Is Karlsson Bobby Orr 2.0?

[Beef Invictus]

Orr wouldn't be able to do what Orr did in the 1970s vs now full stop.

Why? Talent is timeless.

 

[Lays]

He's about as close as you can get today, but bobby was still in a different league

This.

 

[chizzler]

Orr wouldn't be able to do what Orr did in the 1970s vs now full stop.

Karlsson does what he does because of Orr. Orr changed the way defenseman play. Has Karlsson changed the game?

 

[chaosrevolver]

I think some people really do not understand how good Bobby Orr was. Just even looking at awards:

9 seasons (discounting the 36 games he played over 3 years after the njuries got to him).

8 Norris Trophies (3rd place the other year)
3 Hart Trophies (7 top-3 finishes)
2 Cup Wins (MVP both times)
2 Art Ross Trophies
8 1st Team All Stars
1 2nd Team All Stars

For 9 years no one in the league was as dominant at his position as he was. Real shame injuries retired him so young. He barely even had a prime.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

People who think Karlsson is Orr 2.0 aren't terribly well-informed regarding Orr 1.0.

There's being the best offensive defenseman in the league, then there's being the best offensive player in the league as a defenseman. Twice.

 

[Jeti]

Karlsson is dominant both defensively and offensively and is the best 200 ft player in the game. There hasn't been someone like him. Lidstrom never had the offense of Karlsson, stat wise or not. He just wasn't the same type of player. Defense was better but not close in offense talent.

In terms of what Karlsson brings to the table his game has to be very similar to Orr's. He leads rushes from his own end, is a game changer offensively but still is among the best defensively when he is in the zone.

It's laughable that you think Karlsson is "dominant" and "among the best" defensively. He's not even average defensively for a top-pairing defenseman. There's easily at least 30 defenders better than him in their own zone.

Lidstrom is closer to Karlsson offensively than Karlsson is to Lidstrom defensively, not the other way around. Karlsson is one of the all-time greats offensively, but there's no argument to be made that he's one the top-5 players in the history of the game overall like Orr. He isn't and it's not close.

 

[blundluntman]

People who think Karlsson is Orr 2.0 aren't terribly well-informed regarding Orr 1.0.

There's being the best offensive defenseman in the league, then there's being the best offensive player in the league as a defenseman. Twice.

Pretty much this. Probably the best offensive defenseman to enter the league in 2 or 3 decades but he isn't dominating the league like Orr did (even if you adjust for era.) Maybe he's a Bobby Orr lite but that's no slight to Karlsson at all considering Orr is arguably the best player of all time.

 

[johnnybbadd]

In February Burns was better than Karlsson. Now Karlsson is the next Orr.
Never change HF. Never change.

 

[Plural]

He's looking like the guy who's closest to it for sure. Not at Orr level quite yet but he's looking like he could actually be gaining up. Orr was on another planet though.

 

[fcpremix88]

Karlsson is more like Paul Coffey 2.0

 

[Super Hans]

If Erik Karlsson is Bobby Orr, just imagine what Oscar Klefbom is.

 

[Mickey Marner]

GF/GA ratio and Corsi are night and day when he is on and off the ice.

He plays half the game. He's not overrated at all.

The Bruins had a 68GF% with Orr on the ice and a 52GF% with him off. That's a career +16 GFrel.

 

[Hackett]

I think Mario was in his mid 30s by then. Health issues had definitely taken some toll on him by then. I think we saw the real Mario up til around age 31.

Even when Mario was torching the league in the 90's, his teammates were saying that he was playing through a ton of pain.

I don't think its a stretch to say that we may not have even seen Mario at his best.

 

[Never]

I'd say so, but the hockey historians of these boards won't agree because "everything was better before"

Everything wasn't better before, but Karlsson doesn't deserve to be mentioned alongside Orr. Even Lidstrom is a stretch at best.

 

[ThirdManIn]

Karlsson does what he does because of Orr. Orr changed the way defenseman play. Has Karlsson changed the game?

This is the correct answer. Karlsson is an excellent defensemen in an era of mobile, offensively-skilled defensemen. While he is the best of the bunch, he is not leaps and bounds better than the next couple of guys nor is he revolutionizing the position. We've seen defenders like him. Maybe they weren't as consistently great, but they played like him.

Orr changed the position. Orr changed the game.

That said, Karlsson certainly has time to be that same kind of revolutionary player. We really won't know if Karlsson has the same kind of impact until years after he retires. So as of right now, no. He is not. If, in a decade or so, it's decided that he had a similar kind of impact on the game he won't be "Orr 2.0." He'll just be Karlsson, and people will be asking if the next guy is "Karlsson 2.0."

 

[MXD]

The answer is neither. Brian Leetch was a great hall of fame defensemen. A top 10 defensemen on multiple people's list. Leetch was always the best Rangers player on teams with guys like Messier, Gretzky, Zubov, and Ricther. How many games did you watch Leetch play?

I know I didn't watch him "too much", which might explain the rationality.

It's about time people started realizing how good Karlsson is on the defensive side of the puck.

Anyway, Karlsson is more Bourque than Orr.

I really don't get this. Of all elite D-Men, Bourque might just the one who is the most different to Karlsson.

The gap between Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque is big.

Karlsson and Leetch are not even close to Ray Bourque level.

See... That's reasonable.

I always remember Harry Howell saying something like, he might as well enjoy this Norris Trophy because he expects Orr to win them from now on. He said that when Orr was a 18 year old rookie but Harry saw what was coming from that rookie and Harry was right.

And that's the thing : there was never any controversy about Bobby Orr and the Norris, because obviously no one in their right mind would even think of giving it to somebody else.

People who think Karlsson is Orr 2.0 aren't terribly well-informed regarding Orr 1.0.

There's being the best offensive defenseman in the league, then there's being the best offensive player in the league as a defenseman. Twice.

Karlsson is more like Paul Coffey 2.0

I definitely prefer the Leetch comparable on a macro-level.

 

[Zrhutch]

I'll get some flak for this, but I firmly believe that Karlsson will go down in the top 10 range all time for defensemen. Maybe even top 5. Definitely top three in the current NHL landscape (some order of himself, Crosby, and McD). He's that dynamic and I don't think Ottawa even sniffs the playoffs without him. Just a complete gamechanger.

As far as comparing him to Orr goes, let me put it this way- I don't think we'll see another guy this close to Orr in playstyle for awhile. He's the closest we've come.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Karlsson is more like Paul Coffey 2.0

I think Coffey was faster and had a better shot but I can see your thinking in terms of styles. Im a fan that thinks Coffey is underrated by some fans. Paul had some really great skills.

 

[ted2019]

Orr did what he did in a much smaller league with less talent. Not to diminish what he did, but you wouldn't see his level of dominance in today's league. Orr himself said he's a big fan of Karlsson.

Karlsson is dominant both defensively and offensively and is the best 200 ft player in the game. There hasn't been someone like him. Lidstrom never had the offense of Karlsson, stat wise or not. He just wasn't the same type of player. Defense was better but not close in offense talent.

In terms of what Karlsson brings to the table his game has to be very similar to Orr's. He leads rushes from his own end, is a game changer offensively but still is among the best defensively when he is in the zone. He has had some blips in defense but lately, and in many points in his career, he is elite in both defense and offense ability.

He's the reason the Sens are 6 games from a Stanley Cup. Orr might have won cups and Ross's, not to diminsh that, but this is a 30 team league now and he's up against generational forwards like Crosby and McDavid for the Ross, and he's coached by a Trap oriented coach. Still he is PPG in playoffs and has factored in 100% of GWG's by Sens in the playoffs.

Simply put, is Karlsson essentially a modern day Bobby Orr?

There will never be another Bobby Orr. Karlsson's good, but he has never even won a cup, let alone dominate the game like Orr did. Orr also dominated against some of the best players in hockey history, something Karlsson has never done. Let me know when Karlsson wins 1, let alone 3 Hart trophies and then we can talk.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Even when Mario was torching the league in the 90's, his teammates were saying that he was playing through a ton of pain.

I don't think its a stretch to say that we may not have even seen Mario at his best.

I saw one of Marios first games in person. You could see the size and skills but he wasn't fully great Mario yet as a rookie. Still he scored on a beautiful breakaway. Mario is the only guy I ever saw make Ray Bourque look really silly.

 

[ted2019]

I'd say so, but the hockey historians of these boards won't agree because "everything was better before"

It's because we are correct. He's a great player, but he's no Orr.

 

[illpucks]

There will never be another Bobby Orr. Karlsson's good, but he has never even won a cup, let alone dominate the game like Orr did. Orr also dominated against some of the best players in hockey history, something Karlsson has never done. Let me know when Karlsson wins 1, let alone 3 Hart trophies and then we can talk.

Did Orr ever have to fight a Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid level player for the Ross?

 

[King Mapes]

EK has TWO Norris trophies. while that's good, it's nowhere near Orr

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Did Orr ever have to fight a Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid level player for the Ross?

Esposito, Dionne, Lafleur, Mikita.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Does anyone think guys like Drew Doughty, Keith, & Subban would have beat a prime Bobby Orr for Norris Trophies?