It is time to start chanting fire Blashill at the Joe

[Claypool]

It's been stated that Datsyuk wanted out of the deal immediately after signing it. The Wings basically coerced him to stay the second year by saying they wouldn't fight him leaving the third year.

You don't sign a multi-million dollar, multi-year contract without knowing the details and stipulations involved. You'd think his agent would review contract details with him under a new CBA. If he really thought he could walk anytime after signing that deal without the team being saddled with his cap space then he's a really big idiot. Ultimately, the situation falls on Datsyuk. He signed the deal. He wasn't held at gunpoint.

If he didn't want to carry a bad team then he shouldn't have been the team's highest-paid player. He should have asked for a major paycut considering he's only good for 60 games at most during a season. I'd go even further by saying he's lucky to even get a three year deal given the crap he pulled during the Olympic season.

 

[Reddwit]

I'm as critical as anyone of Holland but when you have the opportunity to have Datsyuk on your team for 3 more years, you take it. Dats deserves the lionshare of blame on that one.

I do agree that the team being garbage probably made it an easier decision to go back to Russia. But he wanted out right after signing it.

I just can't agree. The Datsyuk deal reeks of Holland being overconfident in his ability to swindle guys into staying because of some air of loyalty.

That's just not the case. The guy overestimates the value of this jersey because he managed the team through its modern heyday. He's like the high school senior jock still wearing the varsity jacket into his twenties. He's out of touch.

He offers the deal because he thinks that buys him time to convince the guy (whoever it is) to stay (or take a paycut. or defer salary) in time. Problem is, the chips he's playing with are bogus.

From everything we've learned, Datsyuk was open about his reluctance to stay BEFORE signing the most recent deal. Now we want to put it on Datsyuk because he signed a deal that a GM offered that was obviously not in the best interest of the organization?

Jesus, folks. Are we really bickering over a guy who put his own team in a bad position because he's several seasons late to the party when it comes to an objective assessment of the team? Really.

 

[ap3x]

I'm not purporting an argumeny based on a flimsy premise, ergo, I'm not sure how you see my statement as a strawman argument. This is, at best, a bubble team that is performing as expected.

As for the second part; by your own admission, the kids are playing well under Blash. It speaks well of their development to perform when called up, but they won't maintain that without having solid coaching.

Is it just me that considers it weird to blame the roster when this team sucks - widespread around here -, but the kids playing great is thanks to Blash?

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Is it just me that considers it weird to blame the roster when this team sucks - widespread around here -, but the kids playing great is thanks to Blash?

I mean it's possible that could happen. Not saying it's what's happening but its possible

All the vets suck. All the "prime" players suck. And all the young kids can develop good under blash

Not that hard

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You don't sign a multi-million dollar, multi-year contract without knowing the details and stipulations involved. You'd think his agent would review contract details with him under a new CBA. If he really thought he could walk anytime after signing that deal without the team being saddled with his cap space then he's a really big idiot. Ultimately, the situation falls on Datsyuk. He signed the deal. He wasn't held at gunpoint.

If he didn't want to carry a bad team then he shouldn't have been the team's highest-paid player. He should have asked for a major paycut considering he's only good for 60 games at most during a season. I'd go even further by saying he's lucky to even get a three year deal given the crap he pulled during the Olympic season.

Datsyuk actually clarified that he understood the deal when he signed it, but he wanted to go back home. It wasn't a case where he was unclear on what it meant to him and the team.

I just can't agree. The Datsyuk deal reeks of Holland being overconfident in his ability to swindle guys into staying because of some air of loyalty.

That's just not the case. The guy overestimates the value of this jersey because he managed the team through its modern heyday. He's like the high school senior jock still wearing the varsity jacket into his twenties. He's out of touch.

He offers the deal because he thinks that buys him time to convince the guy (whoever it is) to stay (or take a paycut. or defer salary) in time. Problem is, the chips he's playing with are bogus.

From everything we've learned, Datsyuk was open about his reluctance to stay BEFORE signing the most recent deal. Now we want to put it on Datsyuk because he signed a deal that a GM offered that was obviously not in the best interest of the organization?

Jesus, folks. Are we really bickering over a guy who put his own team in a bad position because he's several seasons late to the party when it comes to an objective assessment of the team? Really.

Datsyuk is a grown man represented by an agent who made the decision to sign the contract. So yes I put it on him.

To be clear I'm still a Datsyuk fan, but he made a mistake. Even with all the things I do blame Holland for, at the time if you get three years of Datsyuk you take it. Even in diminished capacity he would be an asset to the team.

 

[jkutswings]

Datsyuk actually clarified that he understood the deal when he signed it, but he wanted to go back home. It wasn't a case where he was unclear on what it meant to him and the team.



Datsyuk is a grown man represented by an agent who made the decision to sign the contract. So yes I put it on him.

To be clear I'm still a Datsyuk fan, but he made a mistake. Even with all the things I do blame Holland for, at the time if you get three years of Datsyuk you take it. Even in diminished capacity he would be an asset to the team.

I agree that understanding what you're signing, and honoring your agreement is on Datsyuk, but if the guy across from me says he wants out before the ink is even dry on the contract, I'm at least making a few phone calls to see what trade value he could have. I know hindsight is 20/20, but depending on what they could have fetched for him, it would have been nice to get a tangible return, instead of a dumped cap hit that just went to more so-so veterans.

But hey, who am I kidding? Proactive doesn't work for this franchise.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I agree that understanding what you're signing, and honoring your agreement is on Datsyuk, but if the guy across from me says he wants out before the ink is even dry on the contract, I'm at least making a few phone calls to see what trade value he could have. I know hindsight is 20/20, but depending on what they could have fetched for him, it would have been nice to get a tangible return, instead of a dumped cap hit that just went to more so-so veterans.

But hey, who am I kidding? Proactive doesn't work for this franchise.

Ah, well that's a different story.

Yes, if not for "the streak" Holland could have acquired some nice assets by moving Datsyuk at the trade deadline last season to a team making a serious run at the Cup. It might have been sticky given they knew Dats was headed back to Russia, but I'm not sure if that would qualify as cap circumvention or collusion.

 

[Frk It]

Ah, well that's a different story.

Yes, if not for "the streak" Holland could have acquired some nice assets by moving Datsyuk at the trade deadline last season to a team making a serious run at the Cup. It might have been sticky given they knew Dats was headed back to Russia, but I'm not sure if that would qualify as cap circumvention or collusion.

He wasn't suggesting trading him at least year's TDL, but around the time he signed his new contract.

I agree that understanding what you're signing, and honoring your agreement is on Datsyuk, but if the guy across from me says he wants out before the ink is even dry on the contract, I'm at least making a few phone calls to see what trade value he could have. I know hindsight is 20/20, but depending on what they could have fetched for him, it would have been nice to get a tangible return, instead of a dumped cap hit that just went to more so-so veterans.

But hey, who am I kidding? Proactive doesn't work for this franchise.

Datsyuk is the reason I started to follow this team, and eventually like the team as a whole. If Holland had traded Datsyuk 3 years ago I would have lost my ****. I'm sure I am not the only one. That move would have been received poorly by many, and I personally would have hated him for it.

I'm honestly mad you're even suggesting it on just a hypothetical basis.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

He wasn't suggesting trading him at least year's TDL, but around the time he signed his new contract.



Datsyuk is the reason I started to follow this team, and eventually like the team as a whole. If Holland had traded Datsyuk 3 years ago I would have lost my ****. I'm sure I am not the only one. That move would have been received poorly by many, and I personally would have hated him for it.

I'm honestly mad you're even suggesting it on just a hypothetical basis.

I took the part about the dumped cap hit to mean last season, but not sure.

Even had they done it then fans would've rioted until it came out that Dats was headed back home.

 

[19 for president]

He wasn't suggesting trading him at least year's TDL, but around the time he signed his new contract.



Datsyuk is the reason I started to follow this team, and eventually like the team as a whole. If Holland had traded Datsyuk 3 years ago I would have lost my ****. I'm sure I am not the only one. That move would have been received poorly by many, and I personally would have hated him for it.

I'm honestly mad you're even suggesting it on just a hypothetical basis.

Also if I'm another GM I seriously question why you are trading him. You don't trade players like Datsyuk. He is one of the few players people will pay to see. Even if your team sucks, he brings people to games with his play. So I doubt we could have hoodwinked anyone. Plus if Dats was going to play for anyone at all and not just retire immediately it was the Wings.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I agree that understanding what you're signing, and honoring your agreement is on Datsyuk, but if the guy across from me says he wants out before the ink is even dry on the contract, I'm at least making a few phone calls to see what trade value he could have. I know hindsight is 20/20, but depending on what they could have fetched for him, it would have been nice to get a tangible return, instead of a dumped cap hit that just went to more so-so veterans.

But hey, who am I kidding? Proactive doesn't work for this franchise.

Yeah... Sign basically the face of your franchise (Z was captain, but Datsyuk was the one who put butts in seats and players around the league gawked at) for 3 years and immediately offer him up. There is a zero percent chance that Rival GM isn't going to say "What the hell is wrong with Datsyuk that you're calling me about him?"

And if there is a greater than zero % chance that you can get two years out of Datsyuk (like the Wings did on the deal), those two years are way the hell more valuable than whatever mystery box you'd get from a GM wary that something is wrong with him.

 

[TheMule93]

Also if I'm another GM I seriously question why you are trading him. You don't trade players like Datsyuk. He is one of the few players people will pay to see. Even if your team sucks, he brings people to games with his play. So I doubt we could have hoodwinked anyone. Plus if Dats was going to play for anyone at all and not just retire immediately it was the Wings.

Not really. A GM (and just about any fan) could use critical thinking to realize that the red wings are trying to rebuild, and are offloading their aging stars while they still have some value

 

[Frk It]

Let's also remember that Datsyuk re-signed in the summer of 2013. Which was right after we beat the #2 seed Ducks, and took the #1 Hawks to 7 games in the 2nd round.

So yeah, Holland was not going to re-build then. He's fighting it now even when we are at the bottom of the standings.

 

[19 for president]

Not really. A GM (and just about any fan) could use critical thinking to realize that the red wings are trying to rebuild, and are offloading their aging stars while they still have some value

Not right after he just resigned with the team. In like year 2 or 3 maybe but not immediately after signing the contract.

1. Wings weren't rebuilding at the time.
2. Datsyuk was the face of the franchise & is the largest draw the team had.
3. The Wings had no one at the time to replace him or at the time anyone in the system that looked like they could replace him. This was pre-Larkin.
4. Datsyuk had repeatedly stated that he wanted to finish his career in Russia, so the warning signs were already there.
5. Red Wings/Holland don't trade franchise guys.

So if the Wings resign Datsyuk and suddenly decide to trade him a month or two later, I think there are huge warning signs that any critical thinking GM would pick up on.

Now if this were mid contract, the Wings were selling other players, Datsyuk hadn't publicly stated his desire to finish in Russia, and the Wings had traded any decent player in the past 20 years, then yeah they might have been able to sneak that one in. Or if Datsyuk were say in his late 20s and wasn't winding down yet, because sign and trades do happen for younger super stars, but not typically older ones.

 

[jkutswings]

Not right after he just resigned with the team. In like year 2 or 3 maybe but not immediately after signing the contract.

1. Wings weren't rebuilding at the time.
2. Datsyuk was the face of the franchise & is the largest draw the team had.
3. The Wings had no one at the time to replace him or at the time anyone in the system that looked like they could replace him. This was pre-Larkin.
4. Datsyuk had repeatedly stated that he wanted to finish his career in Russia, so the warning signs were already there.
5. Red Wings/Holland don't trade franchise guys.

So if the Wings resign Datsyuk and suddenly decide to trade him a month or two later, I think there are huge warning signs that any critical thinking GM would pick up on.

Now if this were mid contract, the Wings were selling other players, Datsyuk hadn't publicly stated his desire to finish in Russia, and the Wings had traded any decent player in the past 20 years, then yeah they might have been able to sneak that one in. Or if Datsyuk were say in his late 20s and wasn't winding down yet, because sign and trades do happen for younger super stars, but not typically older ones.

I understand the million reasons why Holland would never have done it. My entire statement was based on being realistic and proactive from a purely competitive standpoint...a concept where this franchise has been asleep at the switch for 5 years now.

No kidding the fans would have killed him over it. But if popularity was the only criteria, the Phaneuf trade and a dozen other spur-of-the-moment moves would have happened as well. Obviously they preferred the regular season revenue over rebuilding while assets had value, and that's their prerogative. But it also means I don't have any sympathy for their current struggles, because they brought it on themselves with their collective moves over the last half decade.

I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing with you in particular. But 4 years ago I was advocating for these same things, despite overwhelming fan opposition to the notion. And while it's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback, I stand by the opinion that the franchise would be in a better position now, had they realized the run was over when it actually ended, and started acting accordingly.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I understand the million reasons why Holland would never have done it. My entire statement was based on being realistic and proactive from a purely competitive standpoint...a concept where this franchise has been asleep at the switch for 5 years now.

No kidding the fans would have killed him over it. But if popularity was the only criteria, the Phaneuf trade and a dozen other spur-of-the-moment moves would have happened as well. Obviously they preferred the regular season revenue over rebuilding while assets had value, and that's their prerogative. But it also means I don't have any sympathy for their current struggles, because they brought it on themselves with their collective moves over the last half decade.

I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing with you in particular. But 4 years ago I was advocating for these same things, despite overwhelming fan opposition to the notion. And while it's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback, I stand by the opinion that the franchise would be in a better position now, had they realized the run was over when it actually ended, and started acting accordingly.

So basically, they might be in better shape if they threw away everything that made them a premier organization in all of sports so they could "sell assets when they had value". Good call.

I stand by the fact that nothing you were going to get for Pavel Datsyuk was going to even approach the value you would get from having Pavel Datsyuk on your roster for two years. The teams that would want him and that he'd accept a deal to and maybe stick around would be Cup Contenders. Is it really worth a 25-30 OA and maybe an okay prospect for two years of a PPG #1C?

 

[jkutswings]

Is it really worth a 25-30 OA and maybe an okay prospect for two years of a PPG #1C?

If all you care about is winning championships, absolutely. In the two years he stayed here, the team did nothing whatsoever, and they not only got nothing for him, but they had to trade down to unload him. Not to mention that I would have been HAPPY if trading him resulted in more losses (and thus high draft picks).

I don't just grab an edge of the band-aid and take 5 years to slowly remove it. If you're not one of the best, and your best players are at the end of their careers, then blow it up and start over, or you're just wasting time.

 

[Retire91]

I find it funny to think back on the argument against the rebuild that they didn't want to go into the new arena with a crappy team.

 

[TheMule93]

I don't just grab an edge of the band-aid and take 5 years to slowly remove it. If you're not one of the best, and your best players are at the end of their careers, then blow it up and start over, or you're just wasting time.

Thank you for providing such based statements every time you post. I agree with your thoughts completely.

 

[Claypool]

I find it funny to think back on the argument against the rebuild that they didn't want to go into the new arena with a crappy team.

I never understood that conspiracy theory, either.

 

[19 for president]

I understand the million reasons why Holland would never have done it. My entire statement was based on being realistic and proactive from a purely competitive standpoint...a concept where this franchise has been asleep at the switch for 5 years now.

No kidding the fans would have killed him over it. But if popularity was the only criteria, the Phaneuf trade and a dozen other spur-of-the-moment moves would have happened as well. Obviously they preferred the regular season revenue over rebuilding while assets had value, and that's their prerogative. But it also means I don't have any sympathy for their current struggles, because they brought it on themselves with their collective moves over the last half decade.

I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing with you in particular. But 4 years ago I was advocating for these same things, despite overwhelming fan opposition to the notion. And while it's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback, I stand by the opinion that the franchise would be in a better position now, had they realized the run was over when it actually ended, and started acting accordingly.

Oh that wasn't meant to be anti the idea. My point is that with all those factors, I don't see the Wings being able to sneakily deal Datsyuk to another team. You trade a player like Dars under those circumstances and the GM of another team is going to know something is up.

In regards to a rebuilding, it should have started the moment Lids retired. I would have personally been fine trading Datsyuk if he had been ok with it.

 

[Reddwit]

I find it funny to think back on the argument against the rebuild that they didn't want to go into the new arena with a crappy team.

Well, they clearly didn't. They wouldn't have touched the Nielsen offering if they didn't think that would help them compete.

That's what pisses me off so much about this season. Not only were Holland and co. somehow dumb enough to think that a Filppula replica would save this sinking ship, but someone else in the organization thought it was necessary to even go for it.

Hello! You have an historical arena giving it the last go-around. Then you have the hockey world's premiere venue opening up. You have 2 seasons back-to-back where you can spin your entire marketing campaign around the venue and not the team, allowing them to rebuild and bounce back once the novelty of the new arena wears off.

 

[jkutswings]

Well, they clearly didn't. They wouldn't have touched the Nielsen offering if they didn't think that would help them compete.

That's what pisses me off so much about this season. Not only were Holland and co. somehow dumb enough to think that a Filppula replica would save this sinking ship, but someone else in the organization thought it was necessary to even go for it.

Hello! You have an historical arena giving it the last go-around. Then you have the hockey world's premiere venue opening up. You have 2 seasons back-to-back where you can spin your entire marketing campaign around the venue and not the team, allowing them to rebuild and bounce back once the novelty of the new arena wears off.

I'm right there with you. But just like so many other topics, there are those who feel just the opposite, and want to avoid a bad team during this particular era at all costs.

Either way, here we are. Let's hope for great draft results.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not only were Holland and co. somehow dumb enough to think that a Filppula replica would save this sinking ship

Why must everything be so binary? There are gray areas in between "saving the sinking ship" and "completely unnecessary". Team is heading for a top 3 pick. Take that pick this year and probably next (assuming Blashill stays), then we start hopefully seeing Larkin+Mantha+Hronek/Saarijarvi/Cholo+Mrazek+Top 3 2017 pick+top 3 2018 pick making this team better, but they'll need some support. Nielsen/Abby/Helm/Dekeyser/Glendening/Nyquist is a solid support group.

 

[jkutswings]

I agree they'll need support.
I agree that players like Helm and Abdelkader are good support players.

But had they been signed to more prudent contracts, you could have had them, plus either additional/better support players, or additional resources to acquire additional/better support players.