Diversification
Registered User
- Jun 21, 2019
- 3,000
- 3,718
Speculation: Is the current core ready to become a perennial playoff team?
- Thread starter Diversification
- Start date
All dependent on what happens in the summer. Is the core good enough? probably. Are the other 15 players that are needed good enough? nope.
I think we are going to see some significant changes and the poll will need to be revisited during camp. If we don't see significant changes I expect the same sort of finish if goaltending does what it did for another year.
We have to be realistic. They went on a huge run and still finished 6 points out of the playoffs. Which contrary to what many believe is actually a pretty hefty number and only about 3 points closer to the dance than they were when the changes were made.
I think we are going to see some significant changes and the poll will need to be revisited during camp. If we don't see significant changes I expect the same sort of finish if goaltending does what it did for another year.
We have to be realistic. They went on a huge run and still finished 6 points out of the playoffs. Which contrary to what many believe is actually a pretty hefty number and only about 3 points closer to the dance than they were when the changes were made.
Last edited:
The core can contend for the Stanley Cup.
Need the right coaching staff and a couple of depth pieces to fill out the roster.
Need the right coaching staff and a couple of depth pieces to fill out the roster.
Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
The core has to become more consistent and better two-way threats to be a contender. I think they can be. It's the team built around them that I think is problematic, many of them are perfectly cromulent players, they just get paid too much is all.
Diversification
Registered User
- Jun 21, 2019
- 3,000
- 3,718
I more or less agree. Although I would add that a team is only going to go as far as its core players. They're the ones who will provide the bulk of the offense and set the tone in the room night in and night out. From that standpoint, I (perhaps optimistically) believe that these players are just now ready to shoulder the load over an 82 game season where they won't fall into extended funks and piss away a bunch of earnable points due to lack of effort or lack of defensive chops.
As you say, the supporting staff that surrounds them will be key. That's very much an open question and will test management's skill and inventiveness. I also agree that if we return next year with essentially the same roster, we will need a good amount of luck to make it in. Going with perennial playoff team, but it's making some projections in terms of offseason transactions that may not come about.
I would argue that they need to be more consistent to just become a perennial playoff team. It's that quality that makes them, well, perennial. Contender status though, I'm having difficulty seeing a glide path to that end at present, but time will tell.
I admire your optimism and hope that you're right.
Fatass
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
- 22,121
- 14,043
Who do we call our core? Demko, Petey, Bo, Hughes, Miller, Boeser? If we move Miller for futures, then we are clearly much different core. If we keep Miller and move Boeser are we much different?
Reverend Mayhem
Lowly Serf/Reluctant Cuckold
Yeah, I'm talking just the core as is. The team needs tons of work, the core could be better by doing the 2 things I listed and I think that will come naturally. If that happens, and the team around them is modified so we have more cost-effective and more well-rounded supporting cast members, we are a consistent playoff maker, which I would usually classify as a contender.
The core isn't what determines this really.
Look at Florida - they stunk when Huberdeau/Barkov/Ekblad etc,. were surrounded by bad players and are now a top team when those same guys are surrounded by terrific depth.
This is a pretty average core of players and they aren't going to drive this team well inside of the top half of the standings by themselves.
Look at Florida - they stunk when Huberdeau/Barkov/Ekblad etc,. were surrounded by bad players and are now a top team when those same guys are surrounded by terrific depth.
This is a pretty average core of players and they aren't going to drive this team well inside of the top half of the standings by themselves.
- Jan 23, 2010
- 25,107
- 15,229
I mean, anything is possible if they make the right moves. Trade Boeser, Dickinson, OEL, and Myers and then use that 20+ million to get 3 top-4 defensemen, a 3rd line C and a top 6 winger.
Is that likely? No. But you probably become a decent team pretty quickly with that.. at least for one year before the pick/prospect issues crop up.
Is that likely? No. But you probably become a decent team pretty quickly with that.. at least for one year before the pick/prospect issues crop up.
Let's define the "core": Pettersson, Hughes, Miller, Horvat, Demko, and Boeser. I'm not convinced Boeser is really a member of the core and Miller may end up being traded. For argument's sake let's say that's the core.
Forward group is fine as you have two centres and two wingers no matter where you position Miller and Pettersson. You have the starting goalie. The problem still lies on defence. Hughes was fantastic but the vast majority of team's have a second core defenceman. I count only four current playoff teams that only have one defenceman that you'd consider core (Capitals, Penguins, Flames, and Panthers) and those teams make up for it by having very deep defensive groups and, in some cases, an extremely strong commitment to team defense. So the Canucks either need to model themselves after these teams or go and get another core defenceman before this group has a shot.
Forward group is fine as you have two centres and two wingers no matter where you position Miller and Pettersson. You have the starting goalie. The problem still lies on defence. Hughes was fantastic but the vast majority of team's have a second core defenceman. I count only four current playoff teams that only have one defenceman that you'd consider core (Capitals, Penguins, Flames, and Panthers) and those teams make up for it by having very deep defensive groups and, in some cases, an extremely strong commitment to team defense. So the Canucks either need to model themselves after these teams or go and get another core defenceman before this group has a shot.
Mackenzie Weegar is a top-20 defender in the NHL - I'd easily rate him ahead of the likes of Werenski, as an example - and overall probably the most underrated player in hockey.
Likewise I'd consider all of Andersson/Tanev/Hanifin core-level players in Calgary. Calgary doesn't have a classic '#1' defender but they have three very, very good #2 defenders.
Pastor Of Muppetz
Registered User
- Oct 1, 2017
- 26,160
- 16,018
Sure. My greater point was that the Canucks don't have anyone in the defensive core beyond Hughes and the others aren't anywhere near the level of the 4 teams I listed. There's multiple routes of success (stud top pairing-good second pairing-3rd pairing that can tread water, a bunch of #2s, a combination of either) and the Canucks just don't have any of them at defence.
I voted the same. I was hotter on Calgary than everyone else and colder on Edmonton. Although Edmonton did accomplish about what I expect and their playoffs are going about what I expect. Next season is going to be interesting as hell now that things have stabilized, there will be a normal offseason, and some big free agents will be changing teams.
I agree and you're 100% correct, I was just saying that you were being overly generous in your examples of exceptions.
Weegar was 8th in Norris voting last year and would have been on my 2022 Canadian Olympic Team.
Pastor Of Muppetz
Registered User
- Oct 1, 2017
- 26,160
- 16,018
A lot of people were dunking on Calgary before this season, which was dumb because one look at their roster indicated that they had depth at forward, defence and a really good goaltender.
Daryl Sutter reset the Flames squad (with basically the same team that underachieved the previous season), and quietly went about beating all the teams on their eastern road swing to start the season...I am hoping that Boudreau can replicate that next season for the Canucks.
Diversification
Registered User
- Jun 21, 2019
- 3,000
- 3,718
I'm going to push back on this a bit. A core is essential for a team success. You can't do it without one, but as you rightly point out, they can't do it alone. That's true of every core unless you've got McDavid and Draisaitl, but even then.
The reason I framed the poll around the core is that it's illuminating as to what we've all been discussing around but maybe not addressing directly. To wit, is the core sufficient as is for the team build around (factoring cap, opportunity cost in terms of trade returns)? Is it feasible, is it wise, to build around them to take the team to the next stage past bubble team?
It speaks to the reasoning behind discussions around JT Miller. Is Miller an essential part of the core without which the team cannot progress? If he's dealt for futures and maybe a top 4 D, who fills the hole left behind? Free agent signing? What are the cap consequences/savings there if any relative to performance drop-off?
As it stands Canucks just don't have the personnel and I am skeptical that they'll be able to come to terms on contract extension with all of Horvat, Boeser, and Miller. So given those, I think the team will either take a step back or finish around the same spot. Regardless of who's coach.
The poll options feel different from the title. Taking the title literally, yeah I think this is the core of a consistently playoff capable team. If they had average depth around them, they'd probably be a perennial 5-9 seed, and with above-average depth they'd be somewhere around a 3-7 seed. As they stand, they have terrible depth and key roles (#1/2W, #3C, #3W, #2D, #3D) filled with players that are below average for those positions. In some cases, woefully so. Therefore, you have a team that should finish in any given season between 7-10 in the conference.
They aren't at the level of the league leaders who have upwards of 3-4 future HHOFers or whatever - that's what gets you to contending for the President's Trophy with a good surrounding cast (Boston in previous years, Colorado), floating to a playoff spot with a below average supporting cast (Edmonton, Pittsburgh every year) and winning Cups with a great supporting cast (Tampa the past two years). But you don't need that. Teams can win, and have, without that level of core if the supporting cast is great.
They aren't at the level of the league leaders who have upwards of 3-4 future HHOFers or whatever - that's what gets you to contending for the President's Trophy with a good surrounding cast (Boston in previous years, Colorado), floating to a playoff spot with a below average supporting cast (Edmonton, Pittsburgh every year) and winning Cups with a great supporting cast (Tampa the past two years). But you don't need that. Teams can win, and have, without that level of core if the supporting cast is great.
Diversification
Registered User
- Jun 21, 2019
- 3,000
- 3,718
Would you feel that way if the core lost Miller and replaced him with a complementary player through free agency?
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
- Mar 6, 2010
- 16,515
- 15,408
There's nothing wrong with the core. They have a #1 center, a #1 defensemen, and a #1 goaltender that are all among the best in the league at their position.
They have a train wreck of a defense, no 3rd line, and poor special teams coaching. They also could not win a game with Demko on the bench but hopefully Martin solves that.
Until they can get rid of the junk Benning accumulated and replace those players with solid pieces they'll be stuck somewhere between a bubble team and a low end playoff team. It's going to take time to undo all those absurd contracts handcuffing the team as most of them are unmovable.
They have a train wreck of a defense, no 3rd line, and poor special teams coaching. They also could not win a game with Demko on the bench but hopefully Martin solves that.
Until they can get rid of the junk Benning accumulated and replace those players with solid pieces they'll be stuck somewhere between a bubble team and a low end playoff team. It's going to take time to undo all those absurd contracts handcuffing the team as most of them are unmovable.
