Is Hall injured?

[Spawn]

He is playing bad, nope....the sacred cow is forgiven.

Gagner, who p[people already didn't like gets his face broken, comes back with a shield and face guard in short order and then promptly gets villified for being a crap lousy player.

Your post is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Every other player who is playing bad gets no quarter around here, they are just bad. Hall plays bad and 'it must be an injury'.

When a players play bad, who otherwise their entire career has played well, there is usually a reason. In this case the most obvious answer is injury since him coming back from injury directly coincides with his drop in play.

You disagree? I already asked you for a more likely alternative to explain his bad play the last month. You've yet to provide one. Other than "he's playing bad." Which he is. I'm just trying to provide a likely reason for it.

Just a bad player that lucked into two elite seasons?

 

[s7ark]

Yes. He doesn't have that jump in his first step that is a huge part of his game. I know Hall is an ultra competitive guy, and doesn't want to be see as injury prone, but it's better to shut him down now and get whatever surgery done that he will obviously have to get done. This season is a write off. Let him get surgery and prepare for next season when he'll probably have McDavid or Eichel on his line.

 

[Spawn]

He was -15 last season and barely a plus the year before. He's a career -31 player. Poor teams have something to do with that but so does poor puck management and as talented as he is, Hall has piss poor puck management. Always has. Think about it, he nearly led the league in ESP last year yet is -15. +/- is not a great stat but honestly that to me seems a bit shocking. The three guys above in ESP were a combined +78. In fact of the top 30 in that category on Hall, and defensive stalwarts Phil Kessel and Kyle Okposo were minus players.

He might be hurt OR his injuries from, let's face it, pretty reckless play may be catching up to him already. Or a combination.

No matter what I don't think injury is the only reason for the play and it may not even be the major reason.

He has exceptional offensive talent but there at least has to be some question about what goes on between his ears and if the effort/work ethic is there.

"Plus/minus is not a good stat, but I'm going to use it anyway..."

Okay then.

The three guys ahead of Hall in ESP last year were a combined +78 and played on elite teams with proper management and coaching. You know John Tavares has never been a plus player in his career? Career -50. Matt Duchene career -26. Ryan Johansen career -18. If you play on a bad team, chances are you're going to have a bad +/-

As for effort/work ethic... this notion only started creeping up after he came back from injury... coincidence? I doubt it. This forum is all what have you done for me lately, and forget everything else you've done up to that point in your career.

 

[shoop]

Reading the trade rumour stories it seems like Hall's issues are at least partly non-physical.

What does it mean that he's not the leader in the room they expect? The team expects a number one guy in the locker room like Messier. Hall apparently isn't that guy. Which is part of the reason he is up for discussion.

Nuge is growing into his own and that is evident in his play. Somehow that is adding to the pressure on Hall.

The way Hall plays he is usually going to be nicked up and recovering from some sort of injury. It can't be an excuse. Got to get his head right!

 

[Soundwave]

He was

10GP 6G, 4A, 10 points +3

prior to getting hurt this year.

So yes, he's playing hurt. It's obvious to see he is a step or two slower right now and it's even clear to see the knee buckles on RNH's 7th goal of the season.

Lets not forget he took a cheap shot dirty hit from Garbutt after coming back right to the knee as well. No doubt that did not help matters.

 

[Spawn]

Reading the trade rumour stories it seems like Hall's issues are at least partly non-physical.

What does it mean that he's not the leader in the room they expect? The team expects a number one guy in the locker room like Messier. Hall apparently isn't that guy. Which is part of the reason he is up for discussion.

Nuge is growing into his own and that is evident in his play. Somehow that is adding to the pressure on Hall.

The way Hall plays he is usually going to be nicked up and recovering from some sort of injury. It can't be an excuse. Got to get his head right!

You mean the rumours from Darren Dreger that were called media driven by Lebrun, McKenzie and Friedman, and denied by Dallas Eakins at his exit interview?

 

[Beerfish]

When a players play bad, who otherwise their entire career has played well, there is usually a reason. In this case the most obvious answer is injury since him coming back from injury directly coincides with his drop in play.

You disagree? I already asked you for a more likely alternative to explain his bad play the last month. You've yet to provide one. Other than "he's playing bad." Which he is. I'm just trying to provide a likely reason for it.

Just a bad player that lucked into two elite seasons?

I'll provide the same alternatives why other players are playing bad that are given out by this forum........crickets.

Almost no other player gets the benefit of people searching why they are worse, they just get abused. Why did Gagner suddenly play much worse after a very good strike shortened season? no one said a thing and no one cares. Why did Duby go into the tank after a pretty good season? no one knows and no one cares.

Why is Hall playing bad? Welp, we have to scour the earth to explain how this is at all possible.

Hall is a good player, our best player, an exciting scorer, he should in no way shape or form be handed excuses when he plays poorly when most of the rest of the team just gets gored by fans.

 

[cj354]

Yes. He doesn't have that jump in his first step that is a huge part of his game. I know Hall is an ultra competitive guy, and doesn't want to be see as injury prone, but it's better to shut him down now and get whatever surgery done that he will obviously have to get done. This season is a write off. Let him get surgery and prepare for next season when he'll probably have McDavid or Eichel on his line.

I think this is the biggest indicator for injury as well as the most important factor in Hall's downswing this season. Hall has many tools at his disposal no doubt, but what gives him the edge/makes him elite at the NHL level is his speed. His entire game is built on speed: the ability to carry the puck out of the defensive zone and into o zone with a few strides, ability to burn defenders/push back defenders (I think this may be most critical because if defenders don't fear Halls speed the same they can play him totally different), ability to backcheck, and likely most important his confidence. Where do you think all of these turnovers are coming from? He's clearly trying to force it and create something because he's having difficulty playing the game he is used to.

I'm not sure what to say really as to why he hasn't been shut down though. I'll go ahead and assume he's "medically cleared" to play, but what does that even mean really? They can check/assess the knee until they're blue in the face, verifying stability etc. But in the end it's on the player if they want to return or not, and I imagine Hall being the competitor he is wants back in the game asap. I'm sure his knee is functional but there's no way it's where it should be to support the speed game that Hall needs to play.

 

[Beerfish]

He was

10GP 6G, 4A, 10 points +3

prior to getting hurt this year.

So yes, he's playing hurt. It's obvious to see he is a step or two slower right now and it's even clear to see the knee buckles on RNH's 7th goal of the season.

Lets not forget he took a cheap shot dirty hit from Garbutt after coming back right to the knee as well. No doubt that did not help matters.

Can I cherry pick the good stats for Schultz, gagner, Duby, Eberle, Yakupov as well?

 

[Soundwave]

Can I cherry pick the good stats for Schultz, gagner, Duby, Eberle, Yakupov as well?

Sure, just show me where they've been above ppg producers for two straight seasons and started off this year at a ppg again before getting injured.

Gagner, Schultz, Yakupov ... don't make me laugh ... none of these guys have come close to ever sniffing the production that Hall has made consistent the last couple of years.

There's only like 6 players in the entire league who are above a PPG each of the last two seasons (Crosby, Getzlaf, Ovechkin, Hall, and then Stamkos and Malkin, with the latter two missing a ton of games).

If anyone's cherry picking it's you, you are cherry picking clearly the worst portion of Hall's career during a stretch where he came back from knee injury and then took a huge (illegal) hit to the knee again by Garbutt.

 

[Spawn]

Can I cherry pick the good stats for Schultz, gagner, Duby, Eberle, Yakupov as well?

You're getting into a rather abstract argument here that really just seems to be a critique of this forum rather than actually having anything to do with the question at hand. That's fine I suppose, this forum is often times a pretty crappy place.

 

[shoop]

MacT's job is to determine the value of Hall in order to determine the peak time to trade him.

I suspect MacT will stay behind the bench an extra game or so to determine what he thinks is going on with Hall. There definitely is a physical component to what Hall thinks, but there is more going on than that.

He just seems frustrated all the time. Put him in three press box one game a week for maintenance to start. Let his recovery dictate his playing time.

That will help him calm down and really help with the knee. It's also good to communicate the plan for him so people get a glimpse of this 'process'.

His value will be the highest in the off-season. If he returns to ppg form in March and April then hold onto him.

By the end of the season his value to the team should be clearer, as long as the rehab is handled properly.

 

[member 145483]

It's getting kind of laughable that every time a player plays through injury, it is management's fault.

Newsflash...no it isn't!

Not only is a player REQUIRED to have medical clearance prior to stepping on the ice...that determination is made between the player and their doctor.

No management involved, period.

No, players are not required to use team provided medical staff, they are legally allowed to use any registered doctor in Canada.

 

[tantalum]

"Plus/minus is not a good stat, but I'm going to use it anyway..."

Okay then.

The three guys ahead of Hall in ESP last year were a combined +78 and played on elite teams with proper management and coaching. You know John Tavares has never been a plus player in his career? Career -50. Matt Duchene career -26. Ryan Johansen career -18. If you play on a bad team, chances are you're going to have a bad +/-

As for effort/work ethic... this notion only started creeping up after he came back from injury... coincidence? I doubt it. This forum is all what have you done for me lately, and forget everything else you've done up to that point in your career.

It's not a spectacular stat, HOWEVER, when you are the leading the scorer on your team AND essentially last in +/- on your team despite getting a bunch of ESP....that is not good (Perron was -16). It simply isn't. There is no way to spin that other than being a major part of the defensive issues with the team. It isn't everyone else's fault when there is that disparity. It's a "you're a part of the problem" stat.

If you play on a bad team you can also be a plus player. What the guys you list have in common is that they aren't particularly good at the defensive side of the game either. Not sure it proves anything other than bad defensive players don't tend to have good +/- numbers. Landeskog is +27 in his career on that same bad team Duchene is on for instance.

But you don't even need the stat. It's not a surprising one. Hall makes terrible decisions with the puck time and time again that lead to terrific scoring chances against. That's been a constant through junior and in the NHL.

Effort...is it injury or is he tired of it. I'm not saying he is known for lack of effort. he isn't. He isn't Kessel for instance in that regard. However, right now that effort is not there. I can't just chalk that up to injury. Injury may limit effectiveness but it doesn't limit effort. When I look at Hall right now I don't say "wow he is really trying but he just doesn't have the speed" but rather "he doesn't look as fast but he also really isn't trying so I'm not sure". It's certainly not every shift but it is enough of them to know that the problem is more of an effort one from what I see.

On the surface everyone can say "well can you blame him?". The answer can logically be "No". But then you have to ask yourself as management if you think he can get back that work ethic or if he has checked out for good. If it's the latter you can't build around him. You also have to look and see if you feel this lack of effort isn't a recurring theme at times under multiple coaches. Is it just part of his game (like it seems to be for a Phil Kessel)? Is it an anomally?

No matter what, it is IMO foolish to simply chalk it up to an injury. It is more than that.

 

[Arpeggio]

He can barely skate out there. He's getting beaten to pucks by bottom pairing defencemen. No question he's injured.

 

[Soundwave]

It's not a spectacular stat, HOWEVER, when you are the leading the scorer on your team AND essentially last in +/- on your team despite getting a bunch of ESP....that is not good (Perron was -16). It simply isn't. There is no way to spin that other than being a major part of the defensive issues with the team. It isn't everyone else's fault when there is that disparity. It's a "you're a part of the problem" stat.

If you play on a bad team you can also be a plus player. What the guys you list have in common is that they aren't particularly good at the defensive side of the game either. Not sure it proves anything other than bad defensive players don't tend to have good +/- numbers. Landeskog is +27 in his career on that same bad team Duchene is on for instance.

But you don't even need the stat. It's not a surprising one. Hall makes terrible decisions with the puck time and time again that lead to terrific scoring chances against. That's been a constant through junior and in the NHL.

Effort...is it injury or is he tired of it. I'm not saying he is known for lack of effort. he isn't. He isn't Kessel for instance in that regard. However, right now that effort is not there. I can't just chalk that up to injury. Injury may limit effectiveness but it doesn't limit effort. When I look at Hall right now I don't say "wow he is really trying but he just doesn't have the speed" but rather "he doesn't look as fast but he also really isn't trying so I'm not sure". It's certainly not every shift but it is enough of them to know that the problem is more of an effort one from what I see.

On the surface everyone can say "well can you blame him?". The answer can logically be "No". But then you have to ask yourself as management if you think he can get back that work ethic or if he has checked out for good. If it's the latter you can't build around him. You also have to look and see if you feel this lack of effort isn't a recurring theme at times under multiple coaches. Is it just part of his game (like it seems to be for a Phil Kessel)? Is it an anomally?

No matter what, it is IMO foolish to simply chalk it up to an injury. It is more than that.

Have you played hockey at a high level?

Have you ever taken a hit to your knee like this by a 200+ pound man?

odfFrESodjQ



Lets just save the "it can't just be injury". It sure as hell can be, as a matter fact I'm not even sure how Hall is even still playing right now. That type of hit has ended some players' careers entirely.

 

[Beerfish]

You're getting into a rather abstract argument here that really just seems to be a critique of this forum rather than actually having anything to do with the question at hand. That's fine I suppose, this forum is often times a pretty crappy place.

Eh? That post was not an abstract argument at all. The poster listed the fine stats of Hall and then indicated he must be hurt because his stats fell off. My response follows the line of back and forth posts. We suddenly see a post talking about Halls good play and then poor play but as I've said in repeated posts we never saw any 'Sam Gagner stats the year before he broke his face and then stats afterwards. All we saw was Gagner sucks horribly for a year.

Just a simple concept, hold all players up to the same standards, the same evaluations and the same judgements.

 

[Tarus]

It's getting kind of laughable that every time a player plays through injury, it is management's fault.

Newsflash...no it isn't!

Not only is a player REQUIRED to have medical clearance prior to stepping on the ice...that determination is made between the player and their doctor.

No management involved, period.

No, players are not required to use team provided medical staff, they are legally allowed to use any registered doctor in Canada.

You're saying that the management group that has been openly accused by players of pressuring them to play through injuries, has no say in whether a player gets on the ice with an injury or not?

 

[Spawn]

Eh? That post was not an abstract argument at all. The poster listed the fine stats of Hall and then indicated he must be hurt because his stats fell off. My response follows the line of back and forth posts. We suddenly see a post talking about Halls good play and then poor play but as I've said in repeated posts we never saw any 'Sam Gagner stats the year before he broke his face and then stats afterwards. All we saw was Gagner sucks horribly for a year.

Just a simple concept, hold all players up to the same standards, the same evaluations and the same judgements.

We saw plenty of those posts. I defended Gagner for years after this forum turned on him en mass. I've also spent my fair share of time defending Dubnyk, Eberle and Schultz.

The argument you appear to be making is that no one else catches breaks on this forum so Hall shouldn't either. Maybe I'm just missing what's going on. It's very possible.

 

[Dorian2]

Are Hallsy's eyes injured?

I watched him give at least 8 pucks away in 2 periods last night.

He's playing like a third rate turd encumbered by toilet paper.

The difference between this is that we know what Hall can bring, so it's just a matter of time before this crap is hopefully coached out of him.

It's about that time in Hall's career where he better start looking a little closer at his mistakes....turnovers have been terribad for this player since he was drafted.

 

[sepHF]

It's getting kind of laughable that every time a player plays through injury, it is management's fault.

Newsflash...no it isn't!

Not only is a player REQUIRED to have medical clearance prior to stepping on the ice...that determination is made between the player and their doctor.

No management involved, period.

No, players are not required to use team provided medical staff, they are legally allowed to use any registered doctor in Canada.

Perhaps you missed this:

His experience in Edmonton began on the wrong foot for Souray when he arrived at his first training camp nursing a shoulder injury.

"I wasn’t even ready to play when I came here, but it was like, ‘We signed you, you go out and play.’ I hadn’t been cleared to play yet, but I was being questioned by the organization:‘When are you going to be able to play?’

"I go out, play six games, and I get hurt."

Souray said it wasn’t the training staff applying the pressure; it was "management."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/souray-request/

 

[0ilerman]

You're saying that the management group that has been openly accused by players of pressuring them to play through injuries, has no say in whether a player gets on the ice with an injury or not?

Bang on. Past players and coaches are on record saying the organization has forced players to return before healthy.

Another example of management sticking to a way of thinking that worked in the 80s and 90s, but is out-dated and counter productive in the modern NHL.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Maybe Taylor shouldn't skate into goal posts next time.

That play looks almost as bad as his play. If there's any accountability (and I know there isn't) he should sit for a game.

Meanwhile RNH and Eberle look so much better.

 

[Cawz]

He's 100% injured.

His first game back from injury you could see that his speed was down.

Someone on these boards mentioned he was wearing a knee brace in the locker-room. Haven't seen the video myself though, but i'll take his word on it.

They showed him stretching in the locker room prior to the game on Tuesday with it on. It was a big brace too.

The thing that surprised me was that he was sitting and stretching and still had it on. When I was wearing a knee brace, I tried to stretch as much as possible without it to test my range of motion. I only used it for sports. The fact that he had it on while doing sit-down stretches spoke volumes to me.

 

[member 145483]

You're saying that the management group that has been openly accused by players of pressuring them to play through injuries, has no say in whether a player gets on the ice with an injury or not?

Yes, management has ZERO say in it.

It would be illegal for management to do so. It is covered by Canadian Labour Laws, as well as enshrined in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Section 7).

There is no maybe's or if's about this.

Not only would the Oilers be legally screwed if any of the allegations were even remotely true, they would lose their insurance as well. Which would mean zero Oilers hockey, period. No insurance, no play. That is covered in CBA.