Is Karlsson Bobby Orr 2.0?

[tarheelhockey]

Karlsson cannot get Ross's in today's NHL or break 100 points.

It's funny, because Lidstrom fans told us that a defenseman couldn't be PPG in this league... until Karlsson came along.

Now Karlsson fans tell us a defenseman can't win a Ross in this league.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I watched Leetch play plenty of games including his peak season in '94. He was absolutely not on Karlsson's level, not for any more than a few months at a time anyway.

I will respectfully disagree. In fact in that 1994 playoff season Leetch had as many playoff points as Karlsson has had for his whole career. I watched Leetch in most of the games of his career. His footwork was as good as almost anyone's in the game. He had hands. He could hit with his hip check. He had vision. He could stop and pivot on a dime like some all time great forwards.

I think Karlsson is great compared to others from today. I'm not bashing Karlsson but every year these threads pop up. Last season people were speaking about how great all time Duncan Keith was during playoff time. Next year it may be is PK Subban a top 10 all time.

 

[maaran]

I'd say Orr>Karlsson>>Leetch

The gap between Orr and Karlsson isn't that big.

 

[Birko19]

Is this thread real life?

 

[bob27]

I'd say Orr>Karlsson>>Leetch

The gap between Orr and Karlsson isn't that big.

Right, it isn't big. It's enormous. Man, kids these days...

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'd say Orr>Karlsson>>Leetch

The gap between Orr and Karlsson isn't that big.

The gap between Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque is big.

Karlsson and Leetch are not even close to Ray Bourque level.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I'm still trying to comprehend the implication that he's better than Lidstrom.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I'm huge a Leetch fan and believe he and Karlsson are comparable. Neither are in Orr's league though.

 

[Semantics]

This conversation can *start* when Karlsson leads his team to a cup or two.

Thus far he is not in the same class as Lidstrom let alone Orr.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I always remember Harry Howell saying something like, he might as well enjoy this Norris Trophy because he expects Orr to win them from now on. He said that when Orr was a 18 year old rookie but Harry saw what was coming from that rookie and Harry was right.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Whenever somebody says that he's as good as Orr, the best defenseman since Orr, or even remotely close to Orr...yes he is being overrated.

This is the kind of thinking that is just fuelled by nostalgia

 

[BruinLVGA]

Look up Bobby Orr and then THINK. Karlsson = Bobby Orr 2.0? Come on.

 

[The Podium]

I think you'd be surprised. Anyone watching from a historical perspective should easily recognize that Karlsson's doing something historically unique, that he's easily a top-10 defenseman of all time if he continues this pace.

The issue in comparing him to Orr is whether you consider Karlsson to be the best player in the league today. Orr was clearly, without question the best player in the league for an extended period. Karlsson would need to at least hint at that level in order to really make a case.

The thing is, if he continues to mature as a player, he has a really good chance of hitting that level in the near future.

Ya, I don't think Karlsson is as good as Orr was relative to his peers and as such won't be regarded as even near him as the best defensemen ever. However, he is easily a modern Orr and as close as a player can get in this era.

 

[Sojourn]

This is the kind of thinking that is just fuelled by nostalgia

It's a little frustrating to see this argument.

I get it, Karlsson is a great player. That doesn't mean Orr wasn't clearly better. I don't think Karlsson has even reached Bourque or Lidstrom levels, and Orr was pretty obviously on a higher level than they were. The gap between Karlsson and Orr is still big enough to put the Mississippi river.

 

[NickyFotiu]

This is the kind of thinking that is just fuelled by nostalgia

How many other defensemen have led the NHL in points for a season?

In fact Orr was 1st or 2nd in points per game for 5 out of 6 seasons. He dropped to 3rd for one season. I wonder if he took a pay cut.

 

[The Podium]

There is too much parity in the league today for a player to be as dominant as Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. Even the generational players of this era have seasons where they fall from grace. Ovi, for example, is considered among the best goal scorers ever but has 3 50 goal seasons sandwiched between 2 30 goal seasons. Crosby has been the consensus best player in the league for nearly a decade and only has 2 Art Ross to his name.

So ya, Karlsson will never have the same historical impact as Orr, nor was he as dominant. But for this modern era, he is as close as it gets.

 

[NickyFotiu]

There is too much parity in the league today for a player to be as dominant as Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. Even the generational players of this era have seasons where they fall from grace. Ovi, for example, is considered among the best goal scorers ever but has 3 50 goal seasons sandwiched between 2 30 goal seasons. Crosby has been the consensus best player in the league for nearly a decade and only has 2 Art Ross to his name.

So ya, Karlsson will never have the same historical impact as Orr, nor was he as dominant. But for this modern era, he is as close as it gets.

Most eras had some level of parity like you spoke about in your post. That is why Orr, Wayne, and Mario stood so tall. They were at a level above everyone else. Guys like Bossy, Potvin, and Crosby were all elite players. Orr, Wayne, and Mario were a level above elite that we have not seen since them or before them.

 

[Sojourn]

There is too much parity in the league today for a player to be as dominant as Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. Even the generational players of this era have seasons where they fall from grace. Ovi, for example, is considered among the best goal scorers ever but has 3 50 goal seasons sandwiched between 2 30 goal seasons. Crosby has been the consensus best player in the league for nearly a decade and only has 2 Art Ross to his name.

So ya, Karlsson will never have the same historical impact as Orr, nor was he as dominant. But for this modern era, he is as close as it gets.

I'm not convinced this is true.

I could be wrong, and I admit this, but we're talking about the three greatest players to ever play. It's entirely possible that the reason we haven't seen a player dominate like that because they were special, special players.

Now, I'm not saying that Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr could come in and put up the exact same type of numbers. The game has changed, in part because of their own contributions, but I genuinely feel that if they entered the league now, with all the benefits of current players, they would be the very best players in the league, and on a level beyond anyone else.

We can throw labels like Generational out there, and apply them to current players, but maybe, just maybe Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr are in a category beyond that.

 

[Machinehead]

What exactly does Karlsson do so much better than Leetch?

Leetch would get a lot more respect if he didn't play for a joke of a franchise.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

With lemieux it's not a what if. He was dominant as recent as 2003 playing from a stretcher

 

[Dead Thing Fan]

Karlsson

I'm a 64 yr. old man who was born and raised in Montreal. Being the contrarian that I am, I naturally became a Red Wings fan at the age of 5 because of Gordie Howe, who will always be my #1 idol. That being said in my, hopefully, humble opinion, Bobby Orr is the greatest, most complete player to ever play the game.

One could easily make the argument that we really never got to see Bobby Orr at his best as he suffered multiple knee injuries before and during his NHL career that required close to a dozen medical procedures. His career was effectively over at the age of 27.

I have no doubt that Orr would be as fast(if not faster) as McDavid in any head to head race. I know the tapes of his play really don't do justice to his ability, but I have seen Orr take the puck from behind his own net, lead the rush down the ice and be the first one back if the rush didn't result in a goal. Nobody could touch his speed.

Karlsson's offensive chops as a dman are easily are top 10. However he is nowhere close to either Orr, Lidstrom, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque or a dozen others in defensive ability

 

[psycat]

The gap between Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque is big.

Karlsson and Leetch are not even close to Ray Bourque level.

He is though. That said he is not close to Orr.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Is this a joke or something? Are you seriously comparing Orr to Karlsson? There has never been nor will there ever be any player better than the Karlsson. He is on a whole different level.

 

[NickyFotiu]

With lemieux it's not a what if. He was dominant as recent as 2003 playing from a stretcher

I think Mario was in his mid 30s by then. Health issues had definitely taken some toll on him by then. I think we saw the real Mario up til around age 31.

 

[Barrie22]

I think Mario was in his mid 30s by then. Health issues had definitely taken some toll on him by then. I think we saw the real Mario up til around age 31.

So the 96-97 season. In 2003 he was 38 years old. Well beyond lemiuex of old.