Blue Jays Discussion: Is That LaCava or AA? Estrada re-signs (2/26M)

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

You're down on Pillar?

A 27-year-old low-cost CF with years of control, gold glove finalist at premium defensive position, coming off breakthrough season where he posted a very respectable .278 average, 12 homers, 25:4 sb ratio, pretty good minor league numbers, one of our better postseason performers, and no character concerns.

What's not to like? I understand it's not as if he's untouchable or even a core piece. But "yikes" seems out of place.

Of the four assets listed, he is the third most valuable. That's the yikes. The idea that he is an individual who causes a fan to get up in arms over a random proposal over the other two.

Trading him is stupid, agreed, but mostly for the fact that he would not fetch back in a trade what he is worth in terms of cost controlled-warm bodiness (patent pending).

 

[Canada4Gold]

Of the four assets listed, he is the third most valuable. That's the yikes. The idea that he is an individual who causes a fan to get up in arms over a random proposal over the other two.

Trading him is stupid, agreed, but mostly for the fact that he would not fetch back in a trade what he is worth in terms of cost controlled-warm bodiness (patent pending).

thanks for saying it out loud, we'll now proceed to 3 pages of posters telling us how much Hutch sucks

 

[Kurtz]

Trading him is stupid, agreed, but mostly for the fact that he would not fetch back in a trade what he is worth in terms of cost controlled-warm bodiness (patent pending).

I don't know about this. Pillar's value is by far the highest it's ever been. Unless you think that he can still improve, even given his lack of discipline and at 27, it would make sense to consider moving him for pitching now, given that we have Pompey to replace him.

 

[Kurtz]

The incentive for the Mets to move Wheeler is that they already have a really strong starting rotation and can afford to move one of them. Getting Dickey and Hutchison as part of the return doesn't make sense, not to mention the $12 million+ they would be adding to a payroll that already has very little wiggle room.

That's true, but I believe there were strong rumours that Harvey would be gone too (I can absolutely see Boston dumping the rest of their farm on the Mets for him). That'd leave them with Degrom, Noah and Matsz, and I think Dickey and Hutch would slot in perfectly in there. Jays would also probably cover some of Dickey's salary, but if not, his 12 mil hit for 1 year would be more than offset by the cheap contracts of Pillar and Hutch.

Anyway, it's just a hypothetical based around speculation about Mets young pitchers being available, and the recent Jays-related tweets. I can't think of too many other scenarios where we move RA and Hutch for a good, young starter.

 

[Discoverer]

That's true, but I believe there were strong rumours that Harvey would be gone too (I can absolutely see Boston dumping the rest of their farm on the Mets for him). That'd leave them with Degrom, Noah and Matsz, and I think Dickey and Hutch would slot in perfectly in there. Jays would also probably cover some of Dickey's salary, but if not, his 12 mil hit for 1 year would be more than offset by the cheap contracts of Pillar and Hutch.

Anyway, it's just a hypothetical based around speculation about Mets young pitchers being available, and the recent Jays-related tweets. I can't think of too many other scenarios where we move RA and Hutch for a good, young starter.

If they move Harvey, though, they wouldn't move Wheeler as well.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I don't know about this. Pillar's value is by far the highest it's ever been. Unless you think that he can still improve, even given his lack of discipline and at 27, it would make sense to consider moving him for pitching now, given that we have Pompey to replace him.

I guess I'm giving opposing GMs (save for Dave Stewart) some more credit than the dregs of our fanbase. No one is trading you a significant pitching asset for Pillar, or for a package in which he is a core piece. Therefore, keeping him at such a low salary for what he brings vs. Trading him for...a Hellickson type I guess.

I suppose what I'm attempting to convey is his value lies in the cheapness.

 

[phillipmike]

K-Rod to the Tigers for Javier Betancourt. Nice pen piece... I wonder if the Jays had anything comparable to offer.

 

[Longshot]

K-Rod to the Tigers for Javier Betancourt. Nice pen piece... I wonder if the Jays had anything comparable to offer.

Why do the Jays need K-Rod? They have Osuna and Sanchez, both of whom are almost infinitely cheaper.

 

[Mach85]

Why do the Jays need K-Rod? They have Osuna and Sanchez, both of whom are almost infinitely cheaper.

K-Rod physically assaulted his father in-law. A real closer has that kind of chutzpah.

 

[phillipmike]

Why do the Jays need K-Rod? They have Osuna and Sanchez, both of whom are almost infinitely cheaper.

Can never have too many pen arms. Plus there is discussion that you could move Sanchez and/or Osuna to the rotation. So you would need depth everywhere.

The 2015 Jays had a lot of luck in terms of health during the season everywhere but mainly in the rotation. No significant injuries in the rotation (Stroman was in ST) which is unheard of. I would prepare for injuries or ineffective pitching. I would have Sanchez in long relief having him ready to step in as the 6th starter when someone is hurt or doesnt pitch well. In the long term i think we are better off having Sanchez start. 2016 can be a transition year for him in hope he will be a full time starter by the middle to the end of the season. But if your top 5 starters are performing well then you can easily move him to the back end of the pen if you need him.

Depth is key in all areas.

 

[Woodman19]

I'm not big on homer prone relievers with diminishing velocity.

 

[Longshot]

Can never have too many pen arms. Plus there is discussion that you could move Sanchez and/or Osuna to the rotation. So you would need depth everywhere.

The 2015 Jays had a lot of luck in terms of health during the season everywhere but mainly in the rotation. No significant injuries in the rotation (Stroman was in ST) which is unheard of. I would prepare for injuries or ineffective pitching. I would have Sanchez in long relief having him ready to step in as the 6th starter when someone is hurt or doesnt pitch well. In the long term i think we are better off having Sanchez start. 2016 can be a transition year for him in hope he will be a full time starter by the middle to the end of the season. But if your top 5 starters are performing well then you can easily move him to the back end of the pen if you need him.

Depth is key in all areas.

He's old. He makes a lot of money. He would have cost assets to acquire.

Sanchez and Osuna are young and cheap and probably better at this point in their careers. And if the Jays are successful in adding starting pitching (which they say they plan to) they won't need to use Sanchez in the rotation.

Plus, there are a number of bullpen arms on the free agent market that make way more sense for the Jays.

 

[Discoverer]

He's old. He makes a lot of money. He would have cost assets to acquire.

Sanchez and Osuna are young and cheap and probably better at this point in their careers. And if the Jays are successful in adding starting pitching (which they say they plan to) they won't need to use Sanchez in the rotation.

Plus, there are a number of bullpen arms on the free agent market that make way more sense for the Jays.

The equivalent asset from the Jays would have been someone like Richard Urena, at best. While I agree in general that they're better off going another direction, it's not like the Tigers paid a premium.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Urena is our Tulo replacement eventually. Just showed some power for the first time last year, hoping he figures switch hitting out.

Not like he's untouchable or anything but I'd rather hold onto him for longer than trade him for someone like K-Rod now.

 

[Bad News Benning]

I'm not big on homer prone relievers with diminishing velocity.

or paying a closer 10 million a year. It's just a dumb idea any way you look at it.

If we are going to spend that much on the bullpen i'd rather re-sign Lowe and sign Bastardo or Sipp.

 

[Eyedea]

That's true, but I believe there were strong rumours that Harvey would be gone too (I can absolutely see Boston dumping the rest of their farm on the Mets for him). That'd leave them with Degrom, Noah and Matsz, and I think Dickey and Hutch would slot in perfectly in there. Jays would also probably cover some of Dickey's salary, but if not, his 12 mil hit for 1 year would be more than offset by the cheap contracts of Pillar and Hutch.

Anyway, it's just a hypothetical based around speculation about Mets young pitchers being available, and the recent Jays-related tweets. I can't think of too many other scenarios where we move RA and Hutch for a good, young starter.

I could potentially see something like Travis+ for Quintana, but I also don't want Goins to be our starting 2B.

I guess I'm giving opposing GMs (save for Dave Stewart) some more credit than the dregs of our fanbase. No one is trading you a significant pitching asset for Pillar, or for a package in which he is a core piece. Therefore, keeping him at such a low salary for what he brings vs. Trading him for...a Hellickson type I guess.

I suppose what I'm attempting to convey is his value lies in the cheapness.

He'd definitely bring more than Hellickson in a deal. He's really not that much different from Kiermaier (less defensive value but more baserunning).

 

[Discoverer]

or paying a closer 10 million a year. It's just a dumb idea any way you look at it.

If we are going to spend that much on the bullpen i'd rather re-sign Lowe and sign Bastardo or Sipp.

Rodriguez is owed $9.5 million in total, but if he's anything but a disaster this year then he's owed $11.5 million over two years. I think people are over-stating the financial side of the deal. There's risk because of the size of the buyout, but it's not a bad contract.

 

[mikebel111*]

Urena is our Tulo replacement eventually. Just showed some power for the first time last year, hoping he figures switch hitting out.

Not like he's untouchable or anything but I'd rather hold onto him for longer than trade him for someone like K-Rod now.

Yeah Urena is the wildcard here IMO. People should keep an eye on him.

 

[Discoverer]

Urena is our Tulo replacement eventually. Just showed some power for the first time last year, hoping he figures switch hitting out.

Not like he's untouchable or anything but I'd rather hold onto him for longer than trade him for someone like K-Rod now.

I hope so too, but he's a long way off and it's not like he's a particularly high-end prospect. I wouldn't have made that deal either, but it's not like the price was astronomical or anything.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I could potentially see something like Travis+ for Quintana, but I also don't want Goins to be our starting 2B.



He'd definitely bring more than Hellickson in a deal. He's really not that much different from Kiermaier (less defensive value but more baserunning).

Oh I consider him and Kiermaier twins.

And that's very interesting. Could you name an example of a starter you see him being able to fetch hypothetically?

 

[Discoverer]

And that's very interesting. Could you name an example of a starter you see him being able to fetch hypothetically?

I'm having a hard time coming up with someone I see as a comparable... all I know is that it's not a replacement-level starter who has one year of control left at somewhere around $6 million. Yikes.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'm having a hard time coming up with someone I see as a comparable... all I know is that it's not a replacement-level starter who has one year of control left at somewhere around $6 million. Yikes.

I'll await whom you come up with.

 

[Eyedea]

Oh I consider him and Kiermaier twins.

And that's very interesting. Could you name an example of a starter you see him being able to fetch hypothetically?

Hypothetically, probably someone like Kyle Hendricks. If he's fetching a mid rotation guy it's probably in the mould of McHugh/Hendricks/Fiers, soft tossing with limited upside but solid ability and similar term.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Hypothetically, probably someone like Kyle Hendricks. If he's fetching a mid rotation guy it's probably in the mould of McHugh/Hendricks/Fiers, soft tossing with limited upside but solid ability and similar term.

That's a lot of value especially when one considers Leonys Martin (who's 2013 and 2014 are quite comparable with Pillar's 2015) fetched a decent (not great) reliever.

If a Hendricks or McHugh for Pillar based trade was offered to me, I'd scream yes into the phone, block the opposing GM's number so he couldn't change his mind, send someone to pick up Pillar is southern California and have him delivered to the doorstep of Wrigley/MM park.

 

[Discoverer]

Hypothetically, probably someone like Kyle Hendricks. If he's fetching a mid rotation guy it's probably in the mould of McHugh/Hendricks/Fiers, soft tossing with limited upside but solid ability and similar term.

Yeah, I like those guys as having comparable value.