up when you look international soccer. Obviously, there are differences, but the point is that perhaps this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand like some people here are doing.

Regarding the financial issues, perhaps I'm biased, but I do think that the money could work. It is a compelling sport to watch but it's one that you need to see live to get the full experience. Similar to how teams in non-traditional markets in the US have built a following. LA has no history of hockey and is a very busy sports market, but the metro population is the same size as Paris and it manages to support two NHL teams with combined revenues of $340m (Forbes).

KHL aimed to expand to 60 teams starting in 2010. They failed to do this despite having much more money and influence than any other institution, including the NHL or any group willing/able to start a European super league. He managed to get 8 non-Russian European teams to join the KHL. He was one of the few people with the finances and support to actually accomplish it. I pity you if you think the NHL would get them together. It took years to get pre-season games against teams.

London and Paris teams playing each other would not create a rivalry. Stoking Great War-type nationalistic rivalry to create great sporting opportunities between countries is another faux North American thought by you. That does not work, and even during the one time it does happen during the World Cup it is pretty tame. I invite you to travel to Europe. Trying to get people in one country to get behind one North American-styled franchise team is not possible. Once again, footballers tried this and North American franchises do not work in Europe as much as European style promotion-relegation style doesn't work in North America.

International soccer is different. That is country against country. That is not a team. That is a national team. Team USA vs Canada during the Olympics does not translate London vs. Paris. The moment the Olympics are over, you are not waiting for the next American team to come along. During the Champions League, PSG does not have a great rivalry with Arsenal or Chelsea despite the France and England not liking each other.

Regarding the financial issues, you're completely uninformed but you think it will work. Look at the finances available for European pro hockey leagues.

Los Angeles with no hockey history? Los Angeles had Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player in history. They had a stacked team for many years in the 80s. Luc Robitaille, Rob Blake, Dave Taylor, Marcel Dionne. You call that no history of hockey?

Oh, I get that. But that's because there is a local rivalry there. If London was the only team in the UK, it would be a different dynamic.

Once again, another inaccurate North American thought on Europe. This was the goal of the KHL when during European expansion. The entire country didn't start supporting Lev Praha, despite being in the capital, largest city, and being on of the top non-NHL teams in the world. All of England will not stop and support a London NFL team according to studies done by the NFL. Out of all of tickets bought for the NFL series, 9/10 were coming from within an hour of London, which is regular commuting time for most. People in Manchester are not getting behind a NFL team in London. Like many things you have asserted, Canadian baseball fans cheering the Blue Jays from all over Canada is a Canadian thing that does not translate to Europe.

I suggest you travel or live in Europe or really read any of European hockey history before you comment further. If a super league was possible in any sport, with the interest from business people that have attracted by it and the numerous times it has been tried, it would have been done long ago. I can even provide articles if you seek those reading material, translation not included.