Post-Game Talk: Is there a game tonight? Oh yass!! (Caps-Pens)

[twabby]

not sure I understand why you have a problem with that. Trotz has been pretty consistant. He puts the two defensemen out til the Caps get possession particularly on the road.

It assures that against the opponents best offensive players the Caps have their best defensemen to get possession and guarantee the OT lasts long enough for them to get possession. Once the Caps get a rush going, Ov jumps on. Makes perfect sense.

Kuzy remains off. I will give him the first 5 games to show something before I start to worry. PP2 looked lost with him as the primary qb. I am looking forward to the return of point per game Kuzy.

I don't really see it working that way, especially with Alzner and Niskanen on the ice to start. 3v3 seems to be about extended possessions with the puck and making offensive plays, neither of which Alzner and Niskanen are particularly great at.

Alzner, for example, strives in a structured system, and by its very nature 3v3 is very unstructured. Even though he's a good skater I'd consider not even putting him out on the ice at all for 3v3 next time. There was a moment last night where he was rushing into the offensive zone with the puck during the 3v3, but instead of regrouping at center ice and maintaining control of the puck while players were changing, he kind of just dumped the puck in and gave possession to the Penguins. Losing possession of the puck at 3v3 is huge, certainly much worse than a dump and change at 5v5.

The moment Washington gets two forwards on the ice they typically dominate the 3v3 because their skill in an unstructured environment can overpower the opponent.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

1st line was brutal. I liked the D pairs. Orlov-Carlson can really skate and I think Schmidt and Orpik worked well together. Tre Kronor were great, and Lars looked good. Caps should have left with 2 points, but them the breaks.

 

[txpd]

I don't really see it working that way, especially with Alzner and Niskanen on the ice to start. 3v3 seems to be about extended possessions with the puck and making offensive plays, neither of which Alzner and Niskanen are particularly great at.

Alzner, for example, strives in a structured system, and by its very nature 3v3 is very unstructured. Even though he's a good skater I'd consider not even putting him out on the ice at all for 3v3 next time. There was a moment last night where he was rushing into the offensive zone with the puck during the 3v3, but instead of regrouping at center ice and maintaining control of the puck while players were changing, he kind of just dumped the puck in and gave possession to the Penguins. Losing possession of the puck at 3v3 is huge, certainly much worse than a dump and change at 5v5.

The moment Washington gets two forwards on the ice they typically dominate the 3v3 because their skill in an unstructured environment can overpower the opponent.

Yes, losing possession in 3v3 is huge. Which is WHY Alzner and Niskanen are out there. If the Caps lose that opening face off, good one on one defense is how you get the puck back. No chance at any of the Caps primary offensive forwards are near as good at coverage as is Alzner. When the Caps get the puck Alzner comes off and Ov comes on

 

[Devil Dancer]

That goal against was 100% on Oshie

Maybe you're right. I didn't see Oshie's ill advised attempt to blindly chip the puck along the first time.

 

[g00n]

I don't really see it working that way, especially with Alzner and Niskanen on the ice to start. 3v3 seems to be about extended possessions with the puck and making offensive plays, neither of which Alzner and Niskanen are particularly great at.

Alzner, for example, strives in a structured system, and by its very nature 3v3 is very unstructured. Even though he's a good skater I'd consider not even putting him out on the ice at all for 3v3 next time. There was a moment last night where he was rushing into the offensive zone with the puck during the 3v3, but instead of regrouping at center ice and maintaining control of the puck while players were changing, he kind of just dumped the puck in and gave possession to the Penguins. Losing possession of the puck at 3v3 is huge, certainly much worse than a dump and change at 5v5.

The moment Washington gets two forwards on the ice they typically dominate the 3v3 because their skill in an unstructured environment can overpower the opponent.

If the Caps lose the faceoff they're immediately in defensive mode and on their heels. That comes with probably their worst defensive forwards on the ice if they're thinking of putting their top offensive threats on the ice, except maybe Oshie and Backstrom. You probably want NB taking the first faceoff, which means you're replacing Oshie with someone for defense, then getting your scoring threats out there when you have clear possession. I don't think Alzner is bad in the open ice like you do. In fact I struggle to recall him getting burned the way Orlov regularly does.

It seems like you want to take a huge, full standings point gamble just for one faceoff/possession that could last a few seconds and has about a 50% chance of going the wrong way. That's like trying a winning shot in tennis off the opponent's serve every time. Sometimes you just have to get the volley going and then attack.

IIRC Trotz tried it your way when 3v3 first started up and OTs were ending quickly, usually in our own net. That's why he switched.

 

[txpd]

Alzner does not get burned one on one. He rarely loses a two on one. He skates well and is not out of place with all the open ice. The idea that he is some creature of the system is further evidence of twabs lack of respect for defensive players

 

[twabby]

It's not as easy as just getting your best forwards on the ice when you get possession of the puck when:

1. It's very difficult to regain possession of the puck at 3v3 once the other team has it, no matter how good you are defensively
2. Line changes can be incredibly difficult to make in OT because it's a long change, which makes it even more important for your players on the ice to be able to control and skate with the puck.

Alzner's not bad in open ice defensively, but he can't skate the puck on his own in open ice. Pittsburgh only looked dangerous at 3v3 when both Alzner and Niskanen were on the ice. I don't think it would have been appreciably worse if, say Alzner were replaced with Oshie with the added benefit that Oshie can actually transition the puck on his own. It's that individual effort that Alzner simply doesn't have the skillset to do.

 

[twabby]

Alzner does not get burned one on one. He rarely loses a two on one. He skates well and is not out of place with all the open ice. The idea that he is some creature of the system is further evidence of twabs lack of respect for defensive players

It's not a lack of respect for defensive players. Not getting burned 1v1 is fine, but not being able to transition to offense as effectively as other options is not fine, especially at 3v3 when individual transition is an immensely valuable skill. Even though Alzner is better at 5v5, Orlov or Schmidt are much better options at 3v3 if you are going to go with 2 D.

It doesn't matter because this is a playoff team and 3v3 doesn't happen in the playoffs, but it leads me to believe more and more that Trotz is the type of coach that just likes to play it safe rather than to go for it. He has superior offensive talent, use it.

 

[txpd]

It's not a lack of respect for defensive players. Not getting burned 1v1 is fine, but not being able to transition to offense as effectively as other options is not fine, especially at 3v3 when individual transition is an immensely valuable skill. Even though Alzner is at 5v5, Orlov or Schmidt are much better options at 3v3.

It doesn't matter because this is a playoff team and 3v3 doesn't happen in the playoffs, but it leads me to believe more and more that Trotz is the type of coach that just likes to play it safe rather than to go for it. He has superior offensive talent, use it.

You are not getting it. Who needs to transition to offense on that first possession of OT? If they win the face off Niskenan and the F skate the puck in and Alzner comes off for Ov. that is what happened lost night. If the Caps lose the faceoff the Caps don't need to do anything but get possession and make a change.

Transition to offense is not key. Its there if it presents itself and Alzner passes the puck just fine. But transitioning to win the game on the first shift is not that important.

 

[g00n]

It's not as easy as just getting your best forwards on the ice when you get possession of the puck when:

1. It's very difficult to regain possession of the puck at 3v3 once the other team has it, no matter how good you are defensively
2. Line changes can be incredibly difficult to make in OT because it's a long change, which makes it even more important for your players on the ice to be able to control and skate with the puck.

Alzner's not bad in open ice defensively, but he can't skate the puck on his own in open ice. Pittsburgh only looked dangerous at 3v3 when both Alzner and Niskanen were on the ice. I don't think it would have been appreciably worse if, say Alzner were replaced with Oshie with the added benefit that Oshie can actually transition the puck on his own. It's that individual effort that Alzner simply doesn't have the skillset to do.

Disagree completely with your two points. The puck is turned over pretty easily once it's shot, and on the initial faceoff you WILL likely be on your heels and probably skating backwards. That's a d-man's wheelhouse. You want a guy like Kuz defending a 2 on 1 off the faceoff?

Line changes are easier than usual 3v3. There's a lot more ice and time. The other team is often changing as well. See Eller's (?) backpass to the Holtby's zone from the O-zone last night for evidence. Backpassing the length of the ice to get a line change would NEVER fly 5 on 5.

So now Alzner is your whipping boy?

Even though Alzner is better at 5v5, Orlov or Schmidt are much better options at 3v3 if you are going to go with 2 D.

Given Orlov's performance 1 on 1 defensively, I have no idea how you can type this with a straight face.

 

[Langway]

The simple answer re: Alzner is playing not to lose to begin OT. That's prudent enough I guess but it does also play into the whole close-to-vest conservative approach that's mostly a death by a thousand cuts ultimately.

 

[g00n]

The simple answer re: Alzner is playing not to lose to begin OT. That's prudent enough I guess but it does also play into the whole close-to-vest conservative approach that's mostly a death by a thousand cuts ultimately.

For one faceoff to start a volatile 3v3 that's 5 minutes long and worth a full standings point? I agree it's prudent but I wouldn't put it in the same class as the overall coin flip conservative full game strategy. I could see just about any coach doing it if his forwards started getting burned on that faceoff.

 

[txpd]

Even though Alzner is better at 5v5, Orlov or Schmidt are much better options at 3v3 if you are going to go with 2 D..

This shows your complete lack of respect for defensive oriented players. You can only think one dimensionally. offensively. When Crosby or Malkin or Stamkos or Giroux or Marchand or Karlsson has the puck in 3 on 3, who is going to be better at defending. Alzner or Orlov? Alzner by a mile. Its clear from there that Alzner is your best route to getting the puck away from them and getting possession.

Yea, I would much rather have Ov one on one against Karlsson and would rather have Niskanen and Alzner to take the puck away from Karlsson.

Shift changes in OT are difficult if you stay out too long and get trapped in your own end. Having possession and holding the puck while your mates change on the other hand is easy.

Again, Trotz used 27 and 2 at the start of OT. When the Caps got the puck Alzner came off for Ov who skated directly into a play at the net.

 

[txpd]

The simple answer re: Alzner is playing not to lose to begin OT. That's prudent enough I guess but it does also play into the whole close-to-vest conservative approach that's mostly a death by a thousand cuts ultimately.

This not swinging 3-0. Hell, its not going 3 forwards for an offensive zone face off. Its putting 2 d on the ice for the opening face off. If the Caps get possession, the 2nd d comes off for Ovechkin. If they lose it, they are in the best position to get the puck back.

Its no more being close to the vest than pulling your goalie with 2 minutes to play and a center ice face off.

Lets not talk about this like Trotz basic 3 on 3 plan is 1f and 2d because the 2d call is very specialized.

 

[HockeyTS32]

That goal against was 100% on Oshie

I don't know if I'd say 100% on Oshie, but def a lot of the blame. Some of the blame should be on Carlson as well. As a d-man, you should never let a guy behind him like that. I understand he is trying to get up in the play to create an odd man rush against, but he's got to be a little smarter there.

 

[Langway]

For one faceoff to start a volatile 3v3 that's 5 minutes long and worth a full standings point? I agree it's prudent but I wouldn't put it in the same class as the overall coin flip conservative full game strategy. I could see just about any coach doing it if his forwards started getting burned on that faceoff.

Well, they did last year to begin with. Is that enough for it to dictate strategy going forward? To do it in the pre-season as a rule (which they did both times IINM)?

I have seen other coaches play two defensemen to begin 3-on-3 OT but it's pretty rare. Maybe it's a testament to just little they trust the two-way instincts of the forward group on whole but it's not a typical strategy.

BTW: Exhibit A in why Trotz doesn't trust the NHL score sheet, the pxp and shift logs have Oshie on the ice to start OT rather than Alzner. The Caps won the opening faceoff and regrouped behind the net yet Alzner didn't change. Rather Alzner tried to make a play at the offensive blueline that led to Kessel eventually getting a chance. So the inability to make a play can be just as dangerous. Ironically, the same thing almost happened the very next shift with a misplay by Schmidt almost leading to a 2-on-1.

 

[twabby]

Disagree completely with your two points. The puck is turned over pretty easily once it's shot, and on the initial faceoff you WILL likely be on your heels and probably skating backwards. That's a d-man's wheelhouse. You want a guy like Kuz defending a 2 on 1 off the faceoff?

Line changes are easier than usual 3v3. There's a lot more ice and time. The other team is often changing as well. See Eller's (?) backpass to the Holtby's zone from the O-zone last night for evidence. Backpassing the length of the ice to get a line change would NEVER fly 5 on 5.

So now Alzner is your whipping boy?



Given Orlov's performance 1 on 1 defensively, I have no idea how you can type this with a straight face.

Making a line change is easy when you have the puck in the offensive or neutral zones because it's easy enough to double-back or do a backpass, as you mentioned. But if you lose the initial faceoff you will almost assuredly be faced with regaining possession in your own defensive zone and with the long change it is very difficult for a defenseman to get all the way up ice to make that change unless the puck also goes all the way up in a controlled manner. The opposition doesn't just let you sit around with the puck waiting for your players to make a change because they'll already be on the forecheck. So yes, I think 3v3 changes are very difficult on your own half of the ice, especially since you will likely be pressured and rarely have an opportunity to skate the puck up ice without being contested (things that Orlov and Schmidt do very well, even if their decision-making as a whole isn't as good as Alzner's).

Orlov and Schmidt are certainly worse defensively than Alzner but their ability to transition from defense to offense in an open-ice setting is incredibly valuable and much better than Alzner's ability in this area. Being able to carry the puck up ice and maintaining possession solo allows for others to make a line change.

And please, stop with the whipping boy comments. It's just ignorant on your part. I mentioned a specific area of the game where Alzner is weaker than others (3v3 transition and offense) and that's equivalent to him being a whipping boy? It's similar to saying Alzner isn't very good on the PP or that Ovechkin isn't a great PKer (comments I'm sure most people will agree with). He's a very good defenseman in most situations, but the very specialized 3v3 setting doesn't seem to be one of them. You seem to try to be making something out of nothing for some reason.

 

[txpd]

the idea is that you put niskanen and alzner out so that IF you lose that opening face off you are not pinned in your offensive end so long that the change is difficult. I realize that you think niskanen is also a defensive defenseman there lacking in offensive skill, but he is not lacking in transition skills. In fact I notice that you have not mentioned Carlson at all. Makes me wonder if you think he is lacking in offensive and transition skills as well.

basic fact of the matter is that you cant transition from defense to offense without the puck. Orlov and Schmidt are the least capable defenders on the team and are by definition the players least likely to get the takeaway they need.

Its obvious but worth a mention that transition from defense to offense is unnecessary when the puck is in your net.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Tom Wilson....

On 4th line and not even 6 minutes.

Trotz obviously relied on top 9 heavily last night.

Was hoping this was the year Wilson finally takes a step forward like a first rd talent should (like it seems Bura is doing), but Trotz obviously doesn't believe in him just yet.

 

[txpd]

Tom Wilson....

On 4th line and not even 6 minutes.

Trotz obviously relied on top 9 heavily last night.

Was hoping this was the year Wilson finally takes a step forward like a first rd talent should (like it seems Bura is doing), but Trotz obviously doesn't believe in him just yet.

Wilson missed most of camp. I expect he will get his chances. right now Sanford has that slot. He was kind of invisible last night with a bad turnover or two. Patience.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

That MJ breakaway in the 3rd period summed up his career. How many empty nets has he missed?

 

[um]

That MJ breakaway in the 3rd period summed up his career. How many empty nets has he missed?

really? with most players that puck ends up in the corner, the fact that Mojo got a chance is impressive.

 

[txpd]

That MJ breakaway in the 3rd period summed up his career. How many empty nets has he missed?

I think most including the NBC crew thought that was a tripping penalty.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

really? with most players that puck ends up in the corner, the fact that Mojo got a chance is impressive.

Yeah, he skates fast, and he misses great scoring chances.

I think most including the NBC crew thought that was a tripping penalty.

I don't see it, Johansson lifted his leg to avoid Fleury's stick. He fell because the puck got out of reach.

 

[bur and 666 others]

my take aways from the game (didn't see the beginning of the 1st):

- in the second period the whole team struggled to pass (D couldn't give clear pass for breakaways, F dumped and chased and Kuzy carried puck by himself only to lose in O zone), except Backstrom. While the pens passing was exceptional.
+ the team started carrying the play in the 3rd and the passing became good. I felt we had possession all time and the Pens touched puck so little

-Sanford looked like a rookie at the beginning, nervous and tentative
-Eller was invisible at the beginning
+Sanford started showing some flashes of brilliance that earned him the spot in the team
+Eller had a great PK and from that took off and started looking good
-Sanford made a rookie mistake throwing the puck to the middle in D zone resulting to a scoring chance

+the second line was great. backstrom is the man, i think he's gna have a great year. same with Bura

-the first line was meh. I'm worrying about Ov and Kuzy. Hope they aren't going to have a down year. For some reason, I don't worry about Osh, i think he'll have a good year (ala the conract year lol)

? the fourth line, didn't notice them much, though Beagle was fast and had few breakaways. Wilson tried to do his thing. Winnik was a completely invisible man

- the pens always had someone uncovered, by himself, in front of Holtby! Always! You can call it opportunistic and lucky, but i think it's either our system/personal or their system/personal. Something is broke here.
+ we had few times (two?) someone all by himself in front of Fleury

++holtby

+ overtime. I hadn't understand why Trotz have 2 D in the overtime, but now it makes totally sense. We had complete possession in the overtime. It seemed we had a good plan how to play the overtime, while the pens were just running around.
- too bad,we didn't score on so many chances there

Overall, there were ups and downs. I expected to be just ups as I thought the Pens would suffer 'the cup hangover' plus no Crosby, but kudos to them to come up and play hard.

Only concern for me is why we aren't possession monsters, why we can't pass? with the skill on the team, one would think they should be better than just dump and chase.