Is Karlsson Bobby Orr 2.0?

[NickyFotiu]

Coffey! Paul Coffey. He is the Hall Of Fame defenseman not a beverage

 

[jgatie]

You are not alone in posting ignorant stuff about Karlsson. [mod]/QUOTE]

Come on dude. Karlsson may be defensively sound now after working on it, but he is hardly defensively elite, and he's hardly been sound for his entire career. Coffey is a legit comparison, much better than Orr, who was not just defensively sound, he was defensively elite. In '72, the man went an entire playoffs, first round to the Cup, without getting a single minus.

[mod]

 

[armani]

So Bobby Orr was far, far better than anyone else who played in his era? Far better than anyone today is better than their peers, even when adjusted for average goals per game?

Gee, I think that's exactly what we've been arguing.

And by the way, I still don't understand how terrible goaltending and no defensive structure against terrible competition results in a comparatively low goals per game compared to today's supposedly far superior competition. Yet the GPG are less than .15 goals apart. Also, after the exodus of talent to the WHL, GPG went up, not down. Please explain?

I highly doubt you actually watched Orr live like you claim, or understand how the game has evolved if your claims are valid. I am done with this thread, a veiled EK haters forum. Not saying you are one of the haters, but they are in abundance in this thread, so no point.

I have made my arguments and rest my case. I will just enjoy the next 10 years of Karlsson [mod].

 

[Laineux]

It's nonsensical to even compare the two.

Karlsson will never have close to the impact that Orr had on the game of hockey. Karlsson is a better ice hockey player in vacuum, obviously, as a product of completely different times.

 

[iDangleDangle]

Compare him to Coffee if anyone. 2- way defenseman? There is nothing defensive about Karlsson that scares any forward. I don't think I've ever seen him throw a hit.

Hitting = defense?

I guess Lidström didn't have anything in his defensive arsenal that scared opposing forwards then either...

...oh yeah: stick checking, lateral movement, speed, positioning...those count for something too right?

 

[Agent Zub]

Come on dude. Karlsson may be defensively sound now after working on it, but he is hardly defensively elite, and he's hardly been sound for his entire career. Coffey is a legit comparison, much better than Orr, who was not just defensively sound, he was defensively elite. In '72, the man went an entire playoffs, first round to the Cup, without getting a single minus.

Only on HF would someone get pissed about comparing their favorite player to a first ballot HOFer.

Ottawa: 47GF 50GA
Karlsson ON: 32GF 16 GA
Karlsson OFF: 15 GF 34 GA


On Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
412:20 |21 (3.06/60)| 10 (1.46/60) |67.7%|54.57| 47.73| 53.3

Off Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
598:26|13(1.30/60)|24 (2.41/60)|35.1%|50.53 |58.35 |46.4 %

He also went two straight best on best tournaments without being on the for a single regulation goal.

How is that not an elite defensive player?

 

[NickyFotiu]

I highly doubt you actually watched Orr live like you claim, or understand how the game has evolved if your claims are valid. I am done with this thread, a veiled EK haters forum. Not saying you are one of the haters, but they are in abundance in this thread, so no point.

I have made my arguments and rest my case. I will just enjoy the next 10 years of Karlsson while you guys go to Cheers in Beacon Street to reminisce the good ol' days.

Armani is it possible a hockey fan may not believe Karlsson is the best of all time yet not be a Karlsson hater? Is it really that cut and dry? I think Karlsson could end up in the top 10 of all time but it is way too soon for me to say that for sure. No hate. Just opinion.

 

[jgatie]

Ottawa: 47GF 50GA
Karlsson ON: 32GF 16 GA
Karlsson OFF: 15 GF 34 GA


On Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
412:20 |21 (3.06/60)| 10 (1.46/60) |67.7%|54.57| 47.73| 53.3

Off Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
598:26|13(1.30/60)|24 (2.41/60)|35.1%|50.53 |58.35 |46.4 %

He also went two straight best on best tournaments without being on the for a single regulation goal.

How is that not an elite defensive player?

So maybe he is getting there, my mistake. Do you agree he's not always had those numbers, which was my main point.

 

[jgatie]

Armani is it possible a hockey fan may not believe Karlsson is the best of all time yet not be a Karlsson hater? Is it really that cut and dry? I think Karlsson could end up in the top 10 of all time but it is way too soon for me to say that for sure. No hate. Just opinion.

I said Top 10 and a long shot for Top 5, but this is apparently a haters thread.

 

[Number8]

Because he was the absolute best, a revolutionary. In an era of no defensive structure (compared to today) and terrible goaltending, he was a man amongst boys. Like Pele in soccer.

If you teleported Bobby in today's game, I can see him leading the defensive scoring too. I highly doubt you will see him winning the Art Ross, primarily because of the quality of competition and vastly different structure where the field of competition is higher than it has ever been before in the cap era. Orr was a natural freak of nature.

Karlsson is a natural freak of nature, not the best physical specimen, actually very undersized when he was drafted at 157 lbs. With his natural skating abilities, his sense of the game, his breakouts and playmaking abilities​, he could have played in any era of hockey. If you teleport him to Orr's days of playing, I can't see him scoring any lower that he has. In fact, I can see him breaking the 100 point barriers in that era of open ice, less tight checking, and terrible goaltending by today's standards.

I said it's like comparing apples and oranges, there are respected media personalities comparing him to greats such as Orr, and I see no issues with that. Also, listen to what the greats such as Potvin, Robinson, et. al have to say about Karlsson.

There wouldn't be a second Bobby Orr, i.e. a defenceman who will lead the league in scoring (or score 120+ points) in today's game. Karlsson is the closest thing to being a great 2-way defenceman.

What "respected media personalities" say is irrelevant. I gave you exact quotes from HHOF undisputed greats (coaches, players, GM's) such a Howe, Gretzky, Bowman and about a dozen others all saying that Bobby Orr was unlike any defenseman they've ever seen. That carries weight. If not, you are just being ridiculous. Who should we listen to on the subject? Wayne Gretzky or you? Rhetorical question obviously.

Please provide a quote from Larry Robinson comparing Karlsson to Bobby Orr. I gave you benefit of doubt and googled it. I cannot find one. You mentioned it -- please provide it.

In meantime I'm happy to repost the dozen or so quotes from hockey greats all talking about Bobby Orr as one of a kind. It's no problem -- they are literally all over the place.

 

[armani]

Armani is it possible a hockey fan may not believe Karlsson is the best of all time yet not be a Karlsson hater? Is it really that cut and dry? I think Karlsson could end up in the top 10 of all time but it is way too soon for me to say that for sure. No hate. Just opinion.

It is, and when/where did I ever call EK the best of all time? I said he is the closest thing in modern era, individually (Norrises, named best d-man in the Olympics, etc.). And I am not alone in saying this, I am just a big fan of the game of hockey (not just NHL but grassroots to major Junior) of 30+ years who posts in a hockey forum.

What I wrote is in my thread history and I haven't made one false claim.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

He wasn't even the best defenseman this year.

The next Paul Coffey maybe.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Bobby Orr is Karlsson 0.5.

 

[Agent Zub]

He wasn't even the best defenseman this year.

The next Paul Coffey maybe.

please don't tell me you think Burns was better

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

please don't tell me you think Burns was better

Before I answer that tell me why that would be such a radical opinion.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Read the thread history of the gu..trust me, Sens fans have our share of EK haters and know them well. Check thread history before jumping in with words of wisdom.

You act like I called Karlsson a 4th forward or something. Wait, that was you with regard to Burns.

Burns scored a dozen more goals than Karlsson. That's a huge difference in offensive production. Burns was the first defensman to lead his team in goals and assists in 25 years. He also was good defensively despite what people who hardly stay up late enough to watch him say.

Before you bring up quality of comp, just remember Phaneuf's line played tougher minutes than Karlsson's.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Yeah, I said Erik Karlsson has a shot to be a top 5 defenseman of all time, but I'm a hater.

It's sad. I like Erik Karlsson. His sycophant fans are another story.

Didn't think I needed a sarcasm smilie for this one.

 

[jgatie]

Didn't think I needed a sarcasm smilie for this one.

Forgive me if I assumed you were like the other Karlsonn fans when it comes to painting with the "hater" brush.

 

[Semantics]

Ottawa: 47GF 50GA
Karlsson ON: 32GF 16 GA
Karlsson OFF: 15 GF 34 GA


On Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
412:20 |21 (3.06/60)| 10 (1.46/60) |67.7%|54.57| 47.73| 53.3

Off Ice

TOI|GF|GA|GF%|CF/60|CA/60|CF%
598:26|13(1.30/60)|24 (2.41/60)|35.1%|50.53 |58.35 |46.4 %

He also went two straight best on best tournaments without being on the for a single regulation goal.

How is that not an elite defensive player?

By your logic guys like Jason Zucker and Nate Schmidt are just as good as Karlsson, since they had similar GF% values (in the regular season, playoff stats are hader to find and prone to high variance due to sample size).

 

[GreatGonzo]

Read the thread history of the gu..trust me, Sens fans have our share of EK haters and know them well. Check thread history before jumping in with words of wisdom.

No one hates EK, it's the comparing him to BOBBY FREAKING ORR where your argument loses validating. You then resort to the "hater card" when no one agrees with you, because by your standards, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a hater.

Stick to your VHS tapes.

 

[Micklebot]

By your logic guys like Jason Zucker and Nate Schmidt are just as good as Karlsson, since they had similar GF% values (in the regular season, playoff stats are hader to find and prone to high variance due to sample size).

I was unaware that when Zucker or Schmidt came of the ice, the Minnesota and Washington's GF% droped to ~35%... oh wait, that's because it didn't.

I mean, if you're going to criticize his logic, at least understand it first. It certainly wasn't without room for critique.

 

[Barrie22]

This thread is comedy gold.

Every one is to young to see orr play in his prime so nobody can talk about what his game was like.

Nobody watches karlsson play even though he is an active player.

Orr though can have his game critiqued for the worse by fans that admittedly wasn't even born for decades after orr left the game.

Every one that says karlsson isn't the best ever is a hater.

 

[tarheelhockey]

There wouldn't be a second Bobby Orr, i.e. a defenceman who will lead the league in scoring (or score 120+ points) in today's game. Karlsson is the closest thing to being a great 2-way defenceman.

I'm just going to keep saying this.

5 years ago people on here swore up and down that there would never be a PPG defenseman in this league again. According to HFBoards circa 2012, Nick Lidstrom was the best offensive defenseman possible in the modern game, so he should get credit for being on a level with the all-time great offensive producers like Orr and Bourque. Just adjust your expectations downward and you'll see it.

5 years later, Erik Karlsson has utterly destroyed that theory by showing live and in the flesh that a modern defenseman CAN drive offense like a Coffey or Leetch. And now the new theory is that it's impossible for a defenseman to lead the league in scoring, because Karlsson's not doing it (yet) and he is after all the best possible defenseman in the modern game.

When are people going to learn? Before Orr came along and did these things, it was considered completely implausible that it could ever happen under any circumstances. Then he went out there and did it because he was that good. The next time a player that good comes along, there won't be a question of whether it's possible in today's game.

 

[Slimmy]

I'm a 64 yr. old man who was born and raised in Montreal. Being the contrarian that I am, I naturally became a Red Wings fan at the age of 5 because of Gordie Howe, who will always be my #1 idol. That being said in my, hopefully, humble opinion, Bobby Orr is the greatest, most complete player to ever play the game.

One could easily make the argument that we really never got to see Bobby Orr at his best as he suffered multiple knee injuries before and during his NHL career that required close to a dozen medical procedures. His career was effectively over at the age of 27.

I have no doubt that Orr would be as fast(if not faster) as McDavid in any head to head race. I know the tapes of his play really don't do justice to his ability, but I have seen Orr take the puck from behind his own net, lead the rush down the ice and be the first one back if the rush didn't result in a goal. Nobody could touch his speed.

Karlsson's offensive chops as a dman are easily are top 10. However he is nowhere close to either Orr, Lidstrom, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque or a dozen others in defensive ability

I've seen Karlsson many a times leading the rush and be the first one back to break up a play. You are not watching Karlsson if you say otherwise. Come on. God damn...

 

[Barrie22]

I've seen Karlsson many a times leading the rush and be the first one back to break up a play. You are not watching Karlsson if you say otherwise. Come on. God damn...

Have you ever seen karlsson kill off a entire 2 minute penalty kill by himself? Orr did that regularly.

And about the ruah and be 1st one back. I have seen burns do that before also. Guess he is on orr's level also.