Is Karlsson Bobby Orr 2.0?

[Sens of Anarchy]

To me so far Orr was the best.

Its hard to compare a relatively young active player ... to one that played their entire career , won multiple cups, awards etc.

Karlsson is great no question, fun to watch and incredibly valuable to the Senators and any success they have.

 

[Barrie22]

To me so far Orr was the best.

Its hard to compare a relatively young active player ... to one that played their entire career , won multiple cups, awards etc.

Karlsson is great no question, fun to watch and incredibly valuable to the Senators and any success they have.

If you count his last 3 years where he played a total of 36 games. Orr played in the nhl for 12 seasons. 9 if you don't count those seasons. He won 8 norris. 2 art ross, 2 conn smythes. Calder. 3 harts.

Karlsson next season is going on season 8.

This is not a player that played till his late 30's. Orr was finished before his 30th bday.

 

[BNHL]

If I could choose 1 player in history for one game,I'd pick Orr without batting an eye.

 

[beowulf]

Not even close. He is a great dman, can produce a ton of offence and while not great he continues to improve on defense. That being said he is no Orr.

 

[jgatie]

To me so far Orr was the best.

Its hard to compare a relatively young active player ... to one that played their entire career , won multiple cups, awards etc.

Karlsson is great no question, fun to watch and incredibly valuable to the Senators and any success they have.

As stated, Orr's career was effectively over when he was just past Karlsson's age. Karlsson would have to end his career like Orr started his to be thought of as Orr 2.0. That's a tall order, considering the first 9 years of Orr's career are the greatest for any defenseman who ever lived, both in points and awards.

Think about that. Orr had the greatest 9 years of any defenseman who ever lived, and it was before what most consider to be a defenseman's prime years.

 

[armani]

The WHA started play *after* Orr had already won an Art Ross and had a 139 point season. And it was the only league competing for NHL-level talent, no need to say plural "leagues".

You're right that there were some very good players in Russia who could have played in the NHL and done well (bear in mind this is still true in 2017). The iron curtain had *some* impact on the league but it was not something that would have impacted the way Orr performed.

In the 1976 Canada Cup, a fully international best-on-best, a semi-retired Orr tied for the scoring lead among *all* players including the Russians, with 9 points in the 7 games, and won the MVP award. He would have been just fine playing in a fully integrated league.



Orr never scored 152 points, his career high was 139.

And yes it would be harder to score that much now. Have you ever tried to put a rough estimate on *how much* harder it is? 10% harder? 20% harder.

You'd have to cut it by 40% to get him down to being even with Karlsson. Surely you acknowledge that arbitrarily cutting someone's scoring by 40% would be absurd. The reality is closer to the 10-20% range, which still leaves Orr comfortably over 100 points in today's game.



Thing is, I do agree with this. I think Karlsson's a seriously special talent and people should stop crapping on him long enough to understand that he might just be the biggest talent since Bourque. That doesn't make him anything like Orr, who was without question a higher level talent than Bourque.

The day where a defenceman leads the league in scoring while being elite defensively seems unlikely, based on the evolution of the game in the last 20-30-40-50 years. Even a 100 point d-man seems unlikely unless something changes in the game (a major one like bigger posts or more equipment changes) drastically.

And I'll just keep saying again and again, this line of thinking told us that a player like Karlsson would never be seen again. Did they make the nets bigger and I just missed it? Or were we simply waiting on a talented enough player to come along and re-set the bar?



And there's a reason nobody did it *before* Orr either. You keep saying "inferior players" as if defensemen used to regularly win the Ross because the game was so easy.

This is a long post so a lot of people are going to TL;DR it. If you're about to do that, at least take a second to glance at the numbers below.

In 1970, Orr led the league with 120 points. The next highest scorer who wasn't his own teammate was Stan Mikita, a superstar who scored 86. The next highest scoring defenseman was Carol Vadnais, who rode a bad team's PP to 44 points.

In 1971, Orr scored 139 points. The next best non-teammate was Bobby Hull, a generational player who scored 96. Second place defenseman was JC Tremblay, who had an obscene number of PP assists for the Habs and ended up with 63.

In 1975, his final real season, a heavily injured Orr scored 135 points. His nearest non-teammate was Marcel Dionne, another offensive superstar, who scored 121. A cluster of defensemen came close to #2, but were led by a young Denis Potvin with 76.

Did scoring rise during that period? Definitely. Did defensemen start playing more of a role? Definitely. But nobody was even close to Orr. He doubled the next highest scoring dman even after the game opened up and defensemen started scoring more in general. DOUBLED them! And he made first ballot HOF'ers like Mikita, Hull, and Dionne look like second-tier players by comparison.

There's a reason people talk about Orr the way they do. It's not like Paul Coffey scoring a lot in an inflated environment. Orr absolutely crushed the competition in a way that only Gretzky can really even compare to. We've seen nothing like that in at least 30 years, we're talking about a Mozart-like level of unique talent.

Post of the thread. Very good read.

Nobody will disagree on the dominance of Orr, he is the gold standard, hence the comparison. Karlsson is the closest thing now, and I am very pessimistic, based on the last 50 years of how the game kept on becoming structure based and low scoring that we will see defenceman winning Art Ross with such wide gaps in our lifetime.

 

[trentmccleary]

Hopefully this table comes out. Categories are: History of Hockey Top-60 D-men rank, Top-5/10/15/20 NHL scoring rank including forwards, Times #1 in D-scoring, Norris & top-5's, All Star Team honors and Era Adjusted points.

Orr is one of the very best players to ever play, there's just no point to try to compare somebody to a Gretzky or Orr until they win multiple Art Ross trophies by a large margin in short order. Jagr in the late 1990's might have been the last time you could actually picture somebody new cracking the top-5 in NHL history.

[table="css=transp;head;”]Player|HOH T-60|T-5|T-10|T-15|T-20|Total|Highest|#1 D-pts|Norris|N #2-5|1-AST|2-AST|T-5 EA Pts|T-5 EA Avg
B. Orr|1|6|0|0|0|6|1st|7|8|1|8|1|129, 124, 117, 117, 117|120.8
Coffey|13|3|3|2|0|8|2nd|8|3|9|4|4|108, 100, 100, 96, 94|99.6
Karlsson|NR|1|1|1|1|4|4th|4|2|1|3|0|92, 86, 82, 78, 73|82.2
Potvin|6|1|1|1|1|4|5th|3|3|4|5|2|86, 85, 85, 72, 67|79.0
Bourque|3|0|1|2|1|4|9th|2|5|14|13|6|84, 82, 80, 79, 76|80.2
Leetch|23|0|1|0|1|2|9th|4|2|4|2|3|91, 85, 81, 81, 78|83.2
MacInnis|18|0|1|0|0|1|9th|3|1|5|4|3|92, 76, 75, 74, 71|77.6
B. Park|11|0|1|0|2|3|9th|0|0|7|5|2|78, 73, 71, 61, 51|66.8
Lidstrom|5|0|0|0|1|1|19th|4.5|7|6|10|2|79, 77, 76, 75, 69|75.2[/table]


These d-men played at an elite level for a heck of a long time. Karlsson may go down as arguably the 3rd best offensive defensemen; that's high praise. But he still needs to continue to add to his legacy to compare to the greatness of their careers.

For now, Leetch is the best comparable until Karlsson puts some distance between he and Leetch. Karlsson has matched and exceeded quite a few of Leetch's peak achievements, but there are a few he's yet to match/exceed. Let's wait until he finishes surpassing Leetch or guys in the same range before we start mentioning anybody in the Top-5/Top-10.

 

[psycat]

There can be another orr, it just isn't and won't be karlsson.

Fully agreed! That said he is the closest thing to Orr since Orr himself. He could very well end up as a top 5 dman of all time and he gonna have 10x the career of Burns, whom might have been a better offensive dman this year and ill give him credit for that.

Karlsson could end up in Bourque/Lidström territory barring injury or serious decline.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Hopefully this table comes out. Categories are: History of Hockey Top-60 D-men rank, Top-5/10/15/20 NHL scoring rank including forwards, Times #1 in D-scoring, Norris & top-5's, All Star Team honors and Era Adjusted points.

Orr is one of the very best players to ever play, there's just no point to try to compare somebody to a Gretzky or Orr until they win multiple Art Ross trophies by a large margin in short order. Jagr in the late 1990's might have been the last time you could actually picture somebody new cracking the top-5 in NHL history.

[table="css=transp;head;â€]Player|HOH T-60|T-5|T-10|T-15|T-20|Total|Highest|#1 D-pts|Norris|N #2-5|1-AST|2-AST|T-5 EA Pts|T-5 EA Avg
B. Orr|1|6|0|0|0|6|1st|7|8|1|8|1|129, 124, 117, 117, 117|120.8
Coffey|13|3|3|2|0|8|2nd|8|3|9|4|4|108, 100, 100, 96, 94|99.6
Karlsson|NR|1|1|1|1|4|4th|4|2|1|3|0|92, 86, 82, 78, 73|82.2
Potvin|6|1|1|1|1|4|5th|3|3|4|5|2|86, 85, 85, 72, 67|79.0
Bourque|3|0|1|2|1|4|9th|2|5|14|13|6|84, 82, 80, 79, 76|80.2
Leetch|23|0|1|0|1|2|9th|4|2|4|2|3|91, 85, 81, 81, 78|83.2
MacInnis|18|0|1|0|0|1|9th|3|1|5|4|3|92, 76, 75, 74, 71|77.6
B. Park|11|0|1|0|2|3|9th|0|0|7|5|2|78, 73, 71, 61, 51|66.8
Lidstrom|5|0|0|0|1|1|19th|4.5|7|6|10|2|79, 77, 76, 75, 69|75.2[/table]


These d-men played at an elite level for a heck of a long time. Karlsson may go down as arguably the 3rd best offensive defensemen; that's high praise. But he still needs to continue to add to his legacy to compare to the greatness of their careers.

For now, Leetch is the best comparable until Karlsson puts some distance between he and Leetch. Karlsson has matched and exceeded quite a few of Leetch's peak achievements, but there are a few he's yet to match/exceed. Let's wait until he finishes surpassing Leetch or guys in the same range before we start mentioning anybody in the Top-5/Top-10.

Leetch's prime gets underrated often on HF. His prime was very good.

One of the many weird things about this thread is that I can not even say for sure that Karlsson is the best offensive defensemen playing today. Is Karlsson really better than Burns offensively?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

A guy that is elite both offensively and defensively and leading the league in scoring? In today's game, that doesn't seem plausible - unless you are talking about a player like Burns, who is the best goal scoring defenceman - but is not considered elite defensively.

This Karlsson guy is a revolutionary of his own, a prototype opening doors for smaller, mobile, fast defencemen with skills to be effective NHLer.

I think it's plausible, but I do think that all of today's top d-men have a wart or two that keeps them from the top-3 so far. Plenty of career for some of the younger ones like EK to sort it out, but there were no flaws in the games of Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom, for example.

The problem is that to some, nobody can ever be Bobby Orr. It's like people who say nothing modern could ever match the Godfather films. There will one day come a man who is the match or superior of Bobby Orr and you won't probably realise it at the time.

Maybe one will come along, but I disagree--I think we'd realize it almost immediately. That's the kind of impact Orr had. There was no question. There ARE questions now.

 

[Hockeypete49]

Great read tarheelhockey, it looks like you may be bringing some of them around.
Well done.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If you count his last 3 years where he played a total of 36 games. Orr played in the nhl for 12 seasons. 9 if you don't count those seasons. He won 8 norris. 2 art ross, 2 conn smythes. Calder. 3 harts.

Karlsson next season is going on season 8.

This is not a player that played till his late 30's. Orr was finished before his 30th bday.

Sure ok. Ignore that I said Orr was the best, and focus my next sentence on Orr exclusively.. I guess I deserved that.

 

[Boxscore]

Comparing Karlsson to Orr is like comparing McDavid to Gretzky - it's not really fair. That said, Karlsson is amazing and could go down as the best defenseman since Bourque (a hair ahead of Lidstrom) when it's all said and done in 10-12 more years.

Would it surprise me if Karlsson ends up an all-time, Top-5 defenseman the way Crosby will be at forward? Not at all.

 

[Barrie22]

Sure ok. Ignore that I said Orr was the best, and focus my next sentence on Orr exclusively.. I guess I deserved that.

Karlsson would have to win 12+ norrises over a 20 year career in my opinion to even start getting to the same level as orr.

Lidstrom had 7 and nobody with a brain would even think of putting him over orr. Him over bourque has a case (not in my opinion, but others yes). He is hurt by the fact he never won a norris until the season bourque was retiring.

 

[trentmccleary]

Leetch's prime gets underrated often on HF. His prime was very good.

One of the many weird things about this thread is that I can not even say for sure that Karlsson is the best offensive defensemen playing today. Is Karlsson really better than Burns offensively?

Leetch's prime was very good, similar to Karlsson's in many ways to this point in their careers, which is why it's a great comparison. The comparison breaks down though when you see that Karlsson still has a decade or more left to play and Leetch added very little to his legacy after the age of 28yo. EK turns 27yo in a couple of days.

Burns' point shot being the #1 option on the San Jose powerplay doesn't make him better than Karlsson offensively.

 

[unknown33]

The problem is that to some, nobody can ever be Bobby Orr. It's like people who say nothing modern could ever match the Godfather films. There will one day come a man who is the match or superior of Bobby Orr and you won't probably realise it at the time.

Or those players just aren't good enough.

Anyone following other sports besides hockey should notice that it's possible for current player to get their due if they're truly deserving.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The problem is that to some, nobody can ever be Bobby Orr. It's like people who say nothing modern could ever match the Godfather films. There will one day come a man who is the match or superior of Bobby Orr and you won't probably realise it at the time.

Two guys did come along that many folks felt were better than Bobby. They just weren't defensemen. Since those two players we have not had the same greatness. That is why those three were so special.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Leetch's prime was very good, similar to Karlsson's in many ways to this point in their careers, which is why it's a great comparison. The comparison breaks down though when you see that Karlsson still has a decade or more left to play and Leetch added very little to his legacy after the age of 28yo. EK turns 27yo in a couple of days.

Burns' point shot being the #1 option on the San Jose powerplay doesn't make him better than Karlsson offensively.

Burns speed, vision, shot, puck rushing ability are all factors in his offensive game. Do you feel like Karlsson had a more productive season offensively than Burns?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Whenever somebody says that he's as good as Orr, the best defenseman since Orr, or even remotely close to Orr...yes he is being overrated.

Disagree.

He's getting close to.

If people were saying Lidstrom then yes, they'd be way off. But Orr? Definitely.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Disagree.

He's getting close to.

If people were saying Lidstrom then yes, they'd be way off. But Orr? Definitely.

Which is a very strange argument considering Orr >>> Lidstrom.

 

[BostonBob]

If people were saying Lidstrom then yes, they'd be way off. But Orr? Definitely.

So you're saying that Lidstrom was better than Orr ???? If so then there is no way anything you say in this thread can be taken seriously.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Lidstrom is the best D to have ever played.

And it isn't particularly close.

 

[Sensinitis]

Lidstrom is the best D to have ever played.

And it isn't particularly close.

You say that having watched Orr and the other competitors?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Lidstrom is the best D to have ever played.

And it isn't particularly close.

Wrong

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lidstrom is the best D to have ever played.

And it isn't particularly close.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion.