Is it time to blow it up?

[GapToothedWonder]

Yandle can barely stay on his skates. You can pretend he's still functioning as a PP QB, but that's all it would be, a pretense. Atkinson doesn't have a single PPP all season.

Maybe you should try watching the Arizona and CBJ powerplays the Philly rejects are piling up actual points on. They are functional and create genuine scoring chances, unlike the Flyers PP since game 5.

Two of the Flyers 8 PPGs come off of ridiculous individual creativity from G and Coots. Those two bank behind the boards goals had nothing to do with the powerplay system. When JVR was asked if they were set plays he said no it was just Girouxs crazy creativity.

 

[Curufinwe]

Actually, Myers and Sanheim were actual dogshit in the bubble, Niskanen wasn't nearly as good as the regular season, but was still our best defenseman in the bubble.

No he wasn't. He already had one foot out the door to retirement by then.

 

[Embiid]

Yep. AV is a fine coach so long as he has a perfect, strong roster. Without injuries. With peak HOF goaltending.

My dog could be a fine coach in that situation.

Only in AV's mind does the definition of true leadership exclude adaptability and flexibility to conditions that are less than optimal/ideal...

 

[Beef Invictus]

The cupboard is not bare, Hextall left a lot of talent behind, but for a number of reasons, COVID, injuries, late bloomers, the bulk of his 2016-2018 drafts are a year or so away. And that's the lack of depth that injuries exposed this season. Say they resign G and Risto and move JVR this offseason, and the one year guys are gone:

G - Couts - TK
Farabee - Hayes - Atkinson
Lindblom - Frost - Allison
Laughton - Laczynski - MacEnew
Willman

Provorov - Ellis
Sanheim - Risto
York - Zamula

Hart - Fedotov

AHL
Lycksell - Desnoyers - Foerster
N Cates - JOB - Wisdom
Ratcliffe - Rubtsov - Sushko
??? - Bunnaman - Brodzinski

Hogberg - Attard
Millman - St Ivany
Zech - Clendening

Ersson - Sandstrom - Ustimenko

Always a year or two away.

 

[Hurricane28]

To be honest, it was time to blow it up 5-6 years ago. Simmonds, Giroux, Voracek all would've yielded assets that would've kick started the rebuild. The 2015 class was loaded and has not disappointed but that would've been a good place to really start in addition to Provorov/TK.

This retooling/rebuilding on the fly didn't work under Hextall and isn't working under Fletcher. But since they did go that route, what really did them in was yielding basically nothing from the 2016-2017 draft classes. Patrick being a total bust was a killer.

 

[Appleyard]

To be honest, it was time to blow it up 5-6 years ago. Simmonds, Giroux, Voracek all would've yielded assets that would've kick started the rebuild. The 2015 class was loaded and has not disappointed but that would've been a good place to really start in addition to Provorov/TK.

This retooling/rebuilding on the fly didn't work under Hextall and isn't working under Fletcher. But since they did go that route, what really did them in was yielding basically nothing from the 2016-2017 draft classes. Patrick being a total bust was a killer.

Simmonds was the obvious one. As much as I love him he should have been moved a year or two earlier when would have garnered a LOT.

 

[Embiid]

Simmonds was the obvious one. As much as I love him he should have been moved a year or two earlier when would have garnered a LOT.

This isn't something new with the Flyers......they completely screwed the pooch when they traded Poulin and Propp for less than equal value. Helped usher in 5 years of no playoffs until Lindros and then that experiment went to hell while Forsberg was winning cups and breaking records.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

We have been spinning our tires in the mud for far too long. Changes need to happen. But I have zero confidence it will be the necessary/right changes

 

[Appleyard]

If they are not in play-off contention by the deadline what they probably should do is (and this is extreme and they wont do this much even though maybe even more could be done, as will re-tool to a lesser degree)...

Fire entire coaching staff. Bring in an established, young HC with a history of success in AHL or AHL and then NHL assistant. Pick person wisely and one who aligns with what want to be and players have going forward.
If Giroux wont re-sign for a reasonable deal? Move him. Sadly.
Move Risto.
Move JvR. 1 year left should help. Try and not retain but bring back a useful, similar length, slightly overpaid depth player to squeeze out youth/pick value.
Move Braun.
Move Jones.

Preferably, especially in Giroux and Risto cases? For youngish talent that might be on cusp of breaking out. ESPECIALLY if someone who think *might* have a shot of being a 1D or 1C. But that will be very hard. And would have to identify right person.

And if can move 1-2 of TK, Farabee, Sanheim or Provorov to potentially get a future 1C/1D? Bite that bullet. But CANT move more than 1-2 of them unless something similar/better coming back as actually good, young-ish players. And all heading for down-ish years that means wont be at full value.

JvR, Braun and Jones? Yeh, picks and maybe a bit of salary back in JvRs case.

Try and move Brassard, Yandle, Thompson even if just get a couple of later picks between them.

Atkinson, Hayes and Ellis with their cap length though, and given that were Fletcher pick-ups, well, here to stay I guess. But in an ideal world? Move one or more for value.

And accept that next year, if get right coaching staff, well, probably a cusp-playoff team again.


But issue is... even with a "re-tool" of this degree, which is likely about most that will happen... how many actual legit 1C and 1D in NHL have been traded in last 15 years when still young?

Eichel? Yeh. That was the boat. But a gamble.
Seguin, Zibanejad and O'Reilly? But none "even" Giroux level.
Spurgeon? Great player but a fluke when he was still a "meh" prospect.
Sergachev? Traded for a top prospect at time... albeit Montreal were silly to move D for W prospect of similar level.
Hamilton? But he likes museums so lost value.
Suzuki? A maybe... and moved while a prospect.

That is:

5x 1C (4 who are below Giroux level at his best)
3x 1D

who have been moved from draft team before ~27 or so in the last 16 years. Maybe I am missing someone. But it is rare and half the time a luck exercise.

 

[deadhead]

Even when rebuilding, you need a core of veterans with the right intangibles, or your young stars often flounder without guidance. Couts, Hayes, Ellis isn't a bad group. Atkinson is probably as unmovable as Voracek, so you carry him until you can buy him out or move him with money retained in two years.

Giroux will come down to his decision, I think they respect him too much to move him if he wants to stay.

Sanheim and another asset for a top young center is the logical move, they have a lot of young defensemen on the way, and lack center depth - bring in a young center and eventually Hayes can move to RW. They have plenty of wings in the organization, but have totally flopped drafting centers. Sanheim is a solid 2nd pair guy, but he's probably who is is, a very good puck mover who will never be a good finisher.

 

[Appleyard]

Even when rebuilding, you need a core of veterans with the right intangibles, or your young stars often flounder without guidance. Couts, Hayes, Ellis isn't a bad group. Atkinson is probably as unmovable as Voracek, so you carry him until you can buy him out or move him with money retained in two years.

Giroux will come down to his decision, I think they respect him too much to move him if he wants to stay.

Sanheim and another asset for a top young center is the logical move, they have a lot of young defensemen on the way, and lack center depth - bring in a young center and eventually Hayes can move to RW. They have plenty of wings in the organization, but have totally flopped drafting centers. Sanheim is a solid 2nd pair guy, but he's probably who is is, a very good puck mover who will never be a good finisher.

But if can move Risto+ for similar why move Sanheim who is on a good deal, a better player, is 2 years younger, and has more upside?

I agree IF can move Sanheim+ for a potential 1C? Do it. But odds are minimal. As so few actual 1Cs. And have to therefore try and get one before become it. And odds of that are "meh". And even less get moved!

Flyers have drafted 4 of the best ~30-35 peak/prime C's in the NHL since 2003 (including 1 of the best 10, albeit the other 3 are in the 25-35 range!) and squandered all of them as never managed to have a 1C, 1D and 1G at same time.

 

[Embiid]

If they are not in play-off contention by the deadline what they probably should do is (and this is extreme and they wont do this much even though maybe even more could be done, as will re-tool to a lesser degree)...

Fire entire coaching staff. Bring in an established, young HC with a history of success in AHL or AHL and then NHL assistant. Pick person wisely and one who aligns with what want to be and players have going forward.
If Giroux wont re-sign for a reasonable deal? Move him. Sadly.
Move Risto.
Move JvR. 1 year left should help. Try and not retain but bring back a useful, similar length, slightly overpaid depth player to squeeze out youth/pick value.
Move Braun.
Move Jones.

Preferably, especially in Giroux and Risto cases? For youngish talent that might be on cusp of breaking out. ESPECIALLY if someone who think *might* have a shot of being a 1D or 1C. But that will be very hard. And would have to identify right person.

And if can move 1-2 of TK, Farabee, Sanheim or Provorov to potentially get a future 1C/1D? Bite that bullet. But CANT move more than 1-2 of them unless something similar/better coming back as actually good, young-ish players. And all heading for down-ish years that means wont be at full value.

JvR, Braun and Jones? Yeh, picks and maybe a bit of salary back in JvRs case.

Try and move Brassard, Yandle, Thompson even if just get a couple of later picks between them.

Atkinson, Hayes and Ellis with their cap length though, and given that were Fletcher pick-ups, well, here to stay I guess. But in an ideal world? Move one or more for value.

And accept that next year, if get right coaching staff, well, probably a cusp-playoff team again.


But issue is... even with a "re-tool" of this degree, which is likely about most that will happen... how many actual legit 1C and 1D in NHL have been traded in last 15 years when still young?

Eichel? Yeh. That was the boat. But a gamble.
Seguin, Zibanejad and O'Reilly? But none "even" Giroux level.
Spurgeon? Great player but a fluke when he was still a "meh" prospect.
Sergachev? Traded for a top prospect at time... albeit Montreal were silly to move D for W prospect of similar level.
Hamilton? But he likes museums so lost value.
Suzuki? A maybe... and moved while a prospect.

That is:

5x 1C (4 who are below Giroux level at his best)
3x 1D

who have been moved from draft team before ~27 or so in the last 16 years. Maybe I am missing someone. But it is rare and half the time a luck exercise.

Please sign on the dotted line.

Thanks

New Flyers GM:

.................................................
MR. APPLEYARD

 

[Chinatown88]

Offersheet Dubois

(This is a joke btw, f***ing Chuckles trading our picks)

 

[ajgoal]

Alright. Appleyard is on the shortlist for GM when I buy the team. Once the GoFundMe finally gets traction.

 

[GKJ]

A JVR trade will require either retained salary or taking dollars back. No way around that one.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

But if can move Risto+ for similar why move Sanheim who is on a good deal, a better player, is 2 years younger, and has more upside?

I agree IF can move Sanheim+ for a potential 1C? Do it. But odds are minimal. As so few actual 1Cs. And have to therefore try and get one before become it. And odds of that are "meh". And even less get moved!

Flyers have drafted 4 of the best ~30-35 peak/prime C's in the NHL since 2003 (including 1 of the best 10, albeit the other 3 are in the 25-35 range!) and squandered all of them as never managed to have a 1C, 1D and 1G at same time.

G, Couts and Richards? Who's your 4th? Carter?

 

[Appleyard]

G, Couts and Richards? Who's your 4th? Carter?

Yeh... just! Right at bottom end over ~2008-2018 or so. Though can see argument for him at more like 40. But a fantastic two-way player and great goal-scorer.

 

[deadhead]

Risto won't get you a top young center at the TDL, teams trading for players want to strengthen for a PO run, so they'll trade draft picks and not for ready prospects, not established players.

Sanheim might over the summer, maybe in a package with say a goaltender prospect.

 

[Appleyard]

Please sign on the dotted line.

Thanks

New Flyers GM:

.................................................
MR. APPLEYARD

Proof is in the pudding eh?

1st year as Flyers GM after creating dynasty's with Detroit, Winnipeg and Vancouver. (with Le Mat Trophy wins in my MoDo, Björklöven and Piteå in my ~2 year at a time breaks from the NHL ahaha.)

Hope it does not take that long for #3 in real life though...

 

[Beef Invictus]

Making the defense even worse for a goalie prospect is definitely an idea.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

View attachment 483700

Proof is in the pudding eh?

1st year as Flyers GM after creating dynasty's with Detroit, Winnipeg and Vancouver. (with Le Mat Trophy wins in my MoDo, Björklöven and Piteå in my ~2 year at a time breaks from the NHL ahaha.)

Hope it does not take that long for #3 in real life though...

What happened in 2040/41? Ruined a really nice run for Winnipeg.

 

[Appleyard]

What happened in 2040/41? Ruined a really nice run for Winnipeg.

I left after 39-40 to win MoDo a Le Matt trophy after 4x cups in a row aha. MoDo job never came up and when it did jumped at it... and went to Canucks when had won 2x.

2019-32: Red Wings
2032-35: Bjorkloven
2035-40: Jets
2040-43: MoDo
2043-51: Canucks
2051-54: Pitea
2054-: Flyers

The Winnipeg team was the best I ever built in entire EHM playing days.

Had Kane, Sundin, Lidstrom, Timonen, Ehlers, Gaudreau, Price regens together... all through draft, all within 2 years of each other. Just unbeatable. When I left they were all max ~23. Immense depth too. 15 years later and the Kane and Sundin regens are almost 40 and still top 20 in NHL points.

Canucks were fun too though even if not quite as dominant. Zetterberg, Pastrnak, Landeskog, Chara, Karlsson, Burns, Quick regens at same time. Also had Zuccarello... and ofc only knew as very obvious ahaha.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sanheim is the team’s top ES dman

 

[renberg]

If it’s going to be keeping one of Ristolainen or Sanheim, Travis stays and gets extended. Some may say that his play and numbers aren’t great but when you see who he is paired with, like tonight, he’s the far better player. Keep and extend.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Sutter was only ever coming back to coach Calgary, but not taking a shot at Trotz was definitely a mistake.

The bigger mistake was replacing Hextall with Fletcher, though.

True on the Sutter part he wanted to stay in Alberta, but who knows what a boatload of money can do? Fletcher is an upgrade over Hextall though...but not a significant one.