Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?

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Empoleon8771

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Somebody still has to explain to me, rationally, how his career accomplishments differ from Phil Esposito before I think he belongs in the top 10.

I don't think it's unreasonable to put Crosby on that Mikita/Esposito/Lafleur level personally. I've always considered Esposito a little underrated.

I don't think Crosby is on track to end up the 4th best forward ever, but I do think he's on track to being in the group of players who are debatable for the 4th best forward ever. He doesn't have the separation on guys like Mikita, Jagr, Esposito and Lafleur, but he's sure on pace to end up at the same level as them.
 

Fantomas

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Somebody still has to explain to me, rationally, how his career accomplishments differ from Phil Esposito before I think he belongs in the top 10.

Esposito had 7 amazing seasons in a row. Between '68-'75 he was the best forward in the game. But outside of these 7 seasons there's quite a drop-off. He became great quite suddenly - after the trade from Chicago - and then really fell off when traded to New York.

What Crosby has on Esposito is sustained excellence. 14 seasons of it, in fact, which is twice more than Esposito. That's pretty significant.
 

Fantomas

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I don't think Crosby is on track to end up the 4th best forward ever, but I do think he's on track to being in the group of players who are debatable for the 4th best forward ever. He doesn't have the separation on guys like Mikita, Jagr, Esposito and Lafleur, but he's sure on pace to end up at the same level as them.

Funny that some Pens fans will argue to their death that Crosby is better than Ovechkin, but for some reason can't put up the same kind of fight regarding these other players.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Funny that some Pens fans will argue to their death that Crosby is better than Ovechkin, but for some reason can't put up the same kind of fight regarding these other players.

I think Ovi will also end up on that same level. I think Crosby has been better than Ovechkin overall, but it's mostly because of how I judge Crosby. I value Crosby's longer peak and higher points production to be better than Ovechkin's goal scoring personally. Whether you think Crosby or Ovechkin has been better depends completely on what you value in a player, because they have been very close objectively over their careers.
 

Voight

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Ok i guess ron francis and jagr were better than mario. Im not talking about putting great regular seasons based on his projected level of production qith an insufficient sample size. Im talking about his level of production over a huge sample size of near 1000 games qhich is larger than Bobby Orr's and many other greats. Per game stats are absolutely valid across large sample sizes to gauge the quality of a player and i'm using it to gauge a very long career with many games played. By your logic Bobby Orr and Mario shouldn't be considered all time great because they had injury problems and didn't play 2000 games like Howe and Messier. Saying Sid deserves the hart because he scored 56 points in 30 games is dumb because of sample size. Saying he is an all time great with one of the best ppg over 900 games is not.

1) Mario is better because of what he did when healthy/playing more than half the season. He outproduced and won more awards than both combined despite missing a ton of games. Jagr played 20 something years and still ended up with 1 less scoring title.

2) What I was getting at was the 2011 and 2012 seasons Crosby Stans like to bring up all the time. I don't give a crap if he was on pace to win the Art Ross. he didn't and played 1/2 as well as 1/4 of the season. I don't care if hes 6th all time in APG or whatever, the fact is he isn't 6th all time in assists and isn't anywhere close to it.

3) Not really, considering in the time they played while healthy they racked up numerous awards and points. What Orr did in 10 years for example, no other defensemen has been able to. Lemieux likewise was able to do plenty of damage in his healthy years.

4) Kent Nilsson is 10th all time in PPG. is he really a top 10 forward of all time? Or anywhere close to it? LaFontaine is 15th, great player but definitely not in the top 15 of all time. Same with Dale Hawerchuk who is 12th all time - HHOF player but 100% not a top 15/20 forward of all time.
 
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nhlfan9191

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I think Ovi will also end up on that same level. I think Crosby has been better than Ovechkin overall, but it's mostly because of how I judge Crosby. I value Crosby's longer peak and higher points production to be better than Ovechkin's goal scoring personally. Whether you think Crosby or Ovechkin has been better depends completely on what you value in a player, because they have been very close objectively over their careers.

Read enough of your posts over the years to know you’re clearly biased when it comes to this. Ovechkin was producing better while Crosby was in and out of the lineup during his concussion era. Injuries are part of the game. Ask Lindros. Crosby isn’t above Ovechkin. The Smythe and Cup guaranteed it last year.
 
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Voight

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Esposito had 7 amazing seasons in a row. Between '68-'75 he was the best forward in the game. But outside of these 7 seasons there's quite a drop-off. He became great quite suddenly - after the trade from Chicago - and then really fell off when traded to New York.

What Crosby has on Esposito is sustained excellence. 14 seasons of it, in fact, which is twice more than Esposito. That's pretty significant.

To be fair tho, Espo had point finishes of 7 and 9 playing for CHI, that was with Mikita getting the top minutes too. But good point.
 

Empoleon8771

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Read enough of your posts over the years to know you’re clearly biased when it comes to this. Ovechkin was producing better while Crosby was in and out of the lineup during his concussion era. Injuries are part of the game. Ask Lindros. Crosby isn’t above Ovechkin. The Smythe and Cup guaranteed it last year.

And like I've said over the years, one player being healthier than another player doesn't make them a better player. The Lindros comparison is nonsensical because Lindros never had the success that Crosby had. Ovechkin doesn't get credit for having **** seasons while healthy because Crosby was injured.

But again, that just comes down to how I value players. I don't view health being something that causes one player to be better than another. I like how you quoted my post saying "how you view them depends on what you value in a player" by saying "YOU'RE BIASED, OVECHKIN WAS HEALTHY!!!!!", as if that wasn't the entire point of my post.
 

nhlfan9191

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And like I've said over the years, one player being healthier than another player doesn't make them a better player. The Lindros comparison is nonsensical because Lindros never had the success that Crosby had. Ovechkin doesn't get credit for having **** seasons while healthy because Crosby was injured.

You’re to biased. Nothing you say should be taken with a grain of salt. And I’m a fan of either team.
 

shtorm2005

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All this rankings is a nonsense.
1) Ranking by eye test? Modern players face better defense and goalies, they're already better than old players in a vacuum. Simply put one NHL star in AHL and you will see same kind of dominance in dekes and scoring.
2) Ranking players by hardware? Nowadays, we have more talents per team and Salary Cap teams, it's almost impossible to dominate long enough and collect all trophies every year.
3) Ranking by points? There are different role players with different set of tools which gives different number of points, but they all can give equal contribution to the win. Like Datsyukian 2-way play could win against Crosby's offense any given day and vice versa. Saying, one is better than other just because of points it's unfair and biased view of things.
4) Ranking by ppg? Injuries aren't always unfortunate, sometimes, player's style of play will attract more attention and willing to hurt him, therefore, you can't expect them to continue the same way all season. If Lemieux wouldn't miss his games because of cancer, how you can be so sure, someone wouldn't break his legs later? Besides, helping your team over more games with less ppg is often more valuable than causing blowouts in half less games.
5)Ranking by peaks? Still not enough. Elite players at their peak can easily destroy and dominate each others. Peaks are too high and often don't happen in same time for different players, therefore, for each peak is different context. Peaks with different context (League's scoring, team's performance, other players slump years), are different.

You can argue Crosby's 4 all time, but after 3rd place, it goes by tiers, he might easily share 4th place with many others players.
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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Who knows by the time he is done. He was on pace last year to score over 40 points in the playoffs but they lost in the 2nd round. If him and Guentzel pick up where they left off last year and Pens start winning more cups(not iust referring to this year but current window) Crosby could be near the top in playoff scoring and with 5 cups..possibly 3 or 4 Conn Smythes.

And who knows maybe he decides to treat one regular season like its the playoffs and he wins another ART(anyone ignoring that he would have at least a few more if not for those injuries is hard to take seriously). If anything if he never got hurt we probably wouldn't see any comparisons to OV(most have him higher anyway with missing way more games). He'd have a few hundred more points. People were saying Crosby was done when he was putting up 85 points for a few seasons in a row. While OV had 3 seasons in the 60s...2 in the 70s...low 80s. No 90 point season in a long time.

Id like to see OV compared to another winger...its not fair to him to compare him to Crosby.
 
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Tripod

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Sid has been the best player of this era. His consistency is what has separated him from others this era.

But he still was only to have 2 Art Ross wins in 10 healthy seasons. Does that matter when you start looking at all time stuff when others have 5 Art Ross wins?
 

wetcoast

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Sid has been the best player of this era. His consistency is what has separated him from others this era.

But he still was only to have 2 Art Ross wins in 10 healthy seasons. Does that matter when you start looking at all time stuff when others have 5 Art Ross wins?


Should it?

Or instead of just looking at some stuff, ie trophy counting perhaps its better to look at the complete picture with stuff like

How many points does player X score during certain periods of time and where that ranks.

Winning an Art Ross is great, winning 2 even better but is it really better than a guy who consistently is in the top 10 in scoring in his career?

Crosby has been in the top 10 in scoring for 11 of his 14 NHL seasons and has scored more points both in the playoffs and regular season over those 14 seasons.

How many players can say that?

Off the top of my head Gretzky is the only other guy that can say that right?
 

Tripod

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Should it?

Or instead of just looking at some stuff, ie trophy counting perhaps its better to look at the complete picture with stuff like

How many points does player X score during certain periods of time and where that ranks.

Winning an Art Ross is great, winning 2 even better but is it really better than a guy who consistently is in the top 10 in scoring in his career?

Crosby has been in the top 10 in scoring for 11 of his 14 NHL seasons and has scored more points both in the playoffs and regular season over those 14 seasons.

How many players can say that?

Off the top of my head Gretzky is the only other guy that can say that right?
Again, I credited Sid with his consistency. I always have.

But like I said, when the guy has 2 scoring titles in 10 healthy years, can you put him top 4 of all time? I can see why some say no.
 

wetcoast

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Again, I credited Sid with his consistency. I always have.

But like I said, when the guy has 2 scoring titles in 10 healthy years, can you put him top 4 of all time? I can see why some say no.

Who is the 4th forward then after Wayne, Mario and Mr Hockey?
 

Midnight Judges

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2 Art Rosses is definitely underwhelming for a C who relies so heavily on secondary assists and isn't asked to play defense or PK.
 
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daver

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Sid has been the best player of this era. His consistency is what has separated him from others this era.

But he still was only to have 2 Art Ross wins in 10 healthy seasons. Does that matter when you start looking at all time stuff when others have 5 Art Ross wins?

Nope, because two players with one Ross between them are above the two players with 5 Art Ross wins.
 

topshelf15

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Who knows by the time he is done. He was on pace last year to score over 40 points in the playoffs but they lost in the 2nd round. If him and Guentzel pick up where they left off last year and Pens start winning more cups(not iust referring to this year but current window) Crosby could be near the top in playoff scoring and with 5 cups..possibly 3 or 4 Conn Smythes.

And who knows maybe he decides to treat one regular season like its the playoffs and he wins another ART(anyone ignoring that he would have at least a few more if not for those injuries is hard to take seriously). If anything if he never got hurt we probably wouldn't see any comparisons to OV(most have him higher anyway with missing way more games). He'd have a few hundred more points. People were saying Crosby was done when he was putting up 85 points for a few seasons in a row. While OV had 3 seasons in the 60s...2 in the 70s...low 80s. No 90 point season in a long time.

Id like to see OV compared to another winger...its not fair to him to compare him to Crosby.
So much this
 
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wetcoast

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Funny that some Pens fans will argue to their death that Crosby is better than Ovechkin, but for some reason can't put up the same kind of fight regarding these other players.

Not a Pens fan but only Jagr has 11 top 10 point finishes like Crosby does of the guys mentioned.

Lafleur, Espositio and Miktia all have been passed by Crosby for some time now.
 
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