Is The League Trending in the Wrong Direction (AGAIN) for Our Team?

[Havoc]

This type of low event/heavy/attrition/non skill/grit playoff hockey never went away.

There's just a type of fan who has been pushing a Progressive Hockey Narrative without being a student of the game and learning about the stories of how real championship runs are put together, which is always a recipe of skill meets balance meets grit meets intangibles. All that ugly Mike Babcock type stuff.

Dats and Berg approaching 30 years old when they won.

Pretty sure part of this "recipe" is patience.

 

[Stephen]

Dats and Berg approaching 30 years old when they won.

Pretty sure part of this "recipe" is patience.

Of course. But the importance of guys like Cleary, Draper, Franzen, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Maltby, Drake and other role playes, veterans, leaders among others also shouldn't be edited out of what people think was a skilled, puck possession team, which Detroit was.

 

[IPS]

Any structure of team has won a cup when they got hot at the right time.

 

[Cobra777]

The Penguins in 2017 weren't anything special defensively or very physical. Their advanced metrics in those playoffs were really bad, but they could put the puck in the net.

Penguins were never easy to play against because they play determined and don't give up and bail on pucks, grit works many different ways which is a determination to get the job done at all costs weather its scoring or the determination to win the battles needed to be able to score, even though not the most physical they still barreled in and made contact on their fore check something our team does not and their back check and zone coverage was very decent that season as well. I don't see that same determination of our team when things don't go their way or if the other team cloggs the middle and frustrates our speed game, our team is not willing to fight through that and then looks bland and uninspired.

 

[Merrrlin]

This type of low event/heavy/attrition/non skill/grit playoff hockey never went away.

There's just a type of fan who has been pushing a Progressive Hockey Narrative without being a student of the game and learning about the stories of how real championship runs are put together, which is always a recipe of skill meets balance meets grit meets intangibles. All that ugly Mike Babcock type stuff.

Damn Stephen, you just disappointed me with this one. Unreal.

 

[HolyCrap]

For me it's IQ.

Smart teams win.

Our D is dumb

I.....I can’t disagree with you on that. Lol. They really are.

 

[Nineteen67]

It's tough to say, but if I threw out some thoughts:

I've been ranting for MLSE to push hard for the league to call penalties to the letter. Eliminate interference if you don't have the puck etc. I imagine other owners who don't have deep pockets like this grinding hockey because it leaves salaries lower when they don't have to overpay the most talented. You can stack a team up with depth, the depth, all built for "put the whistle away playoffs". Big talent takes big contracts, and more risk if they don't pan out.

It's not as bad as it used to be, that's for sure, but the tight, boring hockey is creeping back. In a highly competitive sports market it won't help their product. The only sport in the world that seems to undermine, sometimes even fail to protect their top talent.

Ultimately, it creates more parity, but, doesn't allow the sport to have it's best talent showcased, nor the beauty of the game. I think it was 2005 or so when they called everything, it had an immediate effect of getting rid of slower, older players. It seems, the sport is creeping back to less flash, more grind. Though, puck battles have always been a part of NHL playoffs, moreso than regular season. You have to want it more I suppose. The refs and league never seem interested in ensuring a tightly called, focus-on-talent game though. It's quite unusual.

Go to espn website and see where NHL is located on their sports search. It's still well behind the rest.

No, the players are just faster and can defend better. If you watch around the league, the fast, quick moving teams generate lots of pp opportunities. Actually I think there are too many calls and PP.

Oh.....never go to ESPN for anything.....

 

[7even]

I don't know what it is about this topic that restricts people to talking about it in only vague, solemn platitudes but this thread is barely legible

 

[Joey Hoser]

Of course. But the importance of guys like Cleary, Draper, Franzen, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Maltby, Drake and other role playes, veterans, leaders among others also shouldn't be edited out of what people think was a skilled, puck possession team, which Detroit was.

That's always in hindsight, though.
Every team has depth players that aren't very good, but when they win the cup, they get labelled as hard-nosed workers that you need in order to win a cup. Then they often sign big UFA deals because of it, and are a disaster by Christmas because they weren't actually that good, and just happened to play well enough not to screw it up.

 

[AvroArrow]

Theres not 1 single element that wins you a cup, its a collection of things IMO.

1) Skill
2) Grit/grinding
3) A system, players with roles
4) Team defence
5) Special teams
6) Ability to adjust
7) Goaltending
8) Coaching
9) Hits
10) Depth
X factor) Luck

Assume we give each category a rating, 1-10. I would say any combination that gives you at least 80 can win you a cup.

I have our leafs at about 70, (75-80 with some good luck) good enough for the playoffs but not strong enough defensively, physically and not able to adjust. Hope they prove me wrong

 

[Stephen]

That's always in hindsight, though.
Every team has depth players that aren't very good, but when they win the cup, they get labelled as hard-nosed workers that you need in order to win a cup. Then they often sign big UFA deals because of it, and are a disaster by Christmas because they weren't actually that good, and just happened to play well enough not to screw it up.

Not really a question of hindsight at all when those supporting players were making solid contributions throughout the 2008 and 2009 runs to the finals either by scoring garbage goals, helping to maintain puck possession by digging in the corners, starting the cycle, crashing the net, and nursing small leads.

To be fair though people are probably not actually watching a lot of these finals games late in June when their own teams aren’t in it. A lot of years I tune out myself, but those Pittsburgh Detroit matchups were some of the more enjoyable series over the years so I’m crediting those role players.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Every team needs a certain amount of high skilled high end guys. You just don't need 18 of them. You need footsoldiers, guys that support the big players and then 3 or 4 (have to have at least 1 dman).

Helps from an on ice point of view and a cap point of view.

I just don't see the make up of Stanley Cup Champions changing much over the last 15 years. I'm not sure why our organization was so adamant a "New NHL" existed

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We have a team who can compete against Tampa, Panthers, Habs, Rangers, Philli, Pittsburgh. We don't have personnel against CLB, Canes, Caps and Bruins. It is a combination of skill and size and speed and toughness. We are missing size and toughness. In original format we would have been OK with Tampa matchup. But tables got turned and COVID changed everything.

 

[Cobra777]

1st off we are going absolutely NO where with only two defense man in Morgan Reilly, Muzz the rest are just NOT that good or physical and cave under pressure Then you have a young forward group that has that mindset when things don't go their way they fold. We literally have NO forecheck and a bare minimum cycle, other teams D never pay any penalty with a solid check or seem worried one small tad about receiving one. How the expletive can you possibly win? You don't have to be an unskilled face puncher to be tough and play with grit and an edge with determination. Bostons 1st line Pasternak, Bergeron and Marchand finish checks and are in your face and they have skill obviously. They are not face punchers but skill that plays with an edge.
Most other teams top lines finish their checks and make it hard to play against them its an edge mindset.

That little shrimp Brendan Gallagher plays like he is 6'4 and instigates and backs down from no one.

The list that barely finish checks: Mathews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Engvall, the Goat, most of our D, Soupy, thats most our team. Most nights are very passive

Montreal is far more physical, the Hurricanes, Islanders, T.Bay, Pitts in this years play offs have played with far more edge than Toronto. Ive seen smaller teams with smaller players take runs at defense on their fore check and makes them pay.

I don't care what anyone says or some stats guy is gonna say about hits because if you just touch somebody is that a hit?

Our team is the Worst physical team in the league and with 2 defense we will never get to the promise land I will guarantee you that. There are far too many one dimensional players on this team.

Many will argue these points but the truth hurts and season after season we will be left wondering why and constantly blaming the officiating is getting old. Some changes have to be made. You can afford 1 or 2 passive players but not the bulk of the team, not in this league.

 

[kb]

Imagine St. Louis dumping Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, and Parayko and rebuilding when they couldn't win a round for years?

How stupid would that look today.

Let's try not to be stupid.

 

[Gallagbi]

Imagine St. Louis dumping Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, and Parayko and rebuilding when they couldn't win a round for years?

How stupid would that look today.

Let's try not to be stupid.

I think the question with the winning core is who are the Tank, Parayko, Backstrom, Kuznetsov and who are the Semin, Green, Stastny, Berglund of the group.

A lot of these cup winners lost "key pieces" before winning

 

[dubplatepressure]

I think the question with the winning core is who are the Tank, Parayko, Backstrom, Kuznetsov and who are the Semin, Green, Stastny, Berglund of the group.

A lot of these cup winners lost "key pieces" before winning

Incredibly valid point. Washington and STL were both on their final years with their cores when they won cups in that if they'd flopped in the postseason again significant changes were coming. I don't think this core is there yet, but I also think we need to keep this in mind at all times. Also, sometimes a single player can make a world of difference. We need players that play with no fear.

 

[Gallagbi]

Incredibly valid point. Washington and STL were both on their final years with their cores when they won cups in that if they'd flopped in the postseason again significant changes were coming. I don't think this core is there yet, but I also think we need to keep this in mind at all times. Also, sometimes a single player can make a world of difference. We need players that play with no fear.

I also have a lot of trouble balancing STL as any model to follow

Tank was an out of shape star player that was likely on the move if they got the return they needed. That move happens and there's no cup. O'Rielly has gone from wart to key building block

 

[Clark4Ever]

If Dubas is willing to adapt, we are actually in a very good position moving forward. It is very difficult to acquire high end skill in this league, but foot soldiers with a great work ethic are much easier to come by. We have plenty of assets to make the right moves.

We need to retool, not blow it up.

 

[dubplatepressure]

I also have a lot of trouble balancing STL as any model to follow

Tank was an out of shape star player that was likely on the move if they got the return they needed. That move happens and there's no cup. O'Rielly has gone from wart to key building block

They also continually tinkered until they had the right mix of skill, size, and grit. Same with Washington. I don't think we have that composition right now... I think we are at least 1 mean defenseman and 1 mean forward (who plays more than 3 minutes a night) away from being there. We have a soft, small blueline and that really hurts in the postseason... Holl, Ceci, Dermott, Barrie, and most of our forwards are all puppy dogs on the meanness scale. The current group don't seem to have that take-no-crap fearless attitude that these other teams mentalities show. Anyway this is a horse that's already been beaten to death.

 

[kb]

I think the question with the winning core is who are the Tank, Parayko, Backstrom, Kuznetsov and who are the Semin, Green, Stastny, Berglund of the group.

A lot of these cup winners lost "key pieces" before winning

Except I don't see anything that screams "core" from the second group.

 

[Gallagbi]

Except I don't see anything that screams "core" from the second group.

Green was a 30 goal defenseman literally the only one on the past 25 years. Statsny was their second line C, Semin was Washington's second best scorer upfront when they were winning President's trophies. Come on now

 

[Rysto]

they finished the POs with a 2.28 GAG ,,,,,,,2nd best for teams that made it past the 2nd round,,so ummmmm

So they finished 2nd out of 4 teams? That really doesn't say much...

 

[Trapper]

Except I don't see anything that screams "core" from the second group.

Sometimes you need to change the dynamic of a team if it doesn’t (or isn’t) getting done.
I’m not saying today but if the mentality is stalled, you have skill but lack being a certain type of team to push the gear, changes are needed.

Like DeRozan traded. Different skill, all-defensive team, different competing mentality.
Like Ron Francis to Pittsburgh. Shanny to Detroit. Guys like Primeau and Ray Shepard out.
Butch Goring to the Islanders.
Changes that made actual changes. Not adding to a group of nothing moved that struggles. For that we need to wait and see.
Maybe actually winning a round will finally wake the group up. Maybe it’s a mental block. The Blues team that won was nothin like the past team. Backes/Shattenkirk/Oshie/etc. gone.

 

[kb]

Green was a 30 goal defenseman literally the only one on the past 25 years. Statsny was their second line C, Semin was Washington's second best scorer upfront when they were winning President's trophies.

Green they let walk in UFA. Stastny was a 40-50 point scorer on the wrong side of thirty with St. Louis who was traded as a pending UFA, so he wasn't a core piece either. Semin was also allowed to walk as a UFA, not a core piece.

Core pieces are the ones that don't get moved. lol