Is there any way Dorion can survive within the 'new' Sens organization?

[Tuna99]

We're looking at three draft classes in a row with next to nothing to show from them. There is no way that doesn't hurt down the road.

The pipeline isn't dry yet, but after guys like Greig, Ostapchuk and Kleven, who are all knocking on the door, there is basically nothing coming after them. Every team in the league has their own versions of Donovan or Peterson - the later round promising longshots.

You have a legit 2nd, 3rd line players. A 2A goalie and some depth players that’s pretty fair.

Two 1st round draft choices this year.

Anyways, we long ever going to talk about that super fast winger with jam who was improving and looking like a perfect depth player

 

[Senator Stanley]

You have a legit 2nd, 3rd line players. A 2A goalie and some depth players that’s pretty fair.

Two 1st round draft choices this year.

Anyways, we long ever going to talk about that super fast winter with jam who was improving and looking like a perfect depth player

The strength of our prospect pool is players who are very close to making it (or not). Some will make it in the next season or two, and the rest probably exit the organization.

What we lack is anything notable coming after them, because we basically didn't draft in 2022 and 2023, and 2021 was 2021.

 

[Icelevel]

Love him or hate him it’s time to get some fresh eyes and minds in there.
Pierre actually brought it together in the end and gave us a good core to progress with. Doesn’t erase all the bs we went through with him. But at least we got something good going forward and maybe he can get a job somewhere else now.

 

[DrEasy]

I wonder how Dorion is explaining the current situation to Andlauer.

Andlauer: so let me get this straight Pierre: we have to get rid of Joseph's contract to be able to sign Pinto. You had Nick Paul, a good player, and you traded him for Joseph who is a far worse player, and gave him the contract you refused to give to Paul. And, let me see, there is no salary room because you had to buy out DelZotto and White, who were given crazy unreasonable contracts. And because nobody wants Joseph, you want to trade Shane Pinto who is young and upcoming, and has 5 more years of control, instead of Kubalik who is a UFA in 1 year. Can you explain why Gustavson and DeMelo, good players, were given away for nothing? And we gave up Kevin Korchinski for 1 season of DeBrincat? And Tyler Boucher, rated 29th, was drafted 10th overall, and is always hurt and merely an above-average OHL player? Just one moment; Madge, get me Steve Staios on line 1.

"Can't win them all!"

 

[Big Muddy]

Thats fair, but I suspect that even during our better years financially, it was still obvious that it was a handicapped budget operation not really capable of being a contender to players around the league.

Well from 1998 to 2015 attendance was over 17,000 per game. We were typically (often) a lower budget (in the lower percentile range) team from the perspective total player salaries for sure. But, come deadline, we were able to get some players. Bondra & Smolinski are 2 names that I can remember as examples. We are and will continue to be smaller market team, but there are other things that could attract some players like having a good team and the city itself. I guess it boils down to how you look at it and I try to be a glass half full type here I suppose.

 

[Cosmix]

"Can't win them all!"

Can't win meaningless games so we can play meaningful games!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Well from 1998 to 2015 attendance was over 17,000 per game. We were typically (often) a lower budget (in the lower percentile range) team from the perspective total player salaries for sure. But, come deadline, we were able to get some players (Bondra & Smolinski are 2 names that I can remember as examples). We are going to be smaller market team, but there are other things that could attract some players like having a good team and the city itself. I guess it boils down to how you look at it and I try to be a glass half full type here I suppose.

Ya attendance was fine a lot of years, but I mean the spending on the franchise. It was not a cap spending team a lot of years and was very lean in other ways too. I think players around the league would take notice of that sort of thing and see it as a franchise not as serious about winning. Their situation in the modern cap era basically made it impossible to ever be a perennial contender. Just look at the Karlsson years. How can you say winning is the priority when you're spending well below the cap, giving up assets left and right to save cash, and have obvious holes in the lineup?

I don't really know how I could ever prove such a thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed the players around the league would take note of the things that were obvious to us too. Doesn't mean they didn't still have a pool of players willing and in need of jobs, or that the franchise was just giving up, I just don't think you could take them seriously as a contending franchise with the financial obstacles they faced and players would have been aware of it. Of course as fans we wanted to believe as much as any other fan, but realistically, we were handicapped.

 

[Silencio]

Well from 1998 to 2015 attendance was over 17,000 per game. We were typically (often) a lower budget (in the lower percentile range) team from the perspective total player salaries for sure. But, come deadline, we were able to get some players. Bondra & Smolinski are 2 names that I can remember as examples.

Don't forget the earth shattering Tyler Arnason deadline deal

 

[Big Muddy]

Ya attendance was fine a lot of years, but I mean the spending on the franchise. It was not a cap spending team a lot of years and was very lean in other ways too. I think players around the league would take notice of that sort of thing and see it as a franchise not as serious about winning. Their situation in the modern cap era basically made it impossible to ever be a perennial contender. Just look at the Karlsson years. How can you say winning is the priority when you're spending well below the cap, giving up assets left and right to save cash, and have obvious holes in the lineup?

I don't really know how I could ever prove such a thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed the players around the league would take note of the things that were obvious to us too. Doesn't mean they didn't still have a pool of players willing and in need of jobs, or that the franchise was just giving up, I just don't think you could take them seriously as a contending franchise with the financial obstacles they faced and players would have been aware of it.

It's possible our timelines aren't aligning as well. Maybe you're thinking Karlsson era timeline and afterwards, whereas I'm going back further (1998 to 2007/2010). There was a long stretch where we were one of the top teams and always made the playoffs. Anyhow, not that important I suppose. Like I said, yes we haven't typically been a top spending team (or close), but just looking at other aspects.

 

[DrEasy]

Can't win meaningless games so we can play meaningful games!

Having low expectations is the key to happiness!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's possible our timelines aren't aligning as well. Maybe you're thinking Karlsson era timeline and afterwards, whereas I'm going back further (1998 to 2007/2010). There was a long stretch where we were one of the top teams and always made the playoffs. Anyhow, not that important I suppose. Like I said, yes we haven't typically been a top spending team (or close), but just looking at other aspects.

I think you're right. I think the problems in that area specifically started later than that and I'm more referring to basically Karlsson's tenure with the team over the period prior.

 

[Hale The Villain]

We're looking at three draft classes in a row with next to nothing to show from them. There is no way that doesn't hurt down the road.

The pipeline isn't dry yet, but after guys like Greig, Ostapchuk and Kleven, who are all knocking on the door, there is basically nothing coming after them. Every team in the league has their own versions of Donovan or Peterson - the later round promising longshots.

Trading away a bunch of 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks in the last couple years for immediate help wouldn't have hurt so much had we actually gotten what we should have for most of our best players during the rebuild:

Stone, Duchene, Zibanejad, Hoffman and Dzingel - three 1st line forwards and two 2nd liners, all traded in their mid-late 20s, and all we have to show for it is:

Brannstrom, Sokolov, Thomson, JBD and Tychonick

Was little to no weaponization of our cap space to acquire assets during the rebuild either. Had Dorion not bungled so many trades and utilized our cap space to acquire picks instead of wasting that space (and picks), we could have easily traded that amount of futures away and thought nothing of it, but the pool is stretched incredibly thin already and we haven't even made the playoffs yet.

People can say that's all in the past or it doesn't matter since the team looks poised to potentially make the playoffs, but you'd have to be a fool to think otherwise.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Trading away a bunch of 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks in the last couple years for immediate help wouldn't have hurt so much had we actually gotten what we should have for most of our best players during the rebuild:

Stone, Duchene, Zibanejad, Hoffman and Dzingel - three 1st line forwards and two 2nd liners, all traded in their mid-late 20s, and all we have to show for it is:

Brannstrom, Sokolov, Thomson, JBD and Tychonick

Was little to no weaponization of our cap space to acquire assets during the rebuild either. Had Dorion not bungled so many trades and utilized our cap space to acquire picks instead of wasting that space (and picks), we could have easily traded that amount of futures away and thought nothing of it, but the pool is stretched incredibly thin already and we haven't even made the playoffs yet.

People can say that's all in the past or it doesn't matter since the team looks poised to potentially make the playoffs, but you'd have to be a fool to think otherwise.

Is that really it? Yeesh. That's ugly.

2 bottom pairing dmen, maybe not even on a good team, a bust, and 2 guys that might get a cup of coffee at their peak.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Is that really it? Yeesh. That's ugly.

2 bottom pairing dmen, maybe not even on a good team, a bust, and 2 guys that might get a cup of coffee at their peak.

Yup. The only key players that Dorion dealt during the rebuild that actually turned into anything were Karlsson and Pageau.

Getting what was at the time a mid-1st and a 2nd for Pageau was great value and one of his best trades.

People will disagree about how much luck played a role in the Karlsson return, particularly winning the lottery and getting Stutzle, but Norris proved to be a great centerpiece, even if he looked like a middle 6er in the making at the time.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yup. The only key players that Dorion dealt during the rebuild that actually turned into anything were Karlsson and Pageau.

Getting what was what was at the time a mid-1st and a 2nd for Pageau was great value and one of his best trades.

People will disagree about how much luck played a role in the Karlsson return, particularly winning the lottery and getting Stutzle, but Norris proved to be a great centerpiece, even if he looked like a middle 6er in the making at the time.

Ya that's the sort of thing where I think both sides end up with legitimacy to their argument.

Does the roster today look pretty good? Ya, sure, that's hard to argue.

Could the organization still be in a lot better spot than they are assets wise? Ya, also very hard to argue.

Not being able to fit Pinto atm because of dead cap is a pretty prime example of one step forward two steps back.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Ya that's the sort of thing where I think both sides end up with legitimacy to their argument.

Does the roster today look pretty good? Ya, sure, that's hard to argue.

Could the organization still be in a lot better spot than they are assets wise? Ya, also very hard to argue.

Not being able to fit Pinto atm because of dead cap is a pretty prime example of one step forward two steps back.

Don't speak of Pinto being asset mismanagement until the fat lady sings...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Don't speak of Pinto being asset mismanagement until the fat lady sings...

I can agree with that. Hard to see a way out atm that doesn't hurt us, but I'm remaining optimistic.

 

[JD1]

I can agree with that. Hard to see a way out atm that doesn't hurt us, but I'm remaining optimistic.

Of course there isn't a way out without causing a problem

Every team that's over the cap needs to shed salary, and that's usually done by losing something.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Of course there isn't a way out without causing a problem

Every team that's over the cap needs to shed salary, and that's usually done by losing something.

Well ya. Hence the conversation about self inflicted cap wounds acknowledged along side the good things.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Well ya. Hence the conversation about self inflicted cap wounds acknowledged along side the good things.

Every contract and cap issue of every team is self inflicted.

I wonder if our team ever expected to be a cap team when some of these guys were bought out.

Still feels good to have these types of ‘problems’ finally.

 

[Big Muddy]

Don't forget the earth shattering Tyler Arnason deadline deal

Yep, that's a blast from the past that I had forgotten about. There were others as well, many of which I have forgotten as well.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Every contract and cap issue of every team is self inflicted.

I wonder if our team ever expected to be a cap team when some of these guys were bought out.

Still feels good to have these types of ‘problems’ finally.

Ya that's reasonable and I wonder too. Seems like it caught up to them one year sooner than hoped since this should be it for a while.

I felt like I was pretty fair in my original comment. Dorion has a chance to wiggle here and I hope he finds a way that doesn't hurt the teams depth too much. I'm remaining optimistic, but the longer it goes on the more I worry it's not going to be quite as simple as originally thought. Cap space is at such a premium right now.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Ya that's reasonable and I wonder too. Seems like it caught up to them one year sooner than hoped since this should be it for a while.

I felt like I was pretty fair in my original comment. Dorion has a chance to wiggle here and I hope he finds a way that doesn't hurt the teams depth too much. I'm remaining optimistic, but the longer it goes on the more I worry it's not going to be quite as simple as originally thought. Cap space is at such a premium right now.

Well I think what was originally said was that they wanted to see guys at camp before making any moves though, so it makes sense that it hasn’t been resolved because main camp hasn’t even started yet.

I would suggest waiting to see how it unfolds since PD is on a nice little roll of getting the team sorted out but that’s not really realistic.

It really isn’t that complicated in the end though. If Pinto is asking for too much then he gets to sit, cap space or not. I don’t think we’re going to over pay Pinto of all players after the rest of the core have bought into good long term deals. If we are off by a smidgen we can send Jospeh down or trade Branny, or wait and see if an injury solves the problem for us.

I mean even Brady missed camp, other good players in the past have missed camp with us, it’s not that big a deal. We have guys that can step in and replace Pinto until a deal gets done without losing anyone.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Well I think what was originally said was that they wanted to see guys at camp before making any moves though, so it makes sense that it hasn’t been resolved because main camp hasn’t even started yet.

I would suggest waiting to see how it unfolds since PD is on a nice little roll of getting the team sorted out but that’s not really realistic.

It really isn’t that complicated in the end though. If Pinto is asking for too much then he gets to sit, cap space or not. I don’t think we’re going to over pay Pinto of all players after the rest of the core have bought into good long term deals. If we are off by a smidgen we can send Jospeh down or trade Branny, or wait and see if an injury solves the problem for us.

I mean even Brady missed camp, other good players in the past have missed camp with us, it’s not that big a deal. We have guys that can step in and replace Pinto until a deal gets done without losing anyone.

For sure, I'm waiting either way. Just talking different possibilities and what it looks like as of today since that's all we know atm. I still think it served the conversation to identify part of the reasons for the cap crunch, but what's done is done.

I really don't like the idea of him sitting, but if it comes to that, so be it. I'd certainly rather that than that wacko idea of Pinto+Joseph for Laughton lol. There's also potential camp injuries. Certainly unfair to expect him to accept 900k though imo, so I see why it's a tough spot to be in for both parties. They have to free up some to be able to say take it or leave it fairly, but how much is something only they know.

 

[Ice-Tray]

For sure, I'm waiting either way. Just talking different possibilities and what it looks like as of today since that's all we know atm. I still think it served the conversation to identify part of the reasons for the cap crunch, but what's done is done.

I really don't like the idea of him sitting, but if it comes to that, so be it. I'd certainly rather that than that wacko idea of Pinto+Joseph for Laughton lol. There's also potential camp injuries. Certainly unfair to expect him to accept 900k though imo, so I see why it's a tough spot to be in for both parties. They have to free up some to be able to say take it or leave it fairly, but how much is something only they know.

Yeah the trade proposals/rumours have been dreadful!

I agree that sitting him would suck, but at the same time the dollars have to make sense so to speak, and he has very little leverage at the moment with status wise, or really play-wise.

I think a one year deal with an extension waiting in Jan is the best way to go, but I understand why Pinto’s team may want more
immediately.

I hear you on the dead cap space, it’s a bit of a pain, but normal for teams at the cap to have to make decisions that cost somewhere, we just haven’t had the luxury to ever have to care about it for ages!

Pretty wild really.