Post-Game Talk: It’s never been more over

[PensPlz]

All Coaches Are Bylsma

Bylsma was a better coach than Sullivan.

Fight me.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

Tuck em in

 

[vodeni]

I don't think anyone lucks into back to back cups. There's a lot of whitewashing about Sullivan right now because everyone hates him and wants him gone and I get that, but the guy was instrumental in those two cups and I'm not personally a believer that it was all secretly Rick Tocchet or luck or whatever conspiracy theories people want to peddle. Obviously there is an element of luck in winning the cup but to win two back to back you must be doing something right.

Regardless though it doesn't matter if he was Scotty Bowman in those b2bs or Edzo level bad but insanely lucky. It really doesn't. What currently matters is he's had years of failures and it's reached a boiling point where the Pens need to figure out whether they still intend to contend or whether it's time to start tearing things down. And step one in that is making a decision on the coach.

100%

 

[Phil68]

Honestly i am starting to think it was Rick Tocchet that truly coached the pens to the back to back cups.

 

[vodeni]

last night HCMS presser was very much indicative, he looks stuck, no ideas how to turn this around, "everything" they tried does not seem to be working, he said they made numerous adjustments (I don't see them, same PP, same zone exits, entries, same Carter trust and bunch of awful players trust that they will someohow turn this around) so he is not able to"set us up for success" get to have players to be "at their best", and any other cliche thrown out there. Like @Pancakes mentioned earlier....you did great...Thank you for your service...and see you later....how much worse this can go with the same shit going on...He paralyzed everyone with his bullshit...Himself, players, management media...they are spitting same phrases, same delusional comments

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Rust and Rakell's deals are every bit as bad as Graves' contract.

Big ole disagree from me on this sentence. Rust took a hell of a paycut. Rakell took a fair value contract.

edit: I see @Gurglesons has already touched on this

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

All Coaches Are Bylsma

Seriously.

I'm at the point of frustration now where I'm starting to look back into Sullivan's tenure and be like "but was he a great coach REALLY?" Despite my negativity towards him the last couple of seasons or so I always thought very highly of him and put him several echelons above the like of Disco Dan. Not so sure, now. You take away the B2B (yes yes... granted that's a HUGE thing to just take away) and his track record as a coach (both head coach and assistant) kinda blows.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I've been this board's biggest Sullivan supporter and even I think it is evident that this team is playing a style and scheme that its players can't execute properly. Nowhere is that more evident than the power play.

I think the players deserve some blame, but the coaching staff deserves more.

The team looks directionless and stale.

There was this sequence engrained in my mind by Max Talbot at the tail end of Bylsma coaching...
Max was beside the net with a defender on his back, and he was trying to keep his balance while protecting the puck (ie. grinding). At one point the defender fell back, and it gave Max about 2 seconds. Instead of him moving with the puck, he stood there confused waiting for the defender to come back, which he did, so he could go back to grinding.

The team was so entrenched in playing a certain way that they didn't know how to do otherwise, and then look confused why the results are the same.

This is what I'm seeing now!

 

[pistolpete11]

Seriously.

I'm at the point of frustration now where I'm starting to look back into Sullivan's tenure and be like "but was he a great coach REALLY?" Despite my negativity towards him the last couple of seasons or so I always thought very highly of him and put him several echelons above the like of Disco Dan. Not so sure, now. You take away the B2B (yes yes... granted that's a HUGE thing to just take away) and his track record as a coach (both head coach and assistant) kinda blows.

I think people (myself included) get caught up in good coach vs. bad coach. You have your outliers, but I think the majority of coaches are just adequate. They come in different flavors, shapes, and sizes and the trick is finding what your team needs at any given time. Sully was the right guy in 2016. He's not the right guy in 2024 (or since 2020).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I do not agree that Sullivan is as objectively dumb as Bylsma was. But when Sullivan's ego is so massive that it allows him to become spitefully stubborn (through years of positive reinforcement from fans, media, and his colleagues), the end result is the same so it doesn't *really* matter.

Both terrible coaches who lucked into inheriting very motivated players who were just happy to be out from under the stifling coaching of the previous guy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think people (myself included) get caught up in good coach vs. bad coach. You have your outliers, but I think the majority of coaches are just adequate. They come in different flavors, shapes, and sizes and the trick is finding what your team needs at any given time. Sully was the right guy in 2016. He's not the right guy in 2024 (or since 2020).

100% agreed.

NHL coaching and it's impact are overstated. Yes... I said what I said. Yes... I know it seems like I complain about Mike Sullivan professionally. But it's true. We overstate their contributions on both sides of success. It's just that when they get into stale territory and everyone gets comfy they are no longer providing that edge... the stick on the other end of the carrot... and become a liability.

One way or the other they are hired to be fired. It's a hard and fast rule for a reason. The Penguins didn't discover some unicorn. Even guys like Bowman or Herbie weren't immune. And what is a guy like Mike Sullivan compared to them?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

100% agreed.

NHL coaching and it's impact are overstated. Yes... I said what I said. Yes... I know it seems like I complain about Mike Sullivan professionally. But it's true. We overstate their contributions on both sides of success. It's just that when they get into stale territory and everyone gets comfy they are no longer providing that edge... the stick on the other end of the carrot... and become a liability.

One way or the other they are hired to be fired. It's a hard and fast rule for a reason. The Penguins didn't discover some unicorn. Even guys like Bowman or Herbie weren't immune. And what is a guy like Mike Sullivan compared to them?

Agreed. The best coaches are just babysitters, managing the egos of their players and letting them play to their strengths. The worst coaches try to put their mark on the games as much as the guys on the ice, and it very, very rarely ever works out positively for their team.

You can't coach a terrible team up to a Cup, but you can absolutely torpedo a team's chances by overplaying a JJ-Schultz pairing all series, and in important situations. Just for a completely non-realistic hypothetical, cuz who would do that?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Agreed. The best coaches are just babysitters, managing the egos of their players and letting them play to their strengths. The worst coaches try to put their make on the games as much as the guys on the ice, and it very, very rarely ever works out positively for their team.

You can't coach a terrible team up to a Cup, but you can absolutely torpedo a team's chances by overplaying a JJ-Schultz pairing all series, and in important situations. Just for a completely non-realistic hypothetical, cuz who would do that?

Once ego, nostalgia and lack of inertia creep into a coach's day-to-day it's over. I think that's why we see a lot of guys find some success and then promptly turn into pumpkins. They think they got it all figured out and that by golly they general'd these men to victory once a certain way and that's the only RIGHT way, now.

 

[LOGiK]

I think the legacy tour for the Core and Sully is going really great.

Fans will just stand and applaud in appreciation for 2-4 years. After 4 years of doing nothing. That is definitely how sports fandom works or at least should if people could only understand that players playing for 1 team is the pinnacle.

That entire arena should be chanting 'good bye sullivan' much like they did a decade ago when bylsma reached expiration....
Why are they not doing that now? Aren't they watching this or have they been so pacified to the point that this crap is acceptable?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Once ego, nostalgia and lack of inertia creep into a coach's day-to-day it's over. I think that's why we see a lot of guys find some success and then promptly turn into pumpkins. They think they got it all figured out and that by golly they general'd these men to victory once a certain way and that's the only RIGHT way, now.

I think a lotta guys revert to the "play 'em to a draw, zero event hockey" too because it's safe as well. Which would make sense for guys hoping to keep their job security, but Sullivan's basically been verbally fellated every step of the way since he lucked into a job with a team that had Sid, Geno, Kessel, Hornqvist, Letang, Fleury and Murray in their primes and with a chip on their shoulder to boot.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That entire arena should be chanting 'good bye sullivan' much like they did a decade ago when bylsma reached expiration....
Why are they not doing that now? Aren't they watching this or have they been so pacified to the point that this crap is acceptable?

Most Penguins fans who attend games are very casual. Same with the ones you see on most social media platforms. Or like... Steelers fans that sometimes moonlight as Penguins fans. Nothing wrong with that... need fans any way they come. But they aren't the type to be super invested and heaven knows they aren't reading any articles to tell them what to think about Sullivan because no one around here writes them.

So they start "fire Canada" chants, instead.

I think a lotta guys revert to the "play 'em to a draw, zero event hockey" too because it's safe as well. Which would make sense for guys hoping to keep their job security, but Sullivan's basically been verbally fellated every step of the way since he lucked into a job with a team that had Sid, Geno, Kessel, Hornqvist, Letang, Fleury and Murray in their primes and with a chip on their shoulder to boot.

Yeah. This style of hockey is a modern day NHL coach's reflex. Which is just... terrific. Great product to watch for sure.

 

[Gurglesons]

me when I see the Penguins haven't changed anything tonight.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You gotta warn people before you post something like that, man. f***.

He and Frank "Reverse Benjamin Button" Saravalli really ought to get together and swap stories of the shit they've seen to make them both look like they are cobbled together out of overstuffed sandwich bags full of rotten cottage cheese and old hot dogs.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Most Penguins fans who attend games are very casual. Same with the ones you see on most social media platforms. Or like... Steelers fans that sometimes moonlight as Penguins fans. Nothing wrong with that... need fans any way they come. But they aren't the type to be super invested and heaven knows they aren't reading any articles to tell them what to think about Sullivan because no one around here writes them.

So they start "fire Canada" chants, instead.



Yeah. This style of hockey is a modern day NHL coach's reflex. Which is just... terrific. Great product to watch for sure.

Hey man, why can't this sport climb out of niche status? Any ideas?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Hey man, why can't this sport climb out of niche status? Any ideas?

Not a clue man... NOT. A. CLUE.

Maybe something to do with actively shitting on your potential viewing audience, crooked officiating, and a bunch of egos attached to a gaggle of thrice-failed knuckle-draggers who traded their sticks for suits might have something to do with it. But I'm kinda dumb so I dunno.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Not a clue man... NOT. A. CLUE.

Maybe something to do with actively shitting on your potential viewing audience, crooked officiating, and a bunch of egos attached to a gaggle of thrice-failed knuckle-draggers who traded their sticks for suits might have something to do with it. But I'm kinda dumb so I dunno.

Horrific marketing, permanent caveman brain (hey if you take a slapshot at an EN or score a Michigan goal, be prepared to ANSWER THE BELL BAYBEEEEE), a constant chipping away at whatever excitement or flow there may be in the game at any given moment, etc. etc.

It's a real mystery. Somebody out there is gonna solve the puzzle one day and make a lotta money. For Jeremy Jacobs, James Dolan, MLSE, and FSG.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Horrific marketing, permanent caveman brain (hey if you take a slapshot at an EN or score a Michigan goal, be prepared to ANSWER THE BELL BAYBEEEEE), a constant chipping away at whatever excitement or flow there may be in the game at any given moment, etc. etc.

It's a real mystery. Somebody out there is gonna solve the puzzle one day and make a lotta money. For Jeremy Jacobs, James Dolan, MLSE, and FSG.

Hey but at least now we have ADVANCED STATISTICS to sink our teeth into!

Hooray!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hey but at least now we have ADVANCED STATISTICS to sink our teeth into!

Hooray!

I love hearing about how ZAR is on the same level as guys like Bergeron and Stone, or how McCann's G/60 is equal to guys like McDavid, Draisaitl, and Pasta! Wow!

 

[pistolpete11]

100% agreed.

NHL coaching and it's impact are overstated. Yes... I said what I said. Yes... I know it seems like I complain about Mike Sullivan professionally. But it's true. We overstate their contributions on both sides of success. It's just that when they get into stale territory and everyone gets comfy they are no longer providing that edge... the stick on the other end of the carrot... and become a liability.

One way or the other they are hired to be fired. It's a hard and fast rule for a reason. The Penguins didn't discover some unicorn. Even guys like Bowman or Herbie weren't immune. And what is a guy like Mike Sullivan compared to them?

Coaching doesn't matter as much in the NHL compared to the NFL, but it still matters. How much is X's and O's and how much is just getting stale/comfortable is anybody's guess.

But I would say preaching a fast, skilled system with a bunch of old, slow, and/or grinders probably isn't the smartest coaching decision.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Thanks to everyone who kept giving Sullivan rope. Everyone who carried his water. You made this special moment happen.