Speculation: Is Mario the problem?

[Jaded-Fan]

I have a little experience with this as I am a Managing Director in a company that is a 50/50 joint venture - with a private owner and an industry organization. With the private owner offering much more day to day input than the hands-off Chairman of the Board who is also among the top directors in the industry organization.

I would say that the underlined part is key; even if I would put it differently. A good owner/Chairman of the board, asks you to consider alternatives and asks tough questions in order to make sure that your strategy is sound. As a GM/MD you are supposed to be much more in tune with the operational reality of the company you manage, so you stick to your strategy where you know you're right, but you certainly use ownerships input as a sounding board and inspiration when advise or suggestions are offered. A weak GM/MD will do what he/she thinks the board wants... a good GM/MD always looks to learn or take in new perspectives that might gain you an edge.

Of course my industry is entirely unrelated to the very public demands and pressures of pro sports (as well as the size of operation and I assume GM salary ), but the key management theme that is shared across virtually all industries is the necessity to put together a team where you get the right mix of complimentary abilities.
The Pens seems a top notch operation at the board and company infrastructure level, but below Shero it is not their table. That is Shero's responsibility. Of course.... if Shero is a problem, then that is the boards responsibility. I don't really think he is, but considering also KIRKs references to past defining moments in Shero's career, it is certainly time that management asks him to elaborate on why the management team and roster he has has put together deserves their trust.

To me good ownership has only one job, aside from making payroll and providing the resources to compete.

Hiring and firing and evaluating the GM.

That is the only fair evaluation of Mario's 'job' at this time.

 

[KIRK]

People who think Mario Lemieux's commitment is money and not winning clearly hasn't followed Mario Lemieux the last 30 years.

Who said that?

The only person I saw who came into the ballpark was Cassius, who noted Mario, after everything that happened, would understandably be hesitant to rock the boat on what is a team that makes the playoffs every year and is financially viable. I actually made a 'Mario Nutting' crack with the SARCASM SMILIE. Orby said an owner, even Mario, has to make sure his team is financially viable and, by implication, getting anything else (like holding Shero's feet to the fire) in terms of day to day involvement would be a bonus in this case.

So, I ask you again, who said Mario is in this for the money?

 

[JTG]

Who signs Shero's paycheck?

Ron Burkle

 

[KIRK]

I have a little experience with this as I am a Managing Director in a company that is a 50/50 joint venture - with a private owner and an industry organization. With the private owner offering much more day to day input than the hands-off Chairman of the Board who is also among the top directors in the industry organization.

I would say that the underlined part is key; even if I would put it differently. A good owner/Chairman of the board, asks you to consider alternatives and asks tough questions in order to make sure that your strategy is sound. As a GM/MD you are supposed to be much more in tune with the operational reality of the company you manage, so you stick to your strategy where you know you're right, but you certainly use ownerships input as a sounding board and inspiration when advise or suggestions are offered. A weak GM/MD will do what he/she thinks the board wants... a good GM/MD always looks to learn or take in new perspectives that might gain you an edge.

Of course my industry is entirely unrelated to the very public demands and pressures of pro sports (as well as the size of operation and I assume GM salary ), but the key management theme that is shared across virtually all industries is the necessity to put together a team where you get the right mix of complimentary abilities.
The Pens seems a top notch operation at the board and company infrastructure level, but below Shero it is not their table. That is Shero's responsibility. Of course.... if Shero is a problem, then that is the boards responsibility. I don't really think he is, but considering also KIRKs references to past defining moments in Shero's career, it is certainly time that management asks him to elaborate on why the management team and roster he has has put together deserves their trust.

Here's where 'til the end of time' citing the organizational meeting after the choke job against Boston does offer a valid critique of Mario (and ownership). Shero went into that meeting expecting to fight tooth and nail for Bylsma. He got a stamp of approval without the tough questions.

 

[KIRK]

Ron Burkle

1. Touche (sort of)

2. I trust you didn't disagree with my purpose in asking the question. As TR noted, ownership and most senior management is like your board. Shero is your managing director. The board can entrust the managing director to run things but still has a fiduciary responsibility to ask tough questions. Do you disagree, either in general or in this more specific case?

 

[KIRK]

The worst poster in HF history

Well, since I didn't say it, you must think I'm only 2nd worst.

Seriously, I honestly must have missed the words or not read into words the same as you did.

 

[Corvidae]

Clearly this is all Mario's fault. If it weren't for him the Penguins would be in another city and a bunch of yinzers wouldn't have a winning hockey team to complain about.

Seriously, now I've heard everything. Some of you need to become Sabre's fans for a week.

 

[Crozbar]

Now? Come to think of it, maybe it's not that off topic. Mario hired Shero to make this team tough to play against and then gave him the latitude to do it. It worked until he joined the chorus after that Long Island circus.

I think exactly this. That one point seemed to mark a trajectory right in to softville, didn't it? That +Sending a message to Matt Cooke sent a message to the whole team, and to some extent factored in to Shero's decisions, imo. You still have Orpik trying to be himself, but for the most part the rest of the team has no edge. And that's not going to win playoff games.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I don't think Mario is necessarily the problem, but he needs to be the one to fix it.

Also, when we won the Cup, in Mario's parade speech he said something along the lines of "in Pittsburgh, with our organization, we always want to have it as a family atmosphere"

And that's great. I want players to like playing here. I do think that's been taken it to far though.

 

[ColePens]

I love Mario and everything, but he's just the face of the ownership. I don't, for one second, believe he plays a prodigious role at all for this team. The guy is the face of the Pittsburgh Penguins. That's it.

I would never blame him for anything. He puts the people in power that should be. If they make enough mistakes they'll be gone.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

...
one thing that is kind of damning-- all the media reports this past offseason said that shero had that big meeting with ownership right before the press conference announcing extensions for the coaching staff. this meeting was basically supposed to determine the fate of bylsma and co. reports said shero went into the meeting prepared to fight tooth and nail to defend bylsma. but shero was surprised that ownership was already completely on board with extensions. that kind of sucks...

This is the thing that has made me curious about ownership's role and Shero's impartiality.

Even if everyone in that meeting has faith in the coaching staff, it is all of their responsibilities to ask tough questions and be critical in their assessments. Problems are inevitable when you have advocates or an echo chamber in that room.

 

[wolffy66]

I'd rather not see Mario go all Jerry Jones so I don't want him dictating to Shero BUT its getting close to time to hold Shero accountable for past seasons and what seems to be a roster thats not gonna be able to realistically compete for the cup.

 

[mpp9]

I love Mario and everything, but he's just the face of the ownership. I don't, for one second, believe he plays a prodigious role at all for this team. The guy is the face of the Pittsburgh Penguins. That's it.

I would never blame him for anything. He puts the people in power that should be. If they make enough mistakes they'll be gone.

I would imagine Burkle has better things to do with his time. So if this team embarrasses itself again this postseason, I would hope Mario does what is needed. I'd clean house. GM on down.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I love Mario and everything, but he's just the face of the ownership. I don't, for one second, believe he plays a prodigious role at all for this team. The guy is the face of the Pittsburgh Penguins. That's it.

I would never blame him for anything. He puts the people in power that should be. If they make enough mistakes they'll be gone.

Will they?

That is the question TTEoT was asking, which I parroted with this thread. If so why not yet? My God, you of all people have been pointing out the problems for a few years now. Surely they see the same things.

What are they waiting for?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Will they?

That is the question TTEoT was asking, which I parroted with this thread. If so why not yet? My God, you of all people have been pointing out the problems for a few years now. Surely they see the same things.

What are they waiting for?

Yeah, they will. When their image starts to become one that isn't about winning the cup being their top priority, they'll do something. That image can affect profit, you don't mess with the profit; the organization at least has an identity. Once the real media, not the Pittsburgh pets, starts to question it, they'll do something. As soon as they feel that the bottom line is threatened by the media pointing things out, unsatisfied fans (financially so), etc.

A bad Crosby, Malkin, team slump got the lines changed; getting swept while scoring 2 goals didn't do that. They've had excuses in the past, they don't right now and it's showing. They haven't won the cup since 09 or made the finals, and Crosby and Malkin are both playing right now.

It's just a matter of when, and that's probably after the next big embarrassment, playoff implosion or horrible losing streak.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's just a matter of when, and that's probably after the next big embarrassment, playoff implosion or horrible losing streak.

What exactly constitutes a "playoff implosion" though? You have some defending last year's playoff loss to the Bruins by crowing about getting to the ECF (ignoring the fact the Pens played the two worst possible teams, points-wise, you could have hoped for), so what is a playoff disappointment? A first round upset? A second round loss to a decent club?

It just seems like the coaching staff/GM have the kind of rope that unless they literally get swept out of the first round in embarrassing fashion, they're safe because anything more than that is not an "embarrassing loss".

 

[billybudd]

You know, a little off topic, but I noted this in another thread . . . right up until that circus, the Pens were the bully. We had guys who would beat you up. We had agitators who would hound your team's stars to the point that your agitators would be more concerned about our agitators than they were about Sid and Geno.

Then the circus happened. And, we heard all the whining about the state of the game and the refs and all of that bull****. We were the bully that finally got punched in the mouth and didn't know what to do and never really recovered.

Even last night. All the whining about Subban. I'm sitting there thinking to myself 'man, I wish we had a mother****** like that, like we used to'. Ruutu, old Matt Cooke would agitate. Malone, Roberts, and a bunch of others would kick your *** in real (i.e., non-staged) fights.

Now? Come to think of it, maybe it's not that off topic. Mario hired Shero to make this team tough to play against and then gave him the latitude to do it. It worked until he joined the chorus after that Long Island circus.

Mentioned that there might be a tiny bit of circumstantial evidence that some of the team's problems may involve Morehouse (Moorehouse?) earlier in the thread.

This is that "tiny bit."

When the team's marketing strategy and public persona are at odds with the product it puts out for public consumption, the job of squaring that circle begins and ends at his desk.

Rewind to 2011.

One day you've got Ray Shero making excuses for Matt Cooke's behavior, extolling that he's "tough to play against" and he's a good player even if he crosses the line sometimes...

a week later Long Island happens...

the owner writes a letter lamenting the lack of player safety...

and Shero's boss's boss (and the face of the brand) starts taking heat because his own players don't much contribute to that type of game. His club has the most fighting majors in the league and employs the consensus "dirties player in the league."

Overnight you've got upper management pulling a 180 on Cooke (giving him an ultimatum...15th time's the charm for some unkown reason) and saying "thank you sir, may I have another" when Kris Letang gets a bogus suspension on a routine check (a suspension that, according to Elliott Friedman, none of the other GMs liked...Hell, Burmistrov didn't like the suspension and he was the one who got hit)...

And a few short years later Ray Shero, who once had four (!) enforcer-types as every night players (Asham, Engo, Rupp, Godard), tells Bob McKenzie he wants to ban fighting.

While it's possible Lemieux asked for a change in course, he's always retreated from or ignored this type of external recognition (good or bad...see also statuegate).

Morehouse is from the Clinton school of PR, however. They don't teach anyone to think like that.

Like I said, circumstantial...tinfoil hat even...but not nothing.

1. Touche (sort of)

2. I trust you didn't disagree with my purpose in asking the question. As TR noted, ownership and most senior management is like your board. Shero is your managing director. The board can entrust the managing director to run things but still has a fiduciary responsibility to ask tough questions. Do you disagree, either in general or in this more specific case?

If the Penguins were a normal company, Shero would be something like the SVP/EVP of Ops/Business Operations/Product development or COO (pick any combination).

The managing directors would have been Ken Sawyer, then Moorhouse (however that's spelled).

Reason for this is Penguins probably have another guy at around Shero's level that handles marketing and sales, which General Managers aren't suited to oversee (Lamoriello was just reorganized out of that role in Jersey because, being a hockey guy and not a sales guy, he was doing a crap job overseeing that).

So you need the product strategist (Shero) and the sales strategist (some guy) reporting to the same guy for reasons of conflict resolution. If you have an active day-to-day owner, he can be that supervisor, but the Penguins don't.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

What exactly constitutes a "playoff implosion" though? You have some defending last year's playoff loss to the Bruins by crowing about getting to the ECF (ignoring the fact the Pens played the two worst possible teams, points-wise, you could have hoped for), so what is a playoff disappointment? A first round upset? A second round loss to a decent club?

It just seems like the coaching staff/GM have the kind of rope that unless they literally get swept out of the first round in embarrassing fashion, they're safe because anything more than that is not an "embarrassing loss".

Probably any of the above, they've burned through the good faith and excuses, and there has now been a repeat champion. If it's not a convincing performance in the finals then something will probably give. A moment to point this out after the last embarrassment, when Bylsma apparently got extended with no argument, Bylsma was mid breakdown and then J. Martin got hired. The rope got shortened, those aren't signs of the same old story or of clean sailing.

It's about their image changing, they don't have enough space left there to dick around with. The 2 goals still gets mentioned, the CEC crowd was mocking the team; they're at the edge of that embarrassment.

 

[Malkin112*]

Nothing is going to change before house is empty and they can't sell fan crap anymore. As long as Pens have Crosby that's not the problem. They are not going to risk all that by bringing someone like Therrien who could upset star players. So Bylsma is going to stay barring completely melt down and it's very hard to do because this crap division they are in.

 

[canadianguy77]

Mario's lively hood is the Penguins and I don't think he's a guy who puts a lot of thought into cementing his legacy. I'm pretty sure he views the Penguins as a serious business, and is primarily interested in making money. He's going to continue icing the same product as long as fans are willing to fill the seats. It's really as simple as that. Now on the other hand, if the Pens are swept in the 1st round, and Mario only gets gate-receipts from 2 games, we may see a change.

 

[hiptanaka]

did mario even earn that much money in his playing career? he seems like a dude with expensive tastes, i'm not familiar with any other investments or sources of income that he has. hes not like burkle who can afford to throw away millions of dollars.

Lemieux deferred about $50 million in owed salary to become majority shareholder of the team. The team's currently valued at almost $300 million, and if he owns 50%, he's worth about $150 million, short of any other notable sources of income.

He's no Burkle, but he's not doing too bad for himself, either.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Didn't Mario dictate the MT firing? (I guess that could go either way)

Didn't Mario push for the Hossa trade (that saw Sid's best friend go?)

I think there's some reason to feel like Mario is creating that atmosphere, but I also feel there's evidence that points the other way. I think he wants to win.

Didn't Mario also push for a change after the last playoff ousting? Shero basically begged to keep Bylsma's job.

How do people figure Mario is really behind the atmosphere right now?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

i dont necessarily think mario is part of the problem, just that its plausible. its basically just circumstantial evidence at this point-- mario as a player loved the country club atmosphere to a fault, and this current club seems too country-clubby. correlation doesn't equal casuality.

but hes so far removed from the on-ice team, its pretty hard to say what effect he has on the team itself. i know for a fact that byslma is a problem, i'm now starting to think that shero is a problem, but ownership... thats several degree of separation right there.

one thing that is kind of damning-- all the media reports this past offseason said that shero had that big meeting with ownership right before the press conference announcing extensions for the coaching staff. this meeting was basically supposed to determine the fate of bylsma and co. reports said shero went into the meeting prepared to fight tooth and nail to defend bylsma. but shero was surprised that ownership was already completely on board with extensions. that kind of sucks.

did mario even earn that much money in his playing career? he seems like a dude with expensive tastes, i'm not familiar with any other investments or sources of income that he has. hes not like burkle who can afford to throw away millions of dollars. the cup is great, but i have to imagine still looks at this operation as a money-making opportunity for him. i can see why he would want to play it safe and stick with the popular and relatively "successful" byslma. keep his iconic stars happy, keep winning a fair amount of games, have some respectable playoff runs, and keep putting people in the seats.

again, correlation does not equal causation. frankly it seems more like mario has pushed shero to be aggressive (which is concerning about shero but thats another thread), which is a good thing. but ownership's complete support of bylsma this offseason is concerning.

at this stage this is just interesting speculation. but if this team continues to stick with bylsma/shero and their "we only want players that want to be here" shtick, then maybe ownership is culpable.

As someone said, if he owns 50% of the team, he's likely in on some of the real estate dealings that was tied to the team as well to get the arena and the development around the arena, probably a few other business ventures with Burkle as well. He likes to keep his private life, private. It seems that way with his business life as well, only reason the Pens thing is common knowledge is because of his ties to the team as a player, etc.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Nope.
Mario has kindly given DB and RS the oppurtunity to build something special with lots of rope and they're screwing it up.

 

[Ola]

I think the Crosby situation is the problem.

A team like Pittsburgh should be monumentally confident and arrogant and what not. You should be afraid to play them, for the risk of being humiliated. Etc. Etc. Etc.

But you know, when you play Pittsburgh, when you see Pittsburgh play, it feels like, after hit is made, --the thought of "that could have been his career" is ubiquitous--.

And especially in the PO's when Pittsburgh play Boston or Philly.

The marginals are not big in this league with the cap. You need everything to be in place. And that has just not been the case for Pittsburg mentally.

I don't know what to do. I would really question the out-of-controll -- worst in the league -- cheap-shotting style Pittsburgh has been playing the last years with Cooke leading the way. The fact that nobody respects them of course makes pay-back more likely. A shake-up in terms of personell possibly could help. But its not easy.