Is Nick Lidstrom underrated or overrated

[Dr Jan Itor]

Orr
Bourque
Lidstrom

Properly rated.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The only thing Lidstrom did right was be lucky enought to play his whole career with Detroit, who had elite hall of fame players or very good players that Lidstrom could leetch off of. If Lidtrom had played his whole career in Edmonton instead, he wouldn't have been half the player he is considered to be today...

Wow, you're an idiot. Lidstrom improved the guys he played with. He, in his 40s, was still a legitimate top pairing defenseman who made benders like Ian White look like viable top 4 guys. Lidstrom made other players better not the other way around. He, along with guys like Murphy, Konstantinov, Rafalski, etc, made the offense go. When the Wings were dominant as f***ing hell, it started from the back end and Nick Lidstrom was the engineer of that.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Gretzky could produce despite the situation. It doesn't matter which team you put him on he still wins multiple Art Ross trophies. But Kurri never touches 1000 career points without playing with Gretzky. Lidstrom is the Kurri of the Detroit Red Wings...

No, he's f***ing not. The Wings were top heavy, yes. But like 07-08? They did all that damage with a top line of Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom which was amazing. You go down to the second line Franzen-Filppula-Hudler? That's an okay second line. That's not "Holy shit we have so much talent". Third line, Samuelsson-Helm-Cleary (or similar), and the grind line.

The Wings were not an offensive juggernaut because they were loaded with top end forwards after the lockout. They dominated the game because guys like Lidstrom, Rafalski, Schneider, and co were able to conduct the offense from the back end.

Holmstrom was able to score as many goals as he did because Lidstrom was so damn good at getting his shot to the net for Homer to re-direct it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Hasek played on a few...

Yeah, don't bring Hasek into a "never played on a bad team". Damn, he singlehandedly made Buffalo a mediocre team and almost drug their asses to a Cup (arguably probably should have if they called the rule book right). Hasek is quite simply the greatest goaltender of all time.

 

[ricky0034]

I see a lot of rating him #2 at the position all-time and also a lot of "oh but Pronger had a better peak than him!"

overall I guess it probably averages out to being somewhat properly rated

 

[Fear]

I think his offensive ability is a bit overrated but overall he's rated pretty accurately as somewhere between 3-5 best defenseman of all time.

For example, Erik Karlsson at his absolute peak was way better offensively than Lidstrom ever was, but also way worse defensively. Overall probably a similar impact, but Karlsson only really was there for 2 years and Lidstrom was there for 12.

 

[MadLuke]

Here's a list of the Detroit Redwings roster during Lidtrom's entire run from 19991-91 to 2011-12: NHL Stats
9 Hall of fame players besides Lidstrom amongst the top 30 point producers during that timeframe. Plus a lot of other very good players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg as well, who still could end up going to the Hall of fame...

He is the only elite constant in that group too in games played:

Lidstrom: 1,564
Draper: 1,137
Holmstrom: 1,026
Yzerman: 920
Maltby: 908
Fedorov: 831

The Wings went into 3 different phase at least during Lidstrom presence and there were always good.

90-91: 76 points

Season	PTS%	Finish	Playoffs
2021-22	of 8
2020-21	0.429	7th of 8
2019-20	0.275	8th of 8
2018-19	0.451	7th of 8
2017-18	0.445	5th of 8
2016-17	0.482	7th of 8
2015-16	0.567	3rd of 8	Lost NHL First Round
2014-15	0.61	3rd of 8	Lost NHL First Round
2013-14	0.567	4th of 8	Lost NHL First Round
2012-13	0.583	3rd of 5	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
2011-12	0.622	3rd of 5	Lost NHL Conference Quarter-Finals
2010-11	0.634	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
2009-10	0.622	2nd of 5	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
2008-09	0.683	1st of 5	Lost Stanley Cup Final
2007-08	0.701	1st of 5	Won Stanley Cup Final
2006-07	0.689	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Finals
2005-06	0.756	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Quarter-Finals
2003-04	0.665	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
2002-03	0.671	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Quarter-Finals
2001-02	0.707	1st of 5	Won Stanley Cup Final
2000-01	0.677	1st of 5	Lost NHL Conference Quarter-Finals
1999-00	0.659	2nd of 4	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
1998-99	0.567	1st of 4	Lost NHL Conference Semi-Finals
1997-98	0.628	2nd of 6	Won Stanley Cup Final
1996-97	0.573	2nd of 6	Won Stanley Cup Final
1995-96	0.799	1st of 6	Lost NHL Conference Finals
1994-95	0.729	1st of 6	Lost Stanley Cup Final
1993-94	0.595	1st of 6	Lost NHL Conference Quarter-Finals
1992-93	0.613	2nd of 6	Lost NHL Division Semi-Finals
1991-92	0.613	1st of 5	Lost NHL Division Finals
1990-91	0.475	3rd of 5	Lost NHL Division Semi-Finals
1989-90	0.438	5th of 5
1988-89	0.5	1st of 5	Lost NHL Division Semi-Finals

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With a clear uptick when he arrive and downtick when he leave, timing was perfect, but does the transition from the Coffey-Konstantivov-Yzerman to the Chelios-Murphy-etc.. group and than to the Kronwall-Rafalsky-Datsyuk one get has smooth without that constant key piece ? Lidstrom is maybe a big reason of that unstop continuous high success.

Sometime player make constantly co-teammate look a bit better than they are (Markov made a series of D make a lot of money leaving Montreal and underachieved on arrival for a lesser example) and can look like they had more help than they did a little bit.

Advanced metric are not easy to get from Lidstrom prime, but old Lidstrom:


From 2007-2008 to 2009-2010 at 5v5 detroit
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

With Lidstrom on the ice...: 195 GF, 123 GA, 61.32% GF
Without Lidstrom on the ice: 262 GF, 273 GA, 48.97% GF

When Lidstrom was on the ice the wings were playing like a different team all together (no team in that 3 season goes above a GF of 55%) and where below mediocre with him on the bench.

He had obviously extremely quality of teammate (Raflasky-Datsyuk-Zetterberg), but was also facing often the opposition first line and was getting the hardest zone start of is team assignment.

 

[The Red Line]

The only thing Lidstrom did right was be lucky enought to play his whole career with Detroit, who had elite hall of fame players or very good players that Lidstrom could leetch off of. If Lidtrom had played his whole career in Edmonton instead, he wouldn't have been half the player he is considered to be today...

Lol I'm guessing Lidstrom personally made your team look very stupid many times for you to whine with this level of bitterness.

 

[Dingo]

Orr
Bourque
Harvey
Shore
Potvin
Lidstrom
Fetisov
Kelly
Robinson
Chelios

peak year
72
89
40
81
06
84
55
78
91

roughly speaking?

 

[Voight]

Underrated when people say he’s not exactly this

He isnt though.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The only thing Lidstrom did right was be lucky enought to play his whole career with Detroit, who had elite hall of fame players or very good players that Lidstrom could leetch off of. If Lidtrom had played his whole career in Edmonton instead, he wouldn't have been half the player he is considered to be today...

Horrible take even for you lmao

 

[nowhereman]

I think he's ever so slightly overrated in the sense that I see his name thrown around as the defacto #2 defenseman of all time and sometimes (shudder) #1, when he's in the mix with several other defensemen. In fact it wouldn't be outlandish to rank him outside of the top 5, depending on how you feel about Potvin and/or Fetisov. That said, he's one of the very best and in my personal top 5.

1. Orr
2. Bourque
3. Harvey
4. Lidstrom
5. Shore

HM: Potvin, Fetisov

 

[JoelWarlord]

Maybe you could say very slightly overrated given that he's usually seen as the consensus #2 defenceman all time when you can argue Bourque/Harvey/Fetisov/Shore and potentially some others, but that's a pretty small thing.

 

[heretik27]

Most rate him top 5 all time which I'd say is pretty fair. He was one of the best dmen of all time for sure.

 

[newfy]

Yeah, it is. It's a blatant career achievement award.

Weber that year had Lidstrom beat in every possible category and some werent even close.

Weber had 30 ES points to Lidstrom's 22
+7 vs -2
113 blocks vs 92
211 hits vs 92
62 takeaways vs 33
7.1 CFrel vs 0.3
2.3 GA/60 vs 3.8
5.5 defensive point shares vs 3.3
10.1 point shares vs 9.5

Its a blatant career achievement award? Weber got robbed? The guy didnt even have the second most first place votes and youre going to act like Lidstrom robbed him lol. Your points are just cherry picked stats to make a weak argument. If anyone got robbed it was Chara, which he didnt, and it was an extremely close race between the 3.

Lidstrom outscored Weber, who gives a f*** about even strength points. The game is played on special teams too.

Plus minus, once again dumb point. I wonder how different Lidstroms would be playing with Suter and infront of Rinne instead of Joey McDonald for 15 games or a washed up, ready to retire Osgood for 11? One had a .916 save percentage while they were on the ice, the other had a .902. How does that impact plus minus?

Blocked shots? You block shots when your team doesnt have the puck. Lidstrom was much better at getting the puck to his forwards and out of his end. One of the best ever in transition and killing rushes before they end up in his end for a shot against. Not the stat you think it is.

Hits? Cool, Weber is more physical. Doesnt mean a thing about how good you are defensively. If they tracked poke checks I'm sure Lidstrom blows Weber out by a bigger margin

Corsi for relative? Lidstrom never got to fall back on a partner like Suter to help with those numbers.

Weber didnt even have the best defensive point shares on his pairing LOL. And do you really think point shares actually paint the whole story? Like Weber had 0.6 more point shares and that makes it a travesty that he didnt win. Go check out the point shares on Ehrhoff or Visnovsky that year and tell me how they should have finished higher in Norris voting than Weber if it is such a great stat. Those guys didnt have the help that he did either

You literally just went to hockey reference and picked out random stats to try to paint some picture that didnt exist. Weber wasnt the best defensive player on his pairing. Lidstrom and Chara were, by far, and they got more first place votes because of it. The voting was only close because of how many times Weber was voted as the first loser. Maybe you should argue about how Suter got robbed because he was less flashy than the big hitting, big shot partner he had, even though he performed better in a lot of categories.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Its a blatant career achievement award? Weber got robbed? The guy didnt even have the second most first place votes and youre going to act like Lidstrom robbed him lol. Your points are just cherry picked stats to make a weak argument. If anyone got robbed it was Chara, which he didnt, and it was an extremely close race between the 3.

Lidstrom outscored Weber, who gives a f*** about even strength points. The game is played on special teams too.

Plus minus, once again dumb point. I wonder how different Lidstroms would be playing with Suter and infront of Rinne instead of Joey McDonald for 15 games or a washed up, ready to retire Osgood for 11? One had a .916 save percentage while they were on the ice, the other had a .902. How does that impact plus minus?

Blocked shots? You block shots when your team doesnt have the puck. Lidstrom was much better at getting the puck to his forwards and out of his end. One of the best ever in transition and killing rushes before they end up in his end for a shot against. Not the stat you think it is.

Hits? Cool, Weber is more physical. Doesnt mean a thing about how good you are defensively. If they tracked poke checks I'm sure Lidstrom blows Weber out by a bigger margin

Corsi for relative? Lidstrom never got to fall back on a partner like Suter to help with those numbers.

Weber didnt even have the best defensive point shares on his pairing LOL. And do you really think point shares actually paint the whole story? Like Weber had 0.6 more point shares and that makes it a travesty that he didnt win. Go check out the point shares on Ehrhoff or Visnovsky that year and tell me how they should have finished higher in Norris voting than Weber if it is such a great stat. Those guys didnt have the help that he did either

You literally just went to hockey reference and picked out random stats to try to paint some picture that didnt exist. Weber wasnt the best defensive player on his pairing. Lidstrom and Chara were, by far, and they got more first place votes because of it. The voting was only close because of how many times Weber was voted as the first loser. Maybe you should argue about how Suter got robbed because he was less flashy than the big hitting, big shot partner he had, even though he performed better in a lot of categories.

Pick any stat you want. There isn't a single one Lidstrom was better in except racking up a ton of PP points.

 

[Gurglesons]

Most people view him as the 2nd or 3rd best defenseman of the modern era. I agree.

 

[Gurglesons]

The only thing Lidstrom did right was be lucky enought to play his whole career with Detroit, who had elite hall of fame players or very good players that Lidstrom could leetch off of. If Lidtrom had played his whole career in Edmonton instead, he wouldn't have been half the player he is considered to be today...

lol. Wow. Lidstrom is basically the template for modern defensemen.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I think it depends. It's hard to overrate Lidstrom because I think he's in the top 5-6 defensemen range (around Bourque or Potvin)...but those who say he's clearly #2 of all time I think overrate him.

 

[newfy]

Pick any stat you want. There isn't a single one Lidstrom was better in except racking up a ton of PP points.

Even if that were true, the nuances of Lidstroms game arent exactly something that can be captured by stats to begin with. For any dman really. You want to use possession metrics while ignoring that Weber had a dman on his pairing that was basically his equal. You cant account for that in stats. Talking about relative corsi given the major difference in partners is dumb. Like I said, find me the stats for effective stick checking, or how easily Lidstrom knocked pucks out of the air at the offensive blue line. Youre not going to convince me that Weber was sooo much better defensively that it made up the difference of 14 points in their offense, we're talking about Nick Lidstrom here. You talk about racking up PP points like its a bad thing. Its actually a major portion of the game and those points directly correlate to the team winning games. And he racked up those extra points while not having a Suter to cover for him all the time

Plain and simple, Weber didnt have to do the defensive heavy lifting on his own pairing, forget about his team. Its the reason Lidstrom and Chara got more votes. He had a great season, he also got to do it with a Norris calibre dman playing with him 99% of the time. Lidstrom and Chara were the heavy lifters on their teams/pairings. You realise the effect that has on the stats youre talking about right? The voters realized it at the time and Suter/Rinne were a major discussion point that award season

 

[Pavels Dog]

Pick any stat you want. There isn't a single one Lidstrom was better in except racking up a ton of PP points.

So, he won the award on the same basis that most d-men have won the award in the last decade?

As someone actually watching him play, he was great right up until retirement. Last Norris wasn't a slam-dunk like most of the others, but it wasn't undeserved.

 

[Your old Jofa helmet]

He's the best defender (as the one who defends) of all-time. He has twice as more cups than Orr (and unlike Orr, he was not given a free final vs a new expansion team). Triple gold club, 7 Norrises, over 1000 points, Conn Smythe, never a liability due to unnecessary penalties, avoided injuries due to the smart way he played and higher hockey IQ than anyone.

The fact that some people still put Orr and/or Bourque above him definitely makes him severely underrated.

 

[Langdon Alger]

The only thing Lidstrom did right was be lucky enought to play his whole career with Detroit, who had elite hall of fame players or very good players that Lidstrom could leetch off of. If Lidtrom had played his whole career in Edmonton instead, he wouldn't have been half the player he is considered to be today...

Did he run over your dog or something?

 

[bobholly39]

Slightly overrated

Too many people around here say "2nd best D ever, top ~5-10 player ever". He's not to me. He lacks a peak. For peak as a defenseman, I don't think he's top 5. I think that hurts him. There's no season where he could have won the hart, nor even close really. I think that holds him back.

Now I know his prime and consistently is absolutely staggering, so I'm not dismissing that. But it's arguably not above Bourque's, who also has the peak for example.

top 5 D all time (maybe as high as 3, definitely not 2), and top ~20 player all-time. But he often gets ranked higher. So - slightly overrated

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The only defenseman better than him for sure is Bobby Orr.