Is Philly a Sixers or Flyers Town?

[Sawdalite]

So according to Forbes team valuations:

Eagles: $2.5 billion (2016)
Phillies: $1.65 billion (2017)
Sixers: $800 million (2017)
Flyers: $720 million (2016)

That's probably a reasonable reflection of the teams' relative popularity.

The way I understand it, the criteria that makes up Franchise Values would show that Local Popularity is not a driving force on their worth.

Major drivers would be: Huge (Multiple) Network Contracts that run for years... Local Media Rights and Broadcast/Cable setups... Cost for an Expansion to enter League that gets shared League Mambers... Share of Revenue to League from endorsements... Revenue share from League associated Merchandise... Value of League Teams recently sold... Projected Cost the particular Team based on Location and current Assets... Yada, Yada, Yada.

Overall NFL Revenue and General Team Sale Values alone make the Eagles worth insane money... MLB and NBA massive Multi-Network Contracts alone give the Phillies and Sixers a great boost over the Flyers who are in a 'Niche Sport' that not very long ago came off of a National Network Contract where the NHL literally had to pay the Network to put out their Games for their Fans to see... TBH, IMO it is a wonder that the Flyers are that close to the Sixers, Phillies and Eagles.

... In Boston the Sox are arguably more popular than the N.E. Patriots... but according to that same Forbes list the Pats are at $3.4B and Sox are $2.7M.

The Sixers may and probably always will be worth more than the Flyers... but IMO that doesn't mean that they are more popular.

 

[Sawdalite]

Another way to look at things is to compare where the teams rank in value in their respective sports:

Flyers #6
Phillies #9
Eagles #10
Sixers #25

This method makes even less sense.

 

[Lotusflower]

Honest question do people voting even live in the city itself?

Embiid played 30 games this year and had the city buzzing harder than the Flyers have in the last 5 years combined

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Honest question do people voting even live in the city itself?

Embiid played 30 games this year and had the city buzzing harder than the Flyers have in the last 5 years combined

I work in Center City. I voted Sixers, but I really don't think it's clear cut. Peak is heavily weighted toward the Sixers. Consistency heavily the other way.

The Sixers were relevant for 3-4 of the years between 1985 and May 2013, when most people then proceeded to spend 3 years debating whether Sam Hinkie was Satan while still not watching. Of course Embiid being the personality he is will change things for the duration of his healthy career, but it doesn't change history.

 

[Lotusflower]

I work in Center City. I voted Sixers, but I really don't think it's clear cut. Peak is heavily weighted toward the Sixers. Consistency heavily the other way.

The Sixers were relevant for 3-4 of the years between 1985 and May 2013, when most people then proceeded to spend 3 years debating whether Sam Hinkie was Satan while still not watching. Of course Embiid being the personality he is will change things for the duration of his healthy career, but it doesn't change history.

I live uptown but work in CC also and im just in the mix a lot all over.

Even with the Sixers being terrible the last few years theyve been more relevant during the tank than in the last 6-7 years of the Iverson era.

Ive had/overheard more conversations about Sixers basketball since the tank started than Ive had about the Flyers going all the way back to just after we went to the Final.

The city was buzzing a little when Richards and Carter were traded and around the times we made the playoffs but I'd venture to say the city was more hype on Embiid's 30 games than either of the Flyers' recent playoff runs.

To be honest much of the Flyer fanbase comes from the burbs,South Jersey, and DE. When the Flyers are good the buzz is palpable in the city but much of it leaves when the games are over.
When the Sixers are good they bring in the same crowds but the buzz stays heavy in the city proper because more people follow basketball in the city limits.

As some posters have mentioned NBA basketball is really bandwagon and Philly being a bandwagon sports town hurts a team like the Sixers.

I dont expect Embiid to be healthy for a long time next year (Philly brand pessimism) but if Simmons is, this poll will look silly come wintertime.

 

[PALE PWNR]

When you say the "City was buzzing" during January when Embiid was playing, what you're really saying is, "After 3 years of doing nothing but losing the Sixers finally have a tangible result of 'the process' playing. So the mainstream media is going to do nothing but shove that story down your throat to distract you from the fact the Eagles haven't won a playoff game in a decade"

Mike Missanelli gets on the radio and says Flyers fans shouldn't have gone to the last game of the year and cheered them on and doesn't get the raising your sticks with respect towards the fans at the end of the season thing out of one side of his a-hole of a mouth. But is still 100 pct on board with a team tanking away for the last 3 years and going out to support them through all of that on the other side. You could get Sixers tickets for less than a dollar a game for 10 years and all the sudden people care now? No, the media in the city directed the conversation towards the Sixers because they decided to tank and wouldn't shut up about it because it's an easier sport to talk about and sell to a casual fan than hockey or baseball. But do they have more fans? Are they more popular? Please. Basketball fans are as fickle as they come. The same guy who was a Bulls fan in the 90s, was a Sixers fan in the late 90's/early 2000s, is the same fan that became a Lakers fan after that, is the same fan that was a Heat and now a Cavalier or Golden State or OKC fan now. The Sixers will never enjoy the popularity that the Flyers have because the nature of the sport is super star driven, and even if you get one of those, the length of his career is a limiting factor on how long he can carry a team to be successful and ultimately how long the team can be popular.

You don't understand the fundamental definition of the word popularity if you think the Sixers are anywhere close to as "popular" as the Flyers in this town. There might be times when Allen Iverson, or Joel Embiid, or Charles Barkley, or Dr. J touch that popularity but the Sixers never do, and no they are not synonymous.

 

[Hurricane28]

Honest question do people voting even live in the city itself?

Embiid played 30 games this year and had the city buzzing harder than the Flyers have in the last 5 years combined

Agree. I live across the river from Philly and all people would talk about was Embiid, Simmons, and Saric. They will own this town if Wentz doesn't live up to expectations

 

[Hurricane28]

Missanelli on Monday was delusional and the callers guaranteed are blind sheep to the Eagles who have been mediocre ever since McNabb left. The double standard and hypocrisy is astounding

 

[WIP CALLER]

Philly itself is Sixers over flyers because of demographics in the city. but the suburbs lean majorly towards the flyers and it's not even close.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I live uptown but work in CC also and im just in the mix a lot all over.

Even with the Sixers being terrible the last few years theyve been more relevant during the tank than in the last 6-7 years of the Iverson era.

Ive had/overheard more conversations about Sixers basketball since the tank started than Ive had about the Flyers going all the way back to just after we went to the Final.

The city was buzzing a little when Richards and Carter were traded and around the times we made the playoffs but I'd venture to say the city was more hype on Embiid's 30 games than either of the Flyers' recent playoff runs.

To be honest much of the Flyer fanbase comes from the burbs,South Jersey, and DE. When the Flyers are good the buzz is palpable in the city but much of it leaves when the games are over.
When the Sixers are good they bring in the same crowds but the buzz stays heavy in the city proper because more people follow basketball in the city limits.

As some posters have mentioned NBA basketball is really bandwagon and Philly being a bandwagon sports town hurts a team like the Sixers.

I dont expect Embiid to be healthy for a long time next year (Philly brand pessimism) but if Simmons is, this poll will look silly come wintertime.

I don't disagree with anything you said. My only point was that the Sixers spike harder in both directions. If you take the long view, I could see why someone would say Flyers even if I don't agree with it because I define popularity differently.

 

[Hurricane28]

Even with the playoff run last year, people were still talking about "The Process". It was different when the Sixers were floating in mediocre land, but ever since Sam Hinkie and "Trust The Process" became the thing, it has been a Sixers town.

 

[Embiid]

Philly itself is Sixers over flyers because of demographics in the city. but the suburbs lean majorly towards the flyers and it's not even close.

Pretty much this ^

If everything falls into place next season...this city will be a Sixers town. Unlike the Flyers ...the Sixers have an excellent coach, players that have shown immense growth, a budding superstar barring continued health setbacks, two really strong core pieces in Saric and Simmons, cap flexibility, high and numerous draft picks, and a true young and up and coming team that is fun to watch..even in losses. The Flyers right now can't even hold a candle to the Sixers...they have a lot of work still. Painful to think about it too much.

 

[Sawdalite]

... Does temporary success translate to one of the Teams claiming it?

... Is a see-saw situation with one Team being ahead for many years and the other occasionally grabbing the brass ring acceptable to say that recent surge makes the surging Team with promise the one who claims the Town between the two?

 

[Sawdalite]

When you say the "City was buzzing" during January when Embiid was playing, what you're really saying is, "After 3 years of doing nothing but losing the Sixers finally have a tangible result of 'the process' playing. So the mainstream media is going to do nothing but shove that story down your throat to distract you from the fact the Eagles haven't won a playoff game in a decade"

Mike Missanelli gets on the radio and says Flyers fans shouldn't have gone to the last game of the year and cheered them on and doesn't get the raising your sticks with respect towards the fans at the end of the season thing out of one side of his a-hole of a mouth. But is still 100 pct on board with a team tanking away for the last 3 years and going out to support them through all of that on the other side. You could get Sixers tickets for less than a dollar a game for 10 years and all the sudden people care now? No, the media in the city directed the conversation towards the Sixers because they decided to tank and wouldn't shut up about it because it's an easier sport to talk about and sell to a casual fan than hockey or baseball. But do they have more fans? Are they more popular? Please. Basketball fans are as fickle as they come. The same guy who was a Bulls fan in the 90s, was a Sixers fan in the late 90's/early 2000s, is the same fan that became a Lakers fan after that, is the same fan that was a Heat and now a Cavalier or Golden State or OKC fan now. The Sixers will never enjoy the popularity that the Flyers have because the nature of the sport is super star driven, and even if you get one of those, the length of his career is a limiting factor on how long he can carry a team to be successful and ultimately how long the team can be popular.

You don't understand the fundamental definition of the word popularity if you think the Sixers are anywhere close to as "popular" as the Flyers in this town. There might be times when Allen Iverson, or Joel Embiid, or Charles Barkley, or Dr. J touch that popularity but the Sixers never do, and no they are not synonymous.

^^^ Excellent Post.

 

[Ruck Over]

I forget when exactly, but Big Daddy Graham had asked this same question on the overnight show sometime earlier this season, or maybe last playoffs(?). I called in cause it got my jimmies rustled.

Philly is definitely a bigger Flyers town, look at apparel on the street, common knowledge of the fan bases, game attendance, tv ratings. While the apparel is anecdotal, it feels like I see more Flyers gear in the CC, northern South Philly, neighborhoods more than Sixers gear.

The lack of talk on tv or the radio- there are very very few hosts who could hold an intelligent conversation, so we as fans have turned our back on them. Here, BroadStreetHockey, SonsofPenn, even the Jersey rag Courrier Post, does a lot better justice to Flyers coverage than any Philly mainstream outlet. I had an email back and forth with Jon Marks when he was still on 97.5 that it is embarassing for that station to broadcast the games, and not have on-air talent capable of speaking about the Flyers in a meaningful way. He had bragged he didn't, and wouldn't, care about the Flyers unless they were in the playoffs with a chance to win a round.

I visited Montreal once, during hockey season, almost became a Habs fan, didn't want to leave. Poutine.

 

[GKJ]

Why do you guys even bother with Missanelli? Dude's had the same shtick for 20 years.

 

[Phileeguy]

Okay, I'm gonna be "that guy" as a I voted "other" for the reason of that I think it's too close to call. I'm leaning towards Flyers, but not enough to warrant clicking the Flyers option before voting.

The Flyers have been generally a good product over the past quarter century or so. Not so for the Sixers. Outside a few good seasons with Iverson, the Sixers have been arguably the worst run franchise in this town in that ~25 years. And if you've got a bad product, interest is going to wane. Does that make Philly a bigger Flyers than Sixers town by default? I don't think I can say that.

But that waning interest is changing for the good with the Sixers, especially with younger fans. Maybe it's the cult-like nature of Process-trusters, but I generally get more buzz and reaction from fellow citizens about the Sixers than the Flyers when I talk to people. Heck, I was just at Han Dyansty in Old City yesterday (get the Dandan noodles) and was talking with the bartender there for a good 10 minutes about the Sixers.

But go back to the late 70s-80s. Both teams were good and put butts in seats. Hopefully, "The Process" pays dividends going forward, and we see the younger Flyers make strides and Hexy makes some shrewd moves and in a few years we've got 2 successful franchises and we can revisit this subject.

 

[Jack Straw]

I forget when exactly, but Big Daddy Graham had asked this same question on the overnight show sometime earlier this season, or maybe last playoffs(?). I called in cause it got my jimmies rustled.

Philly is definitely a bigger Flyers town, look at apparel on the street, common knowledge of the fan bases, game attendance, tv ratings. While the apparel is anecdotal, it feels like I see more Flyers gear in the CC, northern South Philly, neighborhoods more than Sixers gear.

The lack of talk on tv or the radio- there are very very few hosts who could hold an intelligent conversation, so we as fans have turned our back on them. Here, BroadStreetHockey, SonsofPenn, even the Jersey rag Courrier Post, does a lot better justice to Flyers coverage than any Philly mainstream outlet. I had an email back and forth with Jon Marks when he was still on 97.5 that it is embarassing for that station to broadcast the games, and not have on-air talent capable of speaking about the Flyers in a meaningful way. He had bragged he didn't, and wouldn't, care about the Flyers unless they were in the playoffs with a chance to win a round.

I visited Montreal once, during hockey season, almost became a Habs fan, didn't want to leave. Poutine.

I think it's safe to say that there are some neighborhoods in Philly where you would see way more Sixers gear than Flyers gear. You just probably don't hang out a lot in those places.

 

[Ruck Over]

I think it's safe to say that there are some neighborhoods in Philly where you would see way more Sixers gear than Flyers gear. You just probably don't hang out a lot in those places.

Eh, I frequent West Philly, my parents church that I sometimes attend is at 53rd and Chestnut. Granted, don't expect to see Sixers gear in church on Sunday though.

However, you're correct that I don't frequent the North East at all, like ever, not on purpose anyway. Is that a haven of Sixers' gear and fans?

When I drive north along Broad St. to Jenkintown, stopping from time to time to get a bite to eat or a splash of gas, those neighborhoods don't scream Sixers' pride, but hey, that's TEMPLE TERRITORY, #amirite?

Don't try to pigeon hole me dude. We don't know each other, something something butt cheeks. Said it was anecdotal.

 

[Lotusflower]

When you say the "City was buzzing" during January when Embiid was playing, what you're really saying is, "After 3 years of doing nothing but losing the Sixers finally have a tangible result of 'the process' playing. So the mainstream media is going to do nothing but shove that story down your throat to distract you from the fact the Eagles haven't won a playoff game in a decade"

Mike Missanelli gets on the radio and says Flyers fans shouldn't have gone to the last game of the year and cheered them on and doesn't get the raising your sticks with respect towards the fans at the end of the season thing out of one side of his a-hole of a mouth. But is still 100 pct on board with a team tanking away for the last 3 years and going out to support them through all of that on the other side. You could get Sixers tickets for less than a dollar a game for 10 years and all the sudden people care now? No, the media in the city directed the conversation towards the Sixers because they decided to tank and wouldn't shut up about it because it's an easier sport to talk about and sell to a casual fan than hockey or baseball. But do they have more fans? Are they more popular? Please. Basketball fans are as fickle as they come. The same guy who was a Bulls fan in the 90s, was a Sixers fan in the late 90's/early 2000s, is the same fan that became a Lakers fan after that, is the same fan that was a Heat and now a Cavalier or Golden State or OKC fan now. The Sixers will never enjoy the popularity that the Flyers have because the nature of the sport is super star driven, and even if you get one of those, the length of his career is a limiting factor on how long he can carry a team to be successful and ultimately how long the team can be popular.

You don't understand the fundamental definition of the word popularity if you think the Sixers are anywhere close to as "popular" as the Flyers in this town. There might be times when Allen Iverson, or Joel Embiid, or Charles Barkley, or Dr. J touch that popularity but the Sixers never do, and no they are not synonymous.

This is just the Hockey Fan's Napoleon Complex rearing its head. Classic case.
You dont have to tell me the Flyers have a large core fanbase. You dont have to tell me the NBA is a superstar driven league that's bandwagon by nature. I said that already in my post.

Just to drive this home I'll ask again, were you in the city at all during the months Embiid was playing? For those thirty games everywhere I went from South/SW/North/NE/West/even Fishtown/G town/Rox and Manayuk people were talking Sixers. It was awesome. Ive had a hard time in certain places even striking up a conversation in passing about the Flyers. The interest in the Sixers in the city is what I would call dormant but palpable meaning that, true to Philly form, people are apathetic if they know the team isnt good (which Hinkie and co basically admitted they would be at the start of the tank) but will flock once they see results. The team is on the rise, so they start to flock. Its the way this city works.

I love the Flyers because even if theyre bad there is a core that will still fill that building but by your logic the Sharks are more "popular" in the Bay than the Warriors and the Hawks are more "popular" in Chicago than the Bulls. The nature of the NBA leads to ebb and flow but to say hockey is more popular simply because they fill up the building is facetious. It ignores certain demographics that are less prominent in the burbs but massive in the city itself. In Chicago the Wirtz's have done a good job building back up the core fanbase and theyve filled that building consistently now for a while but much of the Hawks fanbase and fervor comes from the surrounding areas and leaves when the game is over. Popularity isnt just tickets sales. Its who's watching, listening, talking, and indeed hoping. Interest in the Warriors and Bulls have waned in the 2000's at times but ask the average Bay Area resident/Chicago native who theyre checking for and waiting on, they'll say Warriors or Bulls. When those teams are popular they lap the Sharks/Hawks. Philly is no different.

I agree with you the Philly sports media is garbage. The lack of Flyers coverage is criminal but I havent so much as looked at the Daily News sprts section in years. My observation comes from being in every part of the city talking with people. If guys like AI and Dr. J arent synonymous with the Sixers then I dont know what the word means. As if of course transcendent players dont bring the most interest. As if of course admittdly tanking wouldnt take the wind out of attendance. AI is an international icon, inspired a generation of ballplayers but nowhere is the fandom more fervent than here in Philly where he played...for the Sixers. As if any of the stars you mentioned would have that legendary status here if they played for the Lakers. Dudes in North Philly dont get replica Cru Thik tattoos simply because they like a player. They get them because that player played for the team in the city that they claim.They do it because that team and that player represents them. Synonymous is an apt description.

My 86 yr old grandmother asked me about Embiid and the Sixers. She doesnt watch sports whatsoever and couldnt name a single player to ever play for the Flyers if you put a gun to her head. Little kids on my friends street in the NE were playing outside just a couple days ago. One was Embiid, another was Saric, the third was Simmons but since he hadnt seen him play yet he was making up moves as he went along. That's popularity. The kind of buzz that ripples through the city and dominates the conversation. Dormant but palpable. I love the Flyers almost equally, I would love for there to be the same level of interest here but that's just not the case.

There's a sizable portion of the city that not only dont follow the Flyers but would be relatively indifferent even if they won the Cup.

That's not the truth for the Sixers.

 

[SuchySays]

Don't know anyone that cares about the Sixers.

 

[antman12]

it's a Sixers town. The flyers have a solid core fan base whereas the sixers are much more widespread.

I always have a nice laugh at people who say the basketball "product" is terrible right now. Stop it. Is there parity? No. But the level of baaketball and athletism on a night to night basis has never been higher.

 

[PHILOUDELPHIA]

i like all 4 teams, eagles would be king if a gun is held to my head.

i just would like to see CSN fixed, its a god awful sports network.

wish we could go back to prism

 

[WIP CALLER]

the Sixers are pretty invisible in the burbs. walk around bucks, Montgomery, or south jersey and you will rarely ever see Sixers gear. this year was the most I've seen since 01 and it still wasn't alot mainly just an embiid or Simmons shirt here or there. flyers gear is everywhere here though, you'll be hard pressed to go somewhere and not see flyers gear in the burbs. it's honestly almost as popular as eagles and Phillies gear. big contrast to the city itself. in the burbs, the flyers are probably tied with the Phillies maybe just below due to the popularity of kids leagues around here. Philly itself though is mainly a core base of fans while the other teams are more widespread. mike miss mainly just says this to troll the burbs listeners because he's right about the city itself. flyers are slightly below the Sixers in the city. but again it has all to do with demographics. kids in Philly don't have an opportunity to play hockey growing up and there's only like 2 or 3 rinks in the city. only one of those is even nice too. they never know the game really even exists. while in the burbs, most kids have a rink within 10 or 15 minutes and the parents that can afford for them to play hockey so of course it is more popular there. plus even if they dont play almost every kid knows someone that plays and therefore gets introduced to the game through friends. it just isnt like that in the city. if the question was what team is more popular in the metro area(including suburbs), having spent my entire life in both, then it's the flyers and it's not really close. the city itself is slightly more Sixers oriented while the suburbs are majorly more flyers oriented.

 

[Sawdalite]

the Sixers are pretty invisible in the burbs. walk around bucks, Montgomery, or south jersey and you will rarely ever see Sixers gear. this year was the most I've seen since 01 and it still wasn't alot mainly just an embiid or Simmons shirt here or there. flyers gear is everywhere here though, you'll be hard pressed to go somewhere and not see flyers gear in the burbs. it's honestly almost as popular as eagles and Phillies gear. big contrast to the city itself. in the burbs, the flyers are probably tied with the Phillies maybe just below due to the popularity of kids leagues around here. Philly itself though is mainly a core base of fans while the other teams are more widespread. mike miss mainly just says this to troll the burbs listeners because he's right about the city itself. flyers are slightly below the Sixers in the city. but again it has all to do with demographics. kids in Philly don't have an opportunity to play hockey growing up and there's only like 2 or 3 rinks in the city. only one of those is even nice too. they never know the game really even exists. while in the burbs, most kids have a rink within 10 or 15 minutes and the parents that can afford for them to play hockey so of course it is more popular there. plus even if they dont play almost every kid knows someone that plays and therefore gets introduced to the game through friends. it just isnt like that in the city. if the question was what team is more popular in the metro area(including suburbs), having spent my entire life in both, then it's the flyers and it's not really close. the city itself is slightly more Sixers oriented while the suburbs are majorly more flyers oriented.

Yes... when I asked about Philly I meant the Tri-State/Metro Area... Except for political responsibility/rule, I always assume Philly includes the PA/SouthJersey/Delaware Burbs.

... I agree completely with this Post... The Flyers attire worn in South Jersey would make one believe that the Flyers were challenging the Phillies... and maybe even the Eagles in popularity. The Flying 'P' and O&B is most everywhere you turn. There are pockets in South Philly and the NE in the City proper where one can say the same... In much of the City though, the Sixers are represented greatly, but by no means in the numbers the Media would have us believe.

As I listen to The Fanatic and (rarely) WIP and watch CSN... and hear pretty much 24/7 Sixers/NBA talk, with some Birds chatter sprinkled in for good measure, I'm put in mind of how the Fourth Estate and over the air and Cable Media... and Celebrity/Personalities... can skew perception... Listen to them and you think that the Sixers are all that the Local SportsWorld is interested in... and talking about... and care about... when in fact, it is merely what they are leading people to talk about, and basically all we are hearing about on Radio and Cable/TV.

... The Fanatic/WIP/CSN is like the Great and Powerful OZ... It is what they say it is... because they say it is. In reality, it is not.

The Sixers are having a resurgence of late, led by hope and promise... after long stretches of little hope and only the promise of tanking... with health and expected development -- much like with the Flyers Prospects -- they may become what they expect them to become... and they may gain in popularity again... but as of now, as it has been in the past few decades, it is the Flyers who arguably drive the Fall through Spring Sports and their Fans in the Area.