Is The League Trending in the Wrong Direction (AGAIN) for Our Team?

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,490
11,107
Green they let walk in UFA. Stastny was a 40-50 point scorer on the wrong side of thirty with St. Louis who was traded as a pending UFA, so he wasn't a core piece either. Semin was also allowed to walk as a UFA, not a core piece.

Core pieces are the ones that don't get moved. lol
So wait, how did STL get O'Rielly? Isn't he a core piece as the Conn Smythe winner?

Players can price themselves out of markets, like we saw with the Caps. Tough to keep the band together when you don't win. If the Leafs don't start winning they'll be moving some name players that are currently considered part of the core.
 

nonikhanna

Registered User
Feb 9, 2011
251
65
Maple Tree
It takes just 2 things to win in the playoffs.
1. Keep it tight.
2. Force turnovers.

If the Leafs can play like they played on Sunday but be more aggressive in hunting the puck, they can win.
The Leafs against the caps played much better than the Leafs against the bruins. That's because they were the underdogs, and had to play fast, tight and take advantage of every opportunity. That was a much more enjoyable Leafs team to watch than the teams that faced the bruins. Who were lazier and thought they could coast in.

Keeping it tight, forcing turnovers combined with their skill... they could be unstoppable.
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
16,521
10,128
It takes just 2 things to win in the playoffs.
1. Keep it tight.
2. Force turnovers.

If the Leafs can play like they played on Sunday but be more aggressive in hunting the puck, they can win.
The Leafs against the caps played much better than the Leafs against the bruins. That's because they were the underdogs, and had to play fast, tight and take advantage of every opportunity. That was a much more enjoyable Leafs team to watch than the bruins. Who were lazier and thought they could coast in.

Keeping it tight, forcing turnovers combined with their skill... they could be unstoppable.
I always thought the key to winning in playoff is at least score one more goal than the opposing team, lol.

I think the Leafs can definitely build on Game 1. The big guns just need to show up.
 

kb

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
15,200
21,497
So wait, how did STL get O'Rielly? Isn't he a core piece as the Conn Smythe winner?

Players can price themselves out of markets, like we saw with the Caps. Tough to keep the band together when you don't win. If the Leafs don't start winning they'll be moving some name players that are currently considered part of the core.
Players can price themselves out of markets, yes - if they aren't core pieces. But those deemed to be core pieces are kept.

O'Rielly? He was acquired by trading 5 non-core pieces for him.
 

JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
12,055
7,319
We have to remodel our team. Even if we had beaten Tampa in 4 games and then lost to canes in 4 games it would be da same. We need to ice a team like Caps and Bruins who can play any type of game and be successful. We don't have da right mix of guys. Our defense needs a couple big fast scary guys who will stop teams from taking our house over. We need a couple power forwards who can scramble up a couple defenders and allow us to cycle. We are not far off but we need to make da appropriate deals to transform our squad.
 

therealkoho

Him/Leaf/fan
Jul 10, 2009
17,008
8,200
the Prior
Trends?

all skill, all kill?

great teams are balanced, they always have been, they always will be, it's something that will never change

the two greatest teams I've had the pleasure to witness were the 79-85ish NY Islanders and the 74ish to 80 Canadiens, both of those teams could out skate you, out muscle you, out fight you, out finesse you, out goaltend you, out defend you, out work you and out score you, didn't matter what you brought to the rink or how you wanted to play them, they could elevate whatever part of their game was necessary to beat you.

The Leafs team I saw the other night, didn't seem to want to be involved in the hard work it takes to win. It wasn't one guy or four guy's and it won't be one guy or four guy's to win, it will be 20 men who refuse to be beaten on any shift, nobody can win them all, but you have to make the opposition pay a price if they're going to beat you.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,490
11,107
Players can price themselves out of markets, yes - if they aren't core pieces. But those deemed to be core pieces are kept.

O'Rielly? He was acquired by trading 5 non-core pieces for him.
Why did Buffalo let a core piece go when they were trying to win? Who is Toronto's core today?
 

kb

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
15,200
21,497
Why did Buffalo let a core piece go when they were trying to win? Who is Toronto's core today?
Buffalo was trying to win? When did that happen? They were last in the entire NHL by a long shot when they traded O'Rielly, and were last or second last each year with him.. They were getting worse, and he was traded because he was not going to be a core piece for them when they were ready to contend. So no, not a core piece - for Buffalo.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,490
11,107
Buffalo was trying to win? When did that happen? They were last in the entire NHL by a long shot when they traded O'Rielly, and were last or second last each year with him.. They were getting worse, and he was traded because he was not going to be a core piece for them when they were ready to contend. So no, not a core piece - for Buffalo.
When they acquired Skinner that same offseason. Let's not pretend Buffalo wanted to be bad.

Here's the thing, you're jumping around using the results rather than the intent and players. Right now, the Leafs don't have any results.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
40,973
32,364
St. Paul, MN
If Dubas is willing to adapt, we are actually in a very good position moving forward. It is very difficult to acquire high end skill in this league, but foot soldiers with a great work ethic are much easier to come by. We have plenty of assets to make the right moves.

We need to retool, not blow it up.

The thing is this team could.do a fairly radical retool ofnthe supporting players while leaving the bulk of the core intact.

Not that I'm suggesting that's necessary to such a degree but way too many folks seem to think the only way to change things is trading a Marner or Nylander level player, which doesnt need to happen...
 

Commander Clueless

Hiya, hiya. Pleased to meetcha.
Sep 10, 2008
15,237
2,922
While we called for more skill on our team in years past, we didn't mean they had to gut ALL the grit. :laugh:

The fun thing is, you can adjust your team. Having great pieces in place to build around helps a lot.
 

Havoc

Registered User
Jul 25, 2009
7,271
7,483
People act like Dubas will turn down a Foligno or Coleman if he had the opportunity to acquire one. Colemans are cheap if you're the first one to find them too.

This organization loves the hyman types.

It is baseless to suggest guys like this wont be added as the seasons go on. This season alone we added a new puck hungry winger in mikheyev in our top 6 and got a bruiser in Clifford for the 4th line. Last season brought in muzzin. Picked a high intensity player in Robertson whose already on the team .

Hes not going to find everyone at once but at least we got the hardest part out of the way: elite skill.
 
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ruaware41

Typical
Oct 22, 2019
1,459
1,384
This type of low event/heavy/attrition/non skill/grit playoff hockey never went away.

There's just a type of fan who has been pushing a Progressive Hockey Narrative without being a student of the game and learning about the stories of how real championship runs are put together, which is always a recipe of skill meets balance meets grit meets intangibles. All that ugly Mike Babcock type stuff.
Babcock's rosters were soft generally
 

Warden of the North

Ned Stark's head
Apr 28, 2006
46,263
21,455
Muskoka
The NHL definitely favours low event, low chances and generally less entertaining hockey right now. It's certainly an easier way to win.

I think Toronto's problems go further than that, though, so I wouldn't say they are cursed.

It was painful that a period of RFA empowerment happened as they were signing their stars, only to have a pandemic lock the cap up. That's for management to figure out, we will see if they are capable.

Id much rather pay a star RFA what we are paying then give a middling UFA his grand slam contract only to have him fall off a cliff immediately. See Eriksson, Lucic, Ladd etc. Our "bad" contracts are still all movable in good hockey trades. They aren't dumps.
 

Merrrlin

Grab the 9 iron, Barry!
Jul 2, 2019
6,768
6,925
Id much rather pay a star RFA what we are paying then give a middling UFA his grand slam contract only to have him fall off a cliff immediately. See Eriksson, Lucic, Ladd etc. Our "bad" contracts are still all movable in good hockey trades. They aren't dumps.

Did you quote the right post?
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Id much rather pay a star RFA what we are paying then give a middling UFA his grand slam contract only to have him fall off a cliff immediately. See Eriksson, Lucic, Ladd etc. Our "bad" contracts are still all movable in good hockey trades. They aren't dumps.

In terms of bad contracts and the current NHL landscape with a flat cap projected for the next 3 seasons then Leafs might have to eat $2-3 mil of Marner's contract in salary retention in order to move him in a good hockey trade. IMO

Marner should be a $8.5 mil player and be on the Draisaitl similar contract right now if not for the botched contract negotiations. So that is where the ~$2-3 mil retention figure derives from as the team would need and want his contract at market value to his peers to truly pay market value in return. IMO

Leafs had to eat a portion of Kessel's deal for 7 years in order to get a 1st round pick and Kapanen in the deal.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,841
51,510
In terms of bad contracts and the current NHL landscape with a flat cap projected for the next 3 seasons then Leafs might have to eat $2-3 mil of Marner's contract in salary retention in order to move him in a good hockey trade. IMO

Marner should be a $8.5 mil player and be on the Draisaitl similar contract right now if not for the botched contract negotiations. So that is where the ~$2-3 mil retention figure derives from as the team would need and want his contract at market value to his peers to truly pay market value in return. IMO

Leafs had to eat a portion of Kessel's deal for 7 years in order to get a 1st round pick and Kapanen in the deal.

Mess, the way I justify it, Marner is basically an $8.5 million player.

Between he and Nylander, our high end winger duo make a combined cap hit a shade under $18 million. Split that 50/50 and the take home for each averages about $8.9 million each, and both are hovering around the performance level of an Aho, Point, probably Barzal after this season, etc.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
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Leafs Home Board
Mess, the way I justify it, Marner is basically an $8.5 million player.

Between he and Nylander, our high end winger duo make a combined cap hit a shade under $18 million. Split that 50/50 and the take home for each averages about $8.9 million each, and both are hovering around the performance level of an Aho, Point, probably Barzal after this season, etc.

Did you get a chance to watch Aho and his Canes sweep the NYR and advance to the playoffs?

Aho 3 goals 5 assists 8 points was a complete dominating force at both ends of the ice.. His $8.45 mil cap is a complete steal compared to Marner's bloated contract as to how much he impacts his teams performance and how he completely controls and dictates his teams play.

Seabass is pretty good comparable for Marner as a peer so my justification if Marner is dealt that Leafs would have to eat the difference to bring his contract in line with where it should have been. The team that would acquire him doesn't get to do that cap hit splitting idea of yours unfortunately. :)
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,841
51,510
Did you get a chance to watch Aho and his Canes sweep the NYR and advance to the playoffs?

Aho 3 goals 5 assists 8 points was a complete dominating force at both ends of the ice.. His $8.45 mil cap is a complete steal compared to Marner's bloated contract as to how much he impacts his teams performance and how he completely controls and dictates his teams play.

Seabass is pretty good comparable for Marner as a peer so my justification if Marner is dealt that Leafs would have to eat the difference to bring his contract in line with where it should have been. The team that would acquire him doesn't get to do that cap hit splitting idea of yours unfortunately. :)

Aho is quickly climbing the charts as one my favourite current NHLers. He’s skilled and slight like Marner but plays the game heads up, alert and will play within the dots. He also isn’t trying to “ankle break” anyone with overly fancy plays, but will execute are a high rate, efficiently, making correct plays. And he’s got a bit of a nasty streak too.

The Hurricanes program is something the Leafs could take some cues from. They have a ton of young skill but play with pace and straight lines and don’t seem prone to those loopy bump back plays, half speed transitions and other weird hiccups and mannerisms the Leafs have developed over the years.
 
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Warden of the North

Ned Stark's head
Apr 28, 2006
46,263
21,455
Muskoka
In terms of bad contracts and the current NHL landscape with a flat cap projected for the next 3 seasons then Leafs might have to eat $2-3 mil of Marner's contract in salary retention in order to move him in a good hockey trade. IMO

Marner should be a $8.5 mil player and be on the Draisaitl similar contract right now if not for the botched contract negotiations. So that is where the ~$2-3 mil retention figure derives from as the team would need and want his contract at market value to his peers to truly pay market value in return. IMO

Leafs had to eat a portion of Kessel's deal for 7 years in order to get a 1st round pick and Kapanen in the deal.

The simple answer is you dont trade Marner.

Trade Kapanen. Get futures. Done.
 

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