Value of: Islander's 11th + 12th overall to Montreal

Discussion in 'Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk' started by Mackiaveli, Jun 14, 2018.

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  1. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    What type of return would New York be looking for?

    Would Patches + Chicago 2nd + Montreal 2nd + Lindgren + Petry for the picks and a cap dump (Ladd or Boychuk, you can choose) be enough?

    What else would you want added?

    Both picks would allow the Habs to draft Zadina at 3, and then two of Veleno/Kotkaniemi/Bouchard/Wahlstrom/Smith at 11 and 12

    Islanders bolster their Tavares pitch by adding pieces to win now. Patches is still an elite goal scoring winger and adding offensive depth never hurts. Petry is a phenomenal second pairing guy and helps shore up their back end. Picks and Lindgren more or less to balance out.
     
  2. BelovedIsles

    BelovedIsles Registered User

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    If we are trading both firsts, which I would not be adverse to, it would be in a package for a number 1 D man; eg (extended) Karlsson.
     
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  3. Las Llamas

    Las Llamas Go Flames Go!

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    The Isles can do better.
     
  4. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    Almost certain the only 1D available right now is E.K, and rumour has it OTT wants to package him with Bobby Ryan, which I don't think New York could manage.

    Would have to be a 3-way trade, but it would be relatively interesting
     
  5. CanadianSharks

    CanadianSharks Registered User

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    Why would the Habs do this?

    Pacioretty is worth a good bit more than either pick. Petry + two 2nds + Lindgren is absolutely worth a top 15ish pick.
     
  6. BelovedIsles

    BelovedIsles Registered User

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    Rumors of Subban. But yes, Karlsson is the only substantiated 1D available.

    So the only way Ott trades EK is if Ryan is included? I’d suspect if Murray had an offer he couldn’t pass up, Ryan would be negotiable.
     
  7. CodeE

    CodeE step on snek

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    What type of return would the Islanders be looking for?

    3rd overall + 2019 1st

    As far as your collection of pieces Montreal no longer needs anymore, no thanks. Try and pawn the package onto someone else for their top picks.
     
  8. boredmale

    boredmale Registered User Sponsor

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    No use for another LW(especially if rumors are true we might have a shot at Kovalchuk) unless you guys want to eat Ladd's contract(even then I wouldn't trade both picks for Pacioretty, I would have much more interest in Petry)
     
  9. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    Not liking the package, or finding the value off is fine --- but if you're going to contribute to a thread, at least try and offer some sort of logical response

    Those picks combined in terms of numerical value as per most statistic consulting firms are worth slightly more than 3rd overall alone; to suggest the Habs throw in a 2019 1st which could be another lottery pick is just absolutely absurd and stupid. If you don't have anything constructive to give to the conversation, feel free to just not add anything at all.

    Pretty sure two 2nd round picks, one of the League's premiere goal scorers, and one of the best 2nd pairing defencemen in the NHL is not "pieces Montreal no longer needs" --- the team just needs to consider retooling and building a younger group, and moving your valuable aged assets to a contending team is the best way to do so.

    Could move them independently surely, but outside of Chicago at 8 and Edmonton at 10, there are no teams that will likely be willing to ship their pick out before Dallas at 13, and if the Habs want Kotkaniemi, they need to bring in a top 10 pick.

    Alternatively, the option would be send him to Florida for 15th overall + and then move three seconds Petry, Lindgren and Byron to Edmonton for their 10th and a cap dump --- draft Kotkaniemi and Kupari; but not sure how I feel about that ordeal.


    I think it could be done without taking Ryan but you'd really be paying a premium because that is really the only way they can get rid of his contract.

    11th overall + 12th overall + Ho Sang + Toews + Bellows for Karlsson type situation, which I'm not sure is really all that worth it
     
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  10. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    Fair.

    Petry + Toronto's 2nd + Washington's 2nd for 10th and Boychuk? Do we add a bit? You get the cap space from moving Boychuk and you still get two 2nd rounders for quantity.
     
  11. CodeE

    CodeE step on snek

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    It's another thread where Montreal fans overvalue Montreal assets and massively undervalue everyone else's.

    Jeff Petry, 2nd pairing veteran defenseman making 5.5 x 3 is "one of the best", "a phenomenal second pairing guy".

    Johnny Boychuk, 2nd pairing veteran defenseman making 6 x 4 is "a cap dump" who you're happy to take from our team, for a price.

    When you post this:

    We see the value in two of Veleno/Kotkaniemi/Bouchard/Wahlstrom/Smith at 11 and 12 as well. So if we're trading either of these picks, we're going to trade them for players we need, not players Montreal has decided they want to give up. You can't announce how excited you are to get our two picks and select two of these players and then act shocked when we'd rather retain them instead of handing them over and giving such a massive boost to the Montreal rebuild.

    That doesn't mean a LW.

    That doesn't mean a project goalie stuck behind Price.

    That doesn't mean Jeff Petry no matter how much you want me to believe "Petry >>>>>>>>>> Boychuk" and is a massive upgrade for the Islanders.

    That means assets Montreal doesn't have, or isn't willing to trade.
     
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  12. BelovedIsles

    BelovedIsles Registered User

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    I think it would take less than that; Ottawa doesn’t have much leverage. I’ve proposed both 1sts and JHS for an extended EK, may be willing to add a 2nd.

    That said, if LL chooses quantity over quality, I surmise NYI would be interested in Petry. We are in dire need of an upgrade on D. 2nd and 3rd for Petry?
     
  13. boredmale

    boredmale Registered User Sponsor

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    I am no fan of Boychuk's contract but if we trade Boychuk we still have the issue we are short 1 defenseman. Petry for Boychuk is a lateral move for the most part beyond that. Basically the hope with Boychuk is we have compliance buyouts in a few years then we can buy him out, till then he serves a purpose.

    Now Petry + 2nd for 12th and Ladd I might think about
     
  14. Klaus3154

    Klaus3154 Registered User

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    Cannot see the Islanders trading both their first rounders withou5 addressing the goaltender situation unless it is for EK with an extended contract.
    Since that keeps coming up in this thread can the Islanders fit an extended EK plus sign Tavares while improving their goaltending?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  15. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    Oh? I didn't realize I was doing either of those things, my mistake.

    30 year old, who put up 42 points last year with a rookie (Mete) as his best partner. Followed by Karl Alzner and Jordie Benn, who are bottom pairing (at best) players. 42 points was good for 24th amongst all defencemen (19th in goals), ahead of your own Nick Leddy (who scored less goals but the same amount of points)

    Petry had as many, or more points than OEL, Provorov, Ristolainen, Ekblad, Giordano, Werenski, Ellis, Fowler and McAvoy.

    Petry also had one of the highest PK minutes per game of said top scoring D-men, and half of his points came from the PP

    So what I get from this, is that Petry (30) is an all-purpose defenceman on a sweetheart contract, who scores like a top pairing defenceman, can quarterback a powerplay, and can kill penalties.

    Boychuk isn't coming "at a price" --- he's coming over to balance the cap for your team because that is what you do when you make trades. Boychuk is in every way a worse player than Jeff Petry, and is on a worse contract. Boychuk also hasn't played a full season ever in his NHL career (with only 194 games in the past three seasons) whereas Petry has played 162 games in the past two seasons alone. You are getting a superior player, who is healthier, and can contribute on both ends of the ice at a cheaper price --- but sure, keep telling yourself that I'm "overvaluing" our assets.

    Your team needs goaltending (Grubauer)

    Your team needs defensive depth (Petry +)

    Your team needs wingers who can contribute offensively (Patches)

    Obviously the kids that will be drafted at 11/12 have immense value, but you won't get to reap the benefits of it for several years (2-4) --- you need players that can help you win NOW, especially when your team is trying to pitch its franchise player to re-up for another 8 years. If Tavares leaves, your team obviously needs to keep those picks because the rebuild starts the second Tavares signs elsewhere. The move isn't about vacuum value, it's about how it translates in the real world.

    Patches is a better goal scorer than any player on your entire roster on a per game basis, and in the last five years Patches has two less goals than Tavares, even despite having an awful 17 goal campaign this year. If you put Patches on Tavares' wing, you're getting 40 goals or more from him, and he would more than likely be your leading goal scorer.

    I mean, your goalie this year was Jaroslav, but alright.

    Read stats above. I don't need you to believe it for it to be true.
     
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  16. CodeE

    CodeE step on snek

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    Dude, all this translates to is hype hype hype Montreal players, trash trash trash Islander players.

    You're the one who started the thread. You're the one who proposed the trade. You're also the one who seems very hesitant to trade 3rd overall or 2019 1st - god forbid anyone ask you to trade your high 1st round picks. No, it's us that have to give you not one - but two high first round picks.

    Used car salesmen don't ever trash the cars they're trying to pawn off to rubes, right? This is just what you need, this is such a perfect fit, oh the pricetag might be a little high but this convertible is absolutely the car you need to purchase. That raggedy old piece of junk you drove to the car lot with? Just awful, drive that into a ditch and get yourself the upgrade you deserve!

    That's what it feels like listening to you hype Petry and trash Boychuk. We know why you want to make the trade. You're not doing this as a favor for us, you're doing this so Montreal cashes out on three top 12 picks all the while giving up nothing they're really gonna miss. No speeches about how Pacioretty is better than every player on our roster at this or that is going to change that.

    If you want our 1st rounders, give us something we want. Don't hand us something and say "take it you need it".
     
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  17. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    There is no "translation" going on, I am presenting you with unequivocal facts as to why Petry and Pacioretty would be massive upgrades over literally everything currently on your team. If you are too blind or emotional to see that, then god speed but please stop responding to my post.

    Not at all hesitant to do either, but it makes little sense to trade either our 3rd overall or a potential lottery pick, for 11th/12th overall picks --- just use your brain (based on your inability to process the Petry/Pacioretty value I don't know if you can do that but try for me)

    Yes.
    Team 1 (Montreal) gets picks that translate to young players to build towards the future.
    Team 2 (Islanders) get players for said picks, that contribute today and for the next several years, so that the Islanders can attempt to resign their captain and franchise player, and compete for a cup


    Comparing a used car salesman pitching **** cars to people like luxury vehicles to explaining to you why there is value in trading for the 10th best goal scorer over the past 5 years (adjusting for games played he is 5th, even despite the terrible 17 goal season he just had) and the 24th highest scoring defenceman last season is one of the more idiotic things I've read on these boards, so kudos to you.


    Stats don't lie, friend.

    So that we can draft two young players for a rebuild.

    Erm. No, a trade is an equal exchange of goods (assets) --- it isn't meant to be a favour. Montreal could draft two busts with your picks, and the Islanders could go on to win a cup with Patches and Petry, so the actual determined value of the trade would be undecided for many years. Just because players are expendable because we are rebuilding, doesn't mean they are invaluable --- The reason the Islanders would be a suitable partner for us is because the picks you happen to have are where good ole Kotkaniemi is likely to fall. There are probably 20 teams around the league that would take Petry and Patches in a heartbeat, but it has to do with whether or not they have assets the Canadiens want.

    He scores goals better than anyone not named Tavares on your team. That's just a fact. You need to score goals to win games, and to make it to the playoffs. Tavares wants to see the team around him get better, or he's going to leave; it's not a hard concept to wrap your brain around.

    What exactly do you want? Our more valuable picks? What do we get out of that deal, exactly?
     
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  18. draft day

    draft day Registered User

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    Not interested in giving up an elite prospect and the 2019 1st which should be a shot at an elite C for a couple of average picks at best. Keep them Rather have the 3rd OA.
     
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  19. DaPhazz

    DaPhazz Registered User

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    wait..
    Troll , serious or :confused:?
     
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  20. draft day

    draft day Registered User

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    Ya sure bud. You want the 3rd overall + 2019 1st for your 2018 11thOA and 12th OA and we are the one over-rating our assets and undervalue everyone else's.:facepalm:
     
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  21. Mackiaveli

    Mackiaveli Registered User

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    only other way I see it working:

    Petry + Chicago 2nd + Toronto 2nd to Edmonton for 10th overall (cap dump if necessary)

    and

    Pacioretty to Florida for 15th overall + Bjugstad

    and

    Trade down with Arizona - 5th overall + Arizona 2nd for 3rd overall + Washington 2nd + Edmonton 5th

    Draft Hughes, Kotkaniemi and Veleno (Don't see him going before 10, Islanders have Tavares/Barzal, Dallas likely drafts Wilde or Merkley for the RD, Philly does not need another C) or Wilde.

    Gives us a proper 2C, two solid LD prospects (Mete/Hughes) a solid RD prospect (Juulsen) a solid C prospect (Kotkaniemi) and another C or RD prospect (Veleno or Wilde) as well as two seconds to draft more forwards.

    Team doesn't get any notable free agents and sucks for one more year, and hopes to hit the lotto on Jack Hughes to bring the brothers together.

    Drouin/Galchenyuk/Gallagher/Scherbak/Lehkonen as core wingers
    Kotkaniemi/Hughes as centers
    Mete/Juulsen/Hughes/Wilde as D-Men
     
  22. CodeE

    CodeE step on snek

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    There's an internet meme that's pretty famous - Skinner from The Simpsons going "Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong!"

    We tell you guys time and time again. Price & Weber are signed too long for too much money, both good players but their contracts easily bring them into negative value territory. Pacioretty's game took a hit in production this year, plus he's a UFA in one year looking for a big payday to stick around or leave. Jeff Petry is not the game changing defenseman you claim he is, and is simply not needed with Boychuk & Pulock on the right.

    The problem is simple, the same problem from the days of Ryder+Halak+2nd:

    1. You ask other teams to give you valuable future assets for some collection of these assets (plus Lindgren who is always in the deal no matter what).
    2. Other team - no matter who it Islanders or anyone else - says no thanks, we'll keep our futures we're not all that interested
    3. You guys go crazy when the other team refuses to play along with your valuation of Habs veterans

    Now we've arrived here. With personal attacks about what an idiot I am. But I will answer this:

    That's simple. You have metaphorically knocked on the Islander's shop door, and asked for not one, but two first round picks in the upcoming draft. From a team who, all season long, has been saying how much better you guys are than us as a destination for Tavares, how we don't have the pieces to compete and he's out the door. How Montreal is the elite reward for all those miserable years with the Islanders. You offer a solution: Pacioretty+++. To give you three 1st round picks in the top 12, plus the cap space to give Tavares $14M or whatever.

    It's up to the person in the shop to gauge the value of the wanted item, not the person on the street. The person does not walk into the shop and begin barking orders about how much this or that costs. When the Islanders come knocking for Pacioretty (and I wouldn't hold my breath), then the tables will turn and you'll get to set what you believe is appropriate value to part with what the Islanders want. As it currently goes, you once again have to deal with #2 - no thanks, we'll keep our futures we're not all that interested.
     
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  23. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

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    Take MaxPac out because the isles do not need a scoring winger and have their own top forwards who will be looking for a raise (Barzal, Eberle,Lee).

    Not interested in giving up 2 top 12 picks to land Petry, Lindgren and 2nd rounders.
     
  24. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

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    Boychuk is still a solid top 4,needed on LI.

    So, you are not doing the nyi a favor by replacing Boychuk with Petry.
    And not interested in moving 11th or 12th overall to land 2 extra 2nd rounders.
     
  25. Eddy Punch Clock

    Eddy Punch Clock Jack Adams 2028

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    Giving up assets like that, the Islanders absolutely need to wind up with true starter in net as well.
     

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