Is Eugene Melnyk the Worst Owner in the League?

[CCM19]

Just because you have a deep pool doesn't mean you throw away draft picks.

... Ken Holland did that crap in 2012 for Kyle Quincey, when Detroit's pool was considered above average. We could've had Vasilevsky or Maatta with that pick, and would've been far better off.

Why not? They are draft picks. They are literally nobody right now unless you get a top 5 pick. Ottawa is great at drafting. Some of their prospects in their farm right now are almost NHL ready. What’s wrong with that? Are you some psychic that can see the future draft picks that Ottawa gave up? If so tell me more.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Wow I'm so enlightened by all these comments.

Somehow when we gave up the farm Chabot, Brown, White, Jaros, Harpur, and company got left behind.

Its not like Duchene won't get us a first and prospect next year at the deadline if it comes to that. In that case we only give up a 3rd and dump Hammonds contract for 1 year of Duchene while White and Brown develop.

Yeah what a fleecing

So this year we're giving up picks to contend, because our pool is deep and we don't need them. But next year we're selling guys off for picks? What kind of bi-polar stuff is this?!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Why not? They are draft picks. They are literally nobody right now unless you get a top 5 pick. Ottawa is great at drafting. Some of their prospects in their farm right now are almost NHL ready. What’s wrong with that? Are you some psychic that can see the future draft picks that Ottawa gave up? If so tell me more.

Obviously no team wants to give up draft picks, but you have to give to get, and I'd much rather the Sens give up a few picks and a 28th overall first rounder than any of their bluechippers or a young roster player.

 

[Sureves]

So this year we're giving up picks to contend, because our pool is deep and we don't need them. But next year we're selling guys off for picks? What kind of bi-polar stuff is this?!

The Senators can't afford (from a hard-cap perspective) to keep all of: Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Brassard, Turris, Ryan, Phaneuf; while keeping Colin White who is looking like a good candidate to be a #2C.

Therefore, when Turris was looking to sign his deal, the Sens really didn't want to give him the contract he wanted since the Sens have every intention of using White as the #2C going forward and having a center on an ELC that works with the cap.

So they moved Turris for Duchene. I'm not entirely convinced the Sens even plan on re-signing Duchene, likely they are just buying another year of development for White so that he can transition into that #2C role more slowly and smoothly.

It actually makes perfect sense. And, since Duchene is a better center than Turris, it is also possible that the Sens may actually offer Duchene the big contract he wants, to stay as the #1C and let Brassard walk when he hits UFA. This will likely be the case of Duchene wants to stay and he has played well for Ottawa.

 

[Drytoast]

He's going for it. Can't really fault him for making this move.

None of you guys have nothing on Ballard. Count your lucky stars.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Why not? They are draft picks. They are literally nobody right now unless you get a top 5 pick. Ottawa is great at drafting. Some of their prospects in their farm right now are almost NHL ready. What’s wrong with that? Are you some psychic that can see the future draft picks that Ottawa gave up? If so tell me more.

This is ridiculously contradictory. You're correct, they're unknowns. However, regardless of how unknown they are, they still have value. And if Ottawa is great at drafting, as you point out, they'd make the most of the pick.

Back to my example of Holland selling a pick for Kyle Quincey, had he pulled that same crap in 2013 or 2014, they'd be without Mantha and Larkin, both of whom are the main reasons the team isn't completely in the tank.

Hell, had Ottawa thrown away their pick in 2008, which wasn't exactly a good pick nor was it that great of a draft, they wouldn't have Erik Karlsson.

You don't sell away multiple picks/prospects for a downgrade in production (Yes, Turris has outproduced Duchene over a lengthy period of time) on the bet that Duchene resurges, considering even if he does reemerge, it still wont be enough to make up that value.

 

[Mr Hat]

So this year we're giving up picks to contend, because our pool is deep and we don't need them. But next year we're selling guys off for picks? What kind of bi-polar stuff is this?!

I'm just poking holes in your value assessment. If shit hits the fan Sens can dump Duchene for a similar return to what we just spent even after a full season. Mgmt has more faith in Brown/White long term than Turris and made the team better over the next two years.

Next year with Chabot and our other NHL ready prospects Sens have a very complete roster.

What were the last 5 first round picks of the Wings? How many will be impact players?

 

[CCM19]

This is ridiculously contradictory. You're correct, they're unknowns. However, regardless of how unknown they are, they still have value. And if Ottawa is great at drafting, as you point out, they'd make the most of the pick.

Back to my example of Holland selling a pick for Kyle Quincey, had he pulled that same crap in 2013 or 2014, they'd be without Mantha and Larkin, both of whom are the main reasons the team isn't completely in the tank.

Hell, had Ottawa thrown away their pick in 2008, which wasn't exactly a good pick nor was it that great of a draft, they wouldn't have Erik Karlsson.

You don't sell away multiple picks/prospects for a downgrade in production (Yes, Turris has outproduced Duchene over a lengthy period of time) on the bet that Duchene resurges, considering even if he does reemerge, it still wont be enough to make up that value.

Nobody knows. It’s a risk the Sens were obviously willing to make. The reason they gave up so many picks was because they didn’t get rid of Chabot, White, or Brown. The picks Ottawa gave up tonight literally cannot help or hurt them this season. Their scouting staff, coaching staff, and management see something in Duchene that can help them THIS season, and NEXT season.

I see it this way. Dorion is going for it while Karlsson is still under contract. Then who knows, maybe those picks will be worth something? It just doesn’t matter in the now. If it hurts them in 2 years but the Sens somehow win a cup, will it matter?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

What were the last 5 first round picks of the Wings? How many will be impact players?

Oof. If you're hoping to poke holes in the argument that draft picks matter, Detroit was a bad example.

... Considering their 2013 and 2014 picks currently lead the team in points and are both on pace for PPG seasons. As they were picked at 20th and 15th respectively, neither pick was exactly good draft positioning.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Have to laugh at how many times I've read "AND they gave up a 1st and a 3rd" or some variation in the past couple hours. It's like picks lose their value the moment they're used. It's probably because nobody recognizes/remembers Bowers as the guy Ottawa just picked in the 1st round this past draft. It was late yeah so the future 1st likely holds more value, but "1st" always seems to have more value that "name of guy picked in the 1st round" and I find it funny.

Granted plenty of people know who Bowers is too, which adds to their argument, I just laugh at those who skip over him like he's nothing

Anyway just figured I'd have that rant for now.

 

[Korpse]

Nobody's saying Duchene wont serve Ottawa well. The issue is the amount the paid for what is, at best, a minor upgrade. And also that yes, many believe Melnyk didn't want to pay Turris. Whether it was the amount or term involved.

I agree they paid a lot, whether or not its worth the price is still up in the air. Every report I've seen has suggested it was term which was the issue, so theres that. I mean Dreger did report that Ottawa made an offer of $30 million/5 years, so i don't know is it really about the dollars?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Nobody knows. It’s a risk the Sens were obviously willing to make. The reason they gave up so many picks was because they didn’t get rid of Chabot, White, or Brown. The picks Ottawa gave up tonight literally cannot help or hurt them this season. Their scouting staff, coaching staff, and management see something in Duchene that can help them THIS season, and NEXT season.

I see it this way. Dorion is going for it while Karlsson is still under contract. Then who knows, maybe those picks will be worth something? It just doesn’t matter in the now. If it hurts them in 2 years but the Sens somehow win a cup, will it matter?

If they win the Cup then yes, they win. I just don't see a minor-at-best upgrade of Turris to Duchene pushing them over that hump. Again, Turris has outproduced Duchene, though I do think Duchene will do better with Ottawa.

And even if it did, you could easily argue keeping Turris and using the 1st/3rd/Bowers to pick up one or more deadline acquisitions. That package could easily get you a player that adds more than the difference between Turris and Duchene, if it's about going "All-in".

 

[Mr Hat]

Oof. If you're hoping to poke holes in the argument that draft picks matter, Detroit was a bad example.

... Considering their 2013 and 2014 picks currently lead the team in points and are both on pace for PPG seasons. As they were picked at 20th and 15th respectively, neither pick was exactly good draft positioning.

Larkin is good but the only one who looks like a high end talent. Small sample sizes, like most teams the majority of wings top picks are still unproven or have turned into role players. Its like a 30% hit rate for a 1st round pick after the top few players who stand out.

 

[Sens Rule]

Are Sens fans going to lie to themselves that this isn't purely about $? All that for 1 more year of Duchense.

This was about improving the team now and not giving Turris a 6-8 year deal.

You don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[CCM19]

If they win the Cup then yes, they win. I just don't see a minor-at-best upgrade of Turris to Duchene pushing them over that hump. Again, Turris has outproduced Duchene, though I do think Duchene will do better with Ottawa.

And even if it did, you could easily argue keeping Turris and using the 1st/3rd/Bowers to pick up one or more deadline acquisitions. That package could easily get you a player that adds more than the difference between Turris and Duchene, if it's about going "All-in".

Guess we’ll find out but the trade is not even a day old.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Larkin is good but the only one who looks like a high end talent. Small sample sizes, like most teams the majority of wings top picks are still unproven or have turned into role players. Its like a 30% hit rate for a 1st round pick after the top few players who stand out.

Mantha...

Svechnikov (19th) has played well up to this year. Not off to a hot start this season but also started off injured. Cholowski (20th) was ridiculed as a reach (By myself included) and has since raised his stock. I can't personally say a lot about him because I haven't followed him. I didn't like the Rasmussen pick (9th) due to who was left on the board (Vilardi particularly) but he was projected to go right at 9, so there's hardly been enough time to say yay or nay on that pick.

 

[Mr Hat]

Mantha...

Svechnikov (19th) has played well up to this year. Not off to a hot start this season but also started off injured. Cholowski (20th) was ridiculed as a reach (By myself included) and has since raised his stock. I can't personally say a lot about him because I haven't followed him. I didn't like the Rasmussen pick (9th) due to who was left on the board (Vilardi particularly) but he was projected to go right at 9, so there's hardly been enough time to say yay or nay on that pick.

Until proven otherwise most those players are easily replacable. Literally a dime a dozen. Mantha and Larkin may work out, but at least half the players you listed won't pan out to much.

So you wouldn't give up Cholo + Sven for one year of Duchene? Seems like a no brainer when you look at picks in hindsight

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Until proven otherwise most those players are easily replacable. Literally a dime a dozen. Mantha and Larkin may work out, but at least half the players you listed won't pan out to much.

Won't pan out or you think they wont. Because so far none have had any indicators that they wont. The two that have came to the NHL are already panning out very well.

So you wouldn't give up Cholo + Sven for one year of Duchene? Seems like a no brainer when you look at picks in hindsight

Cholo + Sven for a year of Duchene? Sure, I'd definitely consider that... That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about Cholo+Sven+ZETTERBERG (Imagine he's 28) for Duchene.

No I'm not comparing Turris to Zetterberg, just saying you're talking about Cholo+Sven+ our current top center for Duchene.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

The hate for Melnyk is way too outrageous. Him being so loud in the media surely doesn't help, but his actual cap management is quite good.

 

[JD1]

My guess is they could've worked with him on term... Considering Nashville literally signed him to 6 years an hour after he was traded.

ya but see that's just your guess ....it seemed Ottawa didn't want to move forward with this player...that's my read of the tea leaves on this end in Ottawa and I think that was a prudent hockey decision

 

[SENSational]

As someone who's watched a lot of obviously Turris, and a lot of Duchene, "marginally upgrade" makes me laugh. I'd much rather invest in Duchene long term than Turris, high price to pay, but it's worth it for an actual #1 center.

Melnyk is a terrible owner but this trade has absolutely nothing to do with that.

 

[JD1]

Do elaborate. Because any way you slice it, Ottawa got hosed... And that was before Nashville extended Turris.

you seem pretty riled up about this

I'd argue that Nashville got hosed signing Turris to the deal

 

[SENSational]

Turris is actually a perfect fit in Nashville (6 years is way too much though). He is incredibly weak, it's so frustrating to watch because if he was stronger, he would be a much more valuable player.

 

[joe dirte]

Are Sens fans going to lie to themselves that this isn't purely about $? All that for 1 more year of Duchense.

are you joking? I am not a fan of the sens but they just robbed the avs.

still not contenders but wow they did well here. turris quite frankly sucks as a 1st line centre. duchene does not and will do well.

they're still not contenders though. lol.

 

[Butch 19]

So many falsehoods here, I don't even know where to start.

Well, Chicago fans did practically rejoice at Bill Wirtz's death. The booing of him upon his death may have been disrespectful, but it was also totally EARNED.

If the old man was still alive today and running the show, they would not have 3 recent Cups.