Is king Karl defying makars premature generational label?
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Chips
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2015
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Josi almost hit 100 points and wasn’t as high on the seasons end points finish last season as Karlsson that year
You’re oversimplifying it. It’s a different scoring environment and a different league in a number of ways. The game has opened up for forwards far as slashes and crosschecks getting called and opening up the net front; fewer teams just focused on clogging up the middle of their zone allowing more open space for shifty players; forwards will more greatly benefit from that than even offensive defensemen who will still stay back more.
goaltending having a downturn while there’s likely a better forward group overall these days compared to that 14-15-16-17 stretch (these shifts happen, often coincidentally)
Also there inherently more risk in defenseman jumping up a lot or making otherwise aggressive attempts no matter how talented and effective. Teams with such a talented defenseman but also great forwards will usually opt to have the defenseman play less aggressive still. I’ve said this in the Josi v Makar threads, but I think that’s a big reason Makar was able to have such a strong offensive AND defensive season, he did try the super aggressive stuff when it was there but there was less pressure on him to force it, he could defer a safe pass to a teammate and move back. I have no doubt if he truly went balls out offense like Josi he could have scored more too
Also Karlssons prime was when there were still defensmen playing literally half the game, and almost all of them were more defensive minded or maybe two way. Karlsson was pretty much the main/only consistent offensive minded Dman playing that much which can affect his totals compared to 18-20 minutes forwards
Karlsson definitely had good defensive years, but 15-16 was not his best by any means. We’re comparing an almost 30 minute offensive defensman with poor defensive impacts (that was post injury right? The big one?) on a team that probably justifiably preferred he plays aggressive (like stepping up to try and force a turnover. Great when it works… less when it doesn’t), to a 25.5 min Dman playing a more balanced game and excelling at offense-is-defense as well (super efficiently moving the puck up and keeping it up throughout the game, less risks). Also Karlsson was older and more NHL experienced at that point, so we’ll see what can happen with Makar
There’s probably something I’m forgetting but I’ve more than covered the gist. It’s harder to compare then to now, and the players are fairly different.
I feel safe calling Lidstrom generational given his impact by the end, and offense wasn’t his main weapon at all. Just making a point about style.
Edit: also what’s a generation in a sports context? I mean it shouldn’t be quite like millennial vs Gen z should it? Considering how a sports “lifetime” is like 5-20 years and the game can change so fast
Should it be mostly or all based on age? Era of the game?
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Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
Of course it places you relatively high in scoring. Teams don't have multiple dmen eating big minutes while playing #1 PP. Many teams even run 4 forwards on the PP these days. It's impossible for lots of dmen around the league to put up big point totals, there's only so many minutes to go around in offensive situations.
Anyway, the game has been changing. Most teams last year had a 50 point defenseman, or someone in pace for that if they missed time due to injuries. There was like half a dozen that didn't, and every one of those teams were bad teams besides Edmonton that had a bit of a unique situation with their puck moving dmen getting shared ice time and thus also sharing production.
Damon Severson had 46 in 80 last year and he's currently on the Devils 3rd pair. You can have a bit of a random dman these days putting up numbers like that if given the chance. Looks like Montour could be a guy for the Panthers this year for example. Good player but we're not making a thread for him about showing Makar who is boss, even if it's a bit of tongue in cheek.
I mean just looking at this early season, you have 20 dmen with over 10 points already. So it's probably going to be the same story as last year. Not only that but there are more guys in the PPG range than in mid 2010's or whatever.
But yeah, not sure what the argument is here. EK hasn't been very good in past years and it is what it is. 19-20 DeBoer was visibly getting frustrated with his turnovers before getting fired, covid year was really bad and last year while better put him in the John Klingberg tier of production. You expect more from him, it's that simple. So it's nice to see him performing but again, it's just a start of a hopefully great year. He's got a lot to prove.
Lolonegoal
Registered User
- Jan 25, 2012
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More faulty logic. You have to be one of the best defenseman or in any position to be granted those top-pairing minutes you attribute to getting points.
That's like saying a goalie doesn't deserve credit for being high in the league in Wins, because only one goalie can play per night. There's only 32 starting positions in the league, and to get one you need to prove yourself one of the best 32 goalies in the league and then maintain that reputation. It's the same for defenseman.
Kairi Zaide
Unforgiven
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Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
So because Severson was in this position you mention last year, he's now one of the best defensemen?
Let's be realistic here. Is there a world where EK wasn't getting the minutes on a non-playoff team paying him 11.5M per year? No. They were going to play him no matter what.
Besides, you just compared being 20th in scoring for defensemen to 20th in scoring for a forward, don't talk to me about faulty logic lmao.
