Speculation: Is Mario the problem?

[Jaded-Fan]

CREDIT TO TTEoT FOR BRINGING UP THE IDEA IN ANOTHER THREAD. I think that it may be a topic worth exploring in its own thread.

I love Mario, as a human being and he is one of the best owners in sports. HOWEVER, just like Disco is overall a very good coach with a few blind spots which keeps him from being great, at least here, Mario has his handful of traits which keep the Pens from achieving what they could have achieved, both as a player and as an owner.

I have a very simple question for everyone. How confident are you with this team in the post season? 1/3 chance of a cup? 1/5 chance? 1/100? 1/1000? I am not at one out of a thousand but am close.

And if we can see the obvious problems do you not think that a guy who can see the ice like no other than maybe 3 or 4 others who ever played the game does not see the issues too? I can not believe that Mario believes that this team, coached as it is, constructed as it is as well, can or will win even a series let alone a cup. So if he knows that why no change?

I think that the answer is obvious. He sees this team as family and you do not fire family until and unless there is no other option and has not been for several years.

Click to read more...

 

[mpp9]

If we flame out again in the playoffs, and there aren't changes, then yeah, I'll start to blame him.

 

[Tender Rip]

I honestly think Mario is only a problem if you consider a hands off owner to be an issue. I do not at all believe in the "Mario wanted country club as a player and demands it also as an owner" dictum.

He has a GM who is entrusted with running the team. Eventually Mario and the board make decisions if they don't like the direction, but Shero seems to have a very wide mandate, and Mario seems very much like the kind of owner who stays clear of operational issues.

 

[IcedCapp]

Didn't Mario dictate the MT firing? (I guess that could go either way)

Didn't Mario push for the Hossa trade (that saw Sid's best friend go?)

I think there's some reason to feel like Mario is creating that atmosphere, but I also feel there's evidence that points the other way. I think he wants to win.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I honestly think Mario is only a problem if you consider a hands off owner to be an issue. I do not at all believe in the "Mario wanted country club as a player and demands it also as an owner" dictum.

He has a GM who is entrusted with running the team. Eventually Mario and the board make decisions if they don't like the direction, but Shero seems to have a very wide mandate, and Mario seems very much like the kind of owner who stays clear of operational issues.

I posted this with your thoughts firmly in mind.

What you describes is one factor of what makes a great owner. The only job an owner should have, even one with as great a hockey mind as Mario, is hiring and firing GMs.

It is that one job that I am addressing. Or at least putting pressure on the GM.

Overall I think that Mario is a great owner, as I think the Disco has the makings of a fairly great coach. But there are fatal flaws in each in my opinion that keep them, and the team, from greatness. I was speculating that Mario treats this team as family, which has its good side, look at the loyalty almost all who come here show, but there is a bad side too.

 

[KIRK]

Didn't Mario dictate the MT firing? (I guess that could go either way)

Didn't Mario push for the Hossa trade (that saw Sid's best friend go?)

I think there's some reason to feel like Mario is creating that atmosphere, but I also feel there's evidence that points the other way. I think he wants to win.

I relayed this story in another thread, from Andrew Conte's book on the Pens:

1. When the organization first discussed the idea, Shero basically talked about the risks but admitted that Hossa could help. Burkle said they owed it to the fans. Morehouse said 'if we're think we can win now, then let's go for it'. Mario basically said 'anything can happen in the playoffs, and Hossa can help you go further'.

2. Trade day . . . about 45 minutes before the deadline, Waddell calls Shero to say he'd like to conclude the deal with him after all. They hammer out the terms. It's like 15 minutes before the deadline. Shero has a 'soft deal' for a vet lined up already, in case this didn't happen. Shero calls Mario like 10 minutes before the deadline. They talk. Shero again talks about the risks and, per the book, comes across as reticent to be wrong. He talks about the advantages. Mario asks him what he wants to do. Shero basically comes across as a guy who doesn't want to be wrong, at which point Mario basically says 'Ray, I'm a risk taker. If I weren't, then I wouldn't own this team.' Ray Shero concludes the deal with Waddell about 3 minutes before the deadline.

So, Mario didn't just push for the deal. He pushed Shero to make a decision, to take a risk. And, yes, Sid's BFF went.

As for firing Therrien, also from Conte's book, ownership met with him in NY in early January 2009 to talk about the team's slump. They asked him what plans he had, if any, to improve the team or change the coach. Shero basically said 'I'm always looking for a deal to improve the team but haven't thought about replacing the coach'. Ownership told him he had their full confidence and support to do whatever needed to be done, including replacing the coach, who in fact was replaced like 5 weeks later. I'm not sure that counts as 'pushing' him to fire Therrien, although there may be other stories subsequent to this meeting out there.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

1) I don't buy that they're as "happy family" as they like to pretend they are. Things don't add up and the Pittsburgh media just says what they want them to.

2) I think there's a certain amount of wanting to win it their way and not wanting to lose something good. They won a cup with Bylsma ("their" way), they've had regular season success (to a historical level within the team), they've had serious injuries to handle and Bylsma did manage to keep the team functional during the injuries (regular season, it's all he knows). This team has had crisis after crisis since winning the cup. Shero seems cautious, someone kicking him in the ass to do something should render results. I don't even completely blame him for being cautious, his risky actions have blown up in his face (Parise, going all in) and the Crosby concussion cluster**** happened. I think sticking with Bylsma is a part of him being cautious.

If there is a management issue, it's beyond Mario, it's beyond Shero; it's all encompassing. Didn't Mario want Hossa acquired and Therrien gone? Maybe Mario should be more involved. Shero probably needs to be told to do things, tell him to do it; override that cautiousness.

Someone brought up that Bylsma's record last season and making it to the ECF made it hard to fire him, I think that is a part of it. He should have been fired after Philly, but it did get harder to fire him (I know, I know). They missed the prime firing window, these playoffs will probably bring another one that they'll either grasp or be forced to grasp.

If this continues on then it's everyone involved in running that team.

EDIT: Kirk answered it. Shero was encouraged and supported to do those things, aka that needs to happen again because he's too cautious. Kick in the ass it is.

 

[IcedCapp]

I relayed this story in another thread, from Andrew Conte's book on the Pens:

1. When the organization first discussed the idea, Shero basically talked about the risks but admitted that Hossa could help. Burkle said they owed it to the fans. Morehouse said 'if we're think we can win now, then let's go for it'. Mario basically said 'anything can happen in the playoffs, and Hossa can help you go further'.

2. Trade day . . . about 45 minutes before the deadline, Waddell calls Shero to say he'd like to conclude the deal with him after all. They hammer out the terms. It's like 15 minutes before the deadline. Shero has a 'soft deal' for a vet lined up already, in case this didn't happen. Shero calls Mario like 10 minutes before the deadline. They talk. Shero again talks about the risks and, per the book, comes across as reticent to be wrong. He talks about the advantages. Mario asks him what he wants to do. Shero basically comes across as a guy who doesn't want to be wrong, at which point Mario basically says 'Ray, I'm a risk taker. If I weren't, then I wouldn't own this team.' Ray Shero concludes the deal with Waddell about 3 minutes before the deadline.

So, Mario didn't just push for the deal. He pushed Shero to make a decision, to take a risk. And, yes, Sid's BFF went.

As for firing Therrien, also from Conte's book, ownership met with him in NY in early January 2009 to talk about the team's slump. They asked him what plans he had, if any, to improve the team or change the coach. Shero basically said 'I'm always looking for a deal to improve the team but haven't thought about replacing the coach'. Ownership told him he had their full confidence and support to do whatever needed to be done, including replacing the coach, who in fact was replaced like 5 weeks later. I'm not sure that counts as 'pushing' him to fire Therrien, although there may be other stories subsequent to this meeting out there.

yea, so I don't view either of those stories as pushing the country club. I think the team has been negatively affected by the circus in Long Island. I also think they think they are better than they are.

Remember, those Gretzky Oilers and Mario Pens were STACKED and nowadays, having the two best players in the world doesn't mean nearly as much.

 

[The Tang]

It's hard to say because we don't accurately know how much a hand Mario has in all the decisions.

That said, you cannot deny the link that there was a country club atmosphere when he played and it has now returned, but that does not necessarily mean he is the cause. Maybe a cup win just inspires complacency?

As for confidence in the post season? Absolutely none. Since the cup win Byslma has shown nothing in the postseason to suggest he is remotely capable of taking this team the distance for many reasons already stated.

 

[billybudd]

Mario delegates. He doesn't dictate. If you absolutely believe problems start above Shero's head, Morehouse would be the guy to look at. Though I'm not sure there's a ton of evidence to support that. Some maybe, but not a ton.

 

[KIRK]

I honestly think Mario is only a problem if you consider a hands off owner to be an issue. I do not at all believe in the "Mario wanted country club as a player and demands it also as an owner" dictum.

He has a GM who is entrusted with running the team. Eventually Mario and the board make decisions if they don't like the direction, but Shero seems to have a very wide mandate, and Mario seems very much like the kind of owner who stays clear of operational issues.

Shero does have a fairly wide mandate.

And, if you think about it, it's easier to understand. He's a nice guy, very thoughtful, and highly competent, accomplished, and trained for the position.

Beyond that, think of what he walked into. The X-Generation years followed by an absolute mess of Sid's rookie season. An organization stuck in the dark ages in terms of how it operated.

From 2006-2009, Shero changed all that. And the Cup in 2009 earned him-- and I do mean EARNED him-- a lot of good will and latitude.

The last four years call into question how deserved that was, but I don't think that makes Mario the problem. Owners should take a hands-off approach to the daily management of their teams.

The only thing that gives me pause is all this talk of the family and entertaining fans. You see a country club environment coming back with no accountability. You see how this team has devolved in terms of construction.

And, all of this makes you wonder if Mario is as unwilling to hold Shero accountable as Shero is unwilling to hold Bylsma accountable.

That's not a conclusion. But, by the same token, I don't think it's completely unfair either.

 

[mpp9]

I think the accountability will come if this team doesn't make the Finals this year.

 

[KIRK]

yea, so I don't view either of those stories as pushing the country club. I think the team has been negatively affected by the circus in Long Island. I also think they think they are better than they are.

Remember, those Gretzky Oilers and Mario Pens were STACKED and nowadays, having the two best players in the world doesn't mean nearly as much.

You know, a little off topic, but I noted this in another thread . . . right up until that circus, the Pens were the bully. We had guys who would beat you up. We had agitators who would hound your team's stars to the point that your agitators would be more concerned about our agitators than they were about Sid and Geno.

Then the circus happened. And, we heard all the whining about the state of the game and the refs and all of that bull****. We were the bully that finally got punched in the mouth and didn't know what to do and never really recovered.

Even last night. All the whining about Subban. I'm sitting there thinking to myself 'man, I wish we had a mother****** like that, like we used to'. Ruutu, old Matt Cooke would agitate. Malone, Roberts, and a bunch of others would kick your *** in real (i.e., non-staged) fights.

Now? Come to think of it, maybe it's not that off topic. Mario hired Shero to make this team tough to play against and then gave him the latitude to do it. It worked until he joined the chorus after that Long Island circus.

 

[KIRK]

I think the accountability will come if this team doesn't make the Finals this year.

Just like Shero's held Bylsma accountable or Bylsma holds Gladams accountable?

 

[cassius]

I think there's no denying that Mario has facilitated the country club atmosphere, which is a huge part of this problem now.

From a business POV though, I can see why he "stayed the course" and basically kept the same (underperforming) coaching staff and personnel intact though. He's got a brand new arena that he's selling out consistently while getting crazy prices for tickets. I mean, to go to a game it costs $100/seat easily. Talk about steady cash flow. When you have steady cash flow coming in like that, you're not going to be in a hurry to make any changes whatsoever. I know I wouldn't.

The whole goal of owning a business is to generate consistent, positive cash flow and Mario has achieved that. Why mess with a good thing?

Just think... about 10 years ago he was taking steady losses and contemplating moving the team to KC. Now his business is absolutely crushing it.. I can see why he is very hesitant against tinkering with it.

 

[The Tang]

You know, a little off topic, but I noted this in another thread . . . right up until that circus, the Pens were the bully. We had guys who would beat you up. We had agitators who would hound your team's stars to the point that your agitators would be more concerned about our agitators than they were about Sid and Geno.

Then the circus happened. And, we heard all the whining about the state of the game and the refs and all of that bull****. We were the bully that finally got punched in the mouth and didn't know what to do and never really recovered.

Even last night. All the whining about Subban. I'm sitting there thinking to myself 'man, I wish we had a mother****** like that, like we used to'. Ruutu, old Matt Cooke would agitate. Malone, Roberts, and a bunch of others would kick your *** in real (i.e., non-staged) fights.

Now? Come to think of it, maybe it's not that off topic. Mario hired Shero to make this team tough to play against and then gave him the latitude to do it. It worked until he joined the chorus after that Long Island circus.

Did you just copy and paste this from another thread

I agree with the general assessment of the bully theory, but I don't know if that's when things turned. The team has been in a slow decline since then and no amount of talent can fix things the way they are currently run.

 

[Jacob]

Yes. We should fire Mario.

 

[KIRK]

Did you just copy and paste this from another thread

I agree with the general assessment of the bully theory, but I don't know if that's when things turned. The team has been in a slow decline since then and no amount of talent can fix things the way they are currently run.

It's never a light switch kind of thing. It's a gradual decline, like you said. But, IcedCapp cited the circus on LI as a turning point. I'll put it this way . . . you don't know precisely when the decline in terms of this team's 'toughness' started, but that circus can be cited as the point when it should've been obvious.

Oh, and . . .

 

[KIRK]

I think there's no denying that Mario has facilitated the country club atmosphere, which is a huge part of this problem now.

From a business POV though, I can see why he "stayed the course" and basically kept the same (underperforming) coaching staff and personnel intact though. He's got a brand new arena that he's selling out consistently while getting crazy prices for tickets. I mean, to go to a game it costs $100/seat easily. Talk about steady cash flow. When you have steady cash flow coming in like that, you're not going to be in a hurry to make any changes whatsoever. I know I wouldn't.

The whole goal of owning a business is to generate consistent, positive cash flow and Mario has achieved that. Why mess with a good thing?

Just think... about 10 years ago he was taking steady losses and contemplating moving the team to KC. Now his business is absolutely crushing it.. I can see why he is very hesitant against tinkering with it.

Mario Nutting?

 

[Til the End of Time]

i dont necessarily think mario is part of the problem, just that its plausible. its basically just circumstantial evidence at this point-- mario as a player loved the country club atmosphere to a fault, and this current club seems too country-clubby. correlation doesn't equal casuality.

but hes so far removed from the on-ice team, its pretty hard to say what effect he has on the team itself. i know for a fact that byslma is a problem, i'm now starting to think that shero is a problem, but ownership... thats several degree of separation right there.

one thing that is kind of damning-- all the media reports this past offseason said that shero had that big meeting with ownership right before the press conference announcing extensions for the coaching staff. this meeting was basically supposed to determine the fate of bylsma and co. reports said shero went into the meeting prepared to fight tooth and nail to defend bylsma. but shero was surprised that ownership was already completely on board with extensions. that kind of sucks.

did mario even earn that much money in his playing career? he seems like a dude with expensive tastes, i'm not familiar with any other investments or sources of income that he has. hes not like burkle who can afford to throw away millions of dollars. the cup is great, but i have to imagine still looks at this operation as a money-making opportunity for him. i can see why he would want to play it safe and stick with the popular and relatively "successful" byslma. keep his iconic stars happy, keep winning a fair amount of games, have some respectable playoff runs, and keep putting people in the seats.

again, correlation does not equal causation. frankly it seems more like mario has pushed shero to be aggressive (which is concerning about shero but thats another thread), which is a good thing. but ownership's complete support of bylsma this offseason is concerning.

at this stage this is just interesting speculation. but if this team continues to stick with bylsma/shero and their "we only want players that want to be here" shtick, then maybe ownership is culpable.

 

[KIRK]

i dont necessarily think mario is part of the problem, just that its plausible. its basically just circumstantial evidence at this point-- mario as a player loved the country club atmosphere to a fault, and this current club seems too country-clubby. correlation doesn't equal casuality.

but hes so far removed from the on-ice team, its pretty hard to say what effect he has on the team itself. i know for a fact that byslma is a problem, i'm now starting to think that shero is a problem, but ownership... thats several degree of separation right there.

one thing that is kind of damning-- all the media reports this past offseason said that shero had that big meeting with ownership right before the press conference announcing extensions for the coaching staff. this meeting was basically supposed to determine the fate of bylsma and co. reports said shero went into the meeting prepared to fight tooth and nail to defend bylsma. but shero was surprised that ownership was already completely on board with extensions. that kind of sucks.

did mario even earn that much money in his playing career? he seems like a dude with expensive tastes, i'm not familiar with any other investments or sources of income that he has. hes not like burkle who can afford to throw away millions of dollars. the cup is great, but i have to imagine still looks at this operation as a money-making opportunity for him. i can see why he would want to play it safe and stick with the popular and relatively "successful" byslma. keep his iconic stars happy, keep winning a fair amount of games, have some respectable playoff runs, and keep putting people in the seats.

Good point. As you said, it makes asking the question about Mario fair (although like you I don't necessarily see him as part of the problem).

 

[orby]

The onus really shouldn't be on Mario to create a winning team. The owner's job is to keep the team financially viable. Anything else is a bonus IMO. The buck stops with Shero.

 

[Tender Rip]

I posted this with your thoughts firmly in mind.

What you describes is one factor of what makes a great owner. The only job an owner should have, even one with as great a hockey mind as Mario, is hiring and firing GMs.

It is that one job that I am addressing. Or at least putting pressure on the GM.

I have a little experience with this as I am a Managing Director in a company that is a 50/50 joint venture - with a private owner and an industry organization. With the private owner offering much more day to day input than the hands-off Chairman of the Board who is also among the top directors in the industry organization.

I would say that the underlined part is key; even if I would put it differently. A good owner/Chairman of the board, asks you to consider alternatives and asks tough questions in order to make sure that your strategy is sound. As a GM/MD you are supposed to be much more in tune with the operational reality of the company you manage, so you stick to your strategy where you know you're right, but you certainly use ownerships input as a sounding board and inspiration when advise or suggestions are offered. A weak GM/MD will do what he/she thinks the board wants... a good GM/MD always looks to learn or take in new perspectives that might gain you an edge.

Of course my industry is entirely unrelated to the very public demands and pressures of pro sports (as well as the size of operation and I assume GM salary ), but the key management theme that is shared across virtually all industries is the necessity to put together a team where you get the right mix of complimentary abilities.
The Pens seems a top notch operation at the board and company infrastructure level, but below Shero it is not their table. That is Shero's responsibility. Of course.... if Shero is a problem, then that is the boards responsibility. I don't really think he is, but considering also KIRKs references to past defining moments in Shero's career, it is certainly time that management asks him to elaborate on why the management team and roster he has has put together deserves their trust.

 

[JTG]

People who think Mario Lemieux's commitment is money and not winning clearly hasn't followed Mario Lemieux the last 30 years.

 

[KIRK]

The onus really shouldn't be on Mario to create a winning team. The owner's job is to keep the team financially viable. Anything else is a bonus IMO. The buck stops with Shero.

Who signs Shero's paycheck?