Is Detroit the only team where "best player will play" is not standard procedure?

[silkyjohnson50]

I didn't see that game but to be fair some night teams are just skating in slush. The big club will have those nights as well. Lidstrom had those nights. The difference here is when Kindl plays "okay" people scrutinize his every play and magnify the negative impact. Prospects are automatically assumed to be better than roster players so there is a tendency to try to justify that assumption.

Didn't you defend Nyquist not starting with the big club last season, because it created depth or something of that silly nature?

 

[Winger98]

I didn't see that game but to be fair some night teams are just skating in slush. The big club will have those nights as well. Lidstrom had those nights. The difference here is when Kindl plays "okay" people scrutinize his every play and magnify the negative impact. Prospects are automatically assumed to be better than roster players so there is a tendency to try to justify that assumption.

I think the bigger difference is that Babcock repeatedly mentioned the best players playing, ties not going to vets, etc., then making it pretty clear XO had "won" a job, only to send the kid down and do what we do every year.

If the Wings weren't prepared to live by what they said, they should have kept their mouths shut and just sent the kid down.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Didn't you defend Nyquist not starting with the big club last season, because it created depth or something of that silly nature?

I don't really understand the argument of Nyquist not benefiting from that. Argue the team might have been hurt, but he ripped apart the AHL came up with full confidence right into a top 6 role which he wasn't getting the first month and never looked back

Would have our position in the standings been drastically different at the end? Maybe we get the Pens?

Hard though to argue that being sent down damaged Nyquist in any way, even in interviews he mentions the confidence he gained down there and he approached that as a complete professional and got better during his time down.

Sending these guys down does create depth. Injuries are going to happen, they go into each season with the idea of having 16 ready NHL forwards and 9 ready AHL D-man. That is the plan and really it has helped some in the last two seasons as we struggled. Now the big problem here is these guys are exposed to injuries in the AHL as well. I get the argument from both sides, but this philosophy does create depth. Problem now is they would have it while trimming some of the fat, so now we are getting to an area where Lashoff and Kindl are under fire and should be ushered out.

Cleary obviously shouldn't have been back last year, then again Sammy should have accepted the buyout. Still the idea of having two players ready at forward and D-man at the AHL level continuing to get better isn't a bad one.

The idea of having three and four is a problem for me though and one we need to get sorted out and make decisions about over the next twelve months, like we have started doing at forward, it needs to happen on D. If Quincey plays like he did opening night and the back-half the season he is movable in the final year of his deal as well. Kindl and Lashoff should be sorted out barring Kindl finding the lockout shortened version of himself, even in that scenario my opinion is to move on.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Didn't you defend Nyquist not starting with the big club last season, because it created depth or something of that silly nature?

I wasn't outraged by it and I am not outraged by XO being sent down. I wanted to see Gus play and I want to see XO but it's working out pretty good so far.

I don't see where it harmed Gus' development any. He seemed to play with confidence right out of the gate and I think that was by design. It is just my opinion. I don't have all the data that the team has. I just have their track record to go by which is pretty good.

Could it be that Babs endorsed the kid on his way down for just that reason? "Coach loves you kid but there isn't a spot yet". Much better than "you are not good enough, go play with kids". Now the kid goes down thinking he is an NHL guy playing with kids instead of feeling like he failed. Most likely he will play in the AHL with confidence and tear it up. He will likely get a few call ups and the coach will likely endorse him on his way back down.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I think the bigger difference is that Babcock repeatedly mentioned the best players playing, ties not going to vets, etc., then making it pretty clear XO had "won" a job, only to send the kid down and do what we do every year.

If the Wings weren't prepared to live by what they said, they should have kept their mouths shut and just sent the kid down.

I think they wanted to give the kid a vote of confidence before sending him down. Adversity builds character and overcoming adversity builds confidence. I have no problem with making it hard to crack the line up.

 

[Darth Vitale]

haha sounds like you got yourself a "Full Cleary" right there!

Good news is we scratched Cleary on opening day. We are at least starting to phase him out.

Yah, not a bad comparison at this stage (Cleary having found a way to reach Adams-like numbers last year). Although Cleary scored 9G in the shortened season. Craig Adams hasn't scored 9G in the last two seasons combined. And under another coach he probably would not have combined for 5G because he likely would've averaged 5 minutes a game at most, based on his performance.

If nothing else his ice time is being limited a bit so far this year; I think he sees the writing on the wall though, recently contridicting all the good vibes coming from the players and coaches when it comes to how his potential replacements are playing / protecting their teammates (Downie and Sill). Hopefully his days are numbered. If you're making waves and going against your new coach (that everyone else seems to be happy with) in the first week of the season... GTF out, that's all I have to say. Go find your Bylsma and be the monkey you want to be. Playing hockey is not required at this stage.

 

[Crymson]

I don't see where it harmed Gus' development any. He seemed to play with confidence right out of the gate and I think that was by design. It is just my opinion. I don't have all the data that the team has. I just have their track record to go by which is pretty good.

Nyquist looked super confident in the playoffs the season before. It's not as if his 25 games in the AHL to start last season caused a dramatic metamorphosis in his abilities. What it did do was almost certainly lose the Wings valuable points in the standings.

Rest assured that his initial stint in the minors was not by design, but rather by blatant mismanagement.

Could it be that Babs endorsed the kid on his way down for just that reason? "Coach loves you kid but there isn't a spot yet". Much better than "you are not good enough, go play with kids". Now the kid goes down thinking he is an NHL guy playing with kids instead of feeling like he failed. Most likely he will play in the AHL with confidence and tear it up. He will likely get a few call ups and the coach will likely endorse him on his way back down.

Babcock wanted him. Holland sent him down due to an unwillingness to expose Kindl or Lashoff to waivers. You're trying to read between the lines of a situation that was extremely clear-cut.

 

[PullHard]

Penguins under Bylsma were similar, as has been mentioned.

Coyotes are eerily similar, bringing back retreads and continually signing AHL calibre players so that they can bury guys like Samuelsson and Domi.

Rob Klinkhammer, David Moss, Tim Kennedy, etc. are all example of guys on that team in the recent past who often get top 9 roles with that team, yet they have little to no business being on an NHL 4th line.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Nyquist looked super confident in the playoffs the season before. It's not as if his 25 games in the AHL to start last season caused a dramatic metamorphosis in his abilities. What it did do was almost certainly lose the Wings valuable points in the standings.

Rest assured that his initial stint in the minors was not by design, but rather by blatant mismanagement.



Babcock wanted him. Holland sent him down due to an unwillingness to expose Kindl or Lashoff to waivers. You're trying to read between the lines of a situation that was extremely clear-cut.

There is no way to know that. Either way given their health at the end of the year it wouldn't have mattered who they drew in the 1st rd.

I don't get why people are still trying to tear Holland down. He has turned over half the roster in the last 2 years and now the team looks crisp and quick. Cleary hasn't played contrary to so many predicting he would. Nesty made the team and has looked better than Jurco IMO. We still have Pav to add to the mix. This team looks far better than they did last year. Without a doubt they are on the right track.

 

[Winger98]

I think they wanted to give the kid a vote of confidence before sending him down. Adversity builds character and overcoming adversity builds confidence. I have no problem with making it hard to crack the line up.

You think being told to ride the bus a bit longer because you have waiver exemptions is a vote of confidence? You know what builds confidence? Giving him the spot the coach thought he earned.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You think being told to ride the bus a bit longer because you have waiver exemptions is a vote of confidence? You know what builds confidence? Giving him the spot the coach thought he earned.

I think what he is getting at is the coach can say something nice while you're being sent. Just like when Babcock is the one that delivers the rocky you cannot play yet, Holland says the kid has a bright future, we believe he is a part of the future. They both do it, though in this particular case both guys have made it clear this wasn't really public posturing in interviews.

But you do see this tactic at play. When Sheahan was demoted the first time it was accompanied with Babcock saying he wasn't ready to play at this level. Holland immediately said Riley is a part of the future. I think it is good cop bad cop more often than not at play here.

It might not be cost effective, but I would love to see the Wings get the Griffins a plane and cover costs for a significant chunk. Be a first class organization all around, when they retired Red Bird I, I think they should have looked at this. You can build a lot of loyalty like that, I thought them using it for them in the Calder run was very nice.

The Wings could afford to do that and likely with the TV network coming online a little assistance from the big club could see this happen. I really do hope this is something they look at in the future with the megabucks both the Wings franchise and the founders of Amway that own the Griffins have.

 

[Crymson]

There is no way to know that.

There's no way to know for sure if the sun won't explode in our lifetime, but we've got very strong probabilities to go by. Starting our leading-scorer-to-be from game 1 instead of game 26 would almost certainly have been a solely good thing.

Either way given their health at the end of the year it wouldn't have mattered who they drew in the 1st rd.

Disagree. The Penguins weren't that good.

 

[Actual Thought*]

There's no way to know for sure if the sun won't explode in our lifetime, but we've got very strong probabilities to go by. Starting our leading-scorer-to-be from game 1 instead of game 26 would almost certainly have been a solely good thing.



Disagree. The Penguins weren't that good.

Actually there is. It's called science. Predicting what would have happened in hockey games is quite different than science. It is more like random speculation.

 

[ricky0034]

Actually there is. It's called science. Predicting what would have happened in hockey games is quite different than science. It is more like random speculation.

fine then

there's no way to know for sure that Cleary wouldn't have singlehandedly lead us past Boston if he had been playing in the Playoffs

saying there's no way of knowing if Nyquist playing 20+ more games would have gotten us an extra point in the standings is a flat out ridiculous position

 

[BinCookin]

Yah, not a bad comparison at this stage (Cleary having found a way to reach Adams-like numbers last year). Although Cleary scored 9G in the shortened season. Craig Adams hasn't scored 9G in the last two seasons combined. And under another coach he probably would not have combined for 5G because he likely would've averaged 5 minutes a game at most, based on his performance.

If nothing else his ice time is being limited a bit so far this year; I think he sees the writing on the wall though, recently contridicting all the good vibes coming from the players and coaches when it comes to how his potential replacements are playing / protecting their teammates (Downie and Sill). Hopefully his days are numbered. If you're making waves and going against your new coach (that everyone else seems to be happy with) in the first week of the season... GTF out, that's all I have to say. Go find your Bylsma and be the monkey you want to be. Playing hockey is not required at this stage.

Sorry to hear. I suppose the big difference is you have a 4th line aging plug that always got 10-15 points a year. looks like we finally realized cleary cant play in our top nine

 

[Crymson]

Sorry to hear. I suppose the big difference is you have a 4th line aging plug that always got 10-15 points a year. looks like we finally realized cleary cant play in our top nine

Cleary can't play in our top 12; he's utterly useless. He shouldn't even be on the NHL roster, but I'm 99% sure he'll remain when Datsyuk returns. That's how ass-backwards this organization is, after all.

 

[Henkka]

Cleary can't play in our top 12; he's utterly useless. He shouldn't even be on the NHL roster, but I'm 99% sure he'll remain when Datsyuk returns. That's how ass-backwards this organization is, after all.

What's wrong if Cleary still sits on the pressbox? Should we promote a kid to sit there and not let that kid play?

I just won't understand this logic.

Useless veteran sitting = best possible scenario.

It more and more looks like that Cleary is just a spare part for short-term injuries and could get some games if we are on a road trip, bunch of injuries will happen at same time and we are unavailable to call somebody from the Griffins roster.

 

[Heaton]

What's wrong if Cleary still sits on the pressbox? Should we promote a kid to sit there and not let that kid play?

I just won't understand this logic.

Useless veteran sitting = best possible scenario.

It more and more looks like that Cleary is just a spare part for short-term injuries and could get some games if we are on a road trip, bunch of injuries will happen at same time and we are unavailable to call somebody from the Griffins roster.

Because the idea of a 13th forward is to be able to play when called upon. What's the point of having Cleary on the team if we can't even put him in a game?

 

[Actual Thought*]

fine then

there's no way to know for sure that Cleary wouldn't have singlehandedly lead us past Boston if he had been playing in the Playoffs

saying there's no way of knowing if Nyquist playing 20+ more games would have gotten us an extra point in the standings is a flat out ridiculous position

Taking the position that Holland doesn't know what he is doing is a far more rediculous position. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Taking the position that Holland doesn't know what he is doing is a far more rediculous position. The evidence is overwhelming.

So are we not permitted to question the actions of our GM because of an appeal to authority? Is that the position you are taking?

 

[Dotter]

fine then

there's no way to know for sure that Cleary wouldn't have singlehandedly lead us past Boston if he had been playing in the Playoffs

saying there's no way of knowing if Nyquist playing 20+ more games would have gotten us an extra point in the standings is a flat out ridiculous position

Also, no one knew Nyquist was going to explode into a Demi-God goal scorer who out-produced the likes of Ovechkin, Stamkos, Perry in that short span of games. Nobody. Nyquist's prior NHL tally was 22 games, 3 goals, 3 assists with a whopping 6 points.

It was more likely Datsyuk and Zetterberg both would've had a full 80 healthy games than it was for Gus coming out of nowhere and out-scoring Ovechkin for a portion of the season.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing, though, isn't it...

 

[DanZ]

Taking the position that Holland doesn't know what he is doing is a far more rediculous position. The evidence is overwhelming.

What evidence? We've been nothing more than a bubble team for several years now. How is that evidence that he knows what he's doing? Taking the position that Holland may not be doing as good of a job at managing the young talent as he could be doing is not a ridiculous position at all, and it's clearly started to irritate Babcock with the whole XO situation. I find it hard to believe that a guy who scored at a 40+ goal pace last season wouldn't have benefited the Wings in the standings had be played since day one.

 

[DanZ]

Also, no one knew Nyquist was going to explode into a Demi-God goal scorer who out-produced the likes of Ovechkin, Stamkos, Perry in that short span of games. Nobody. Nyquist's prior NHL tally was 22 games, 3 goals, 3 assists with a whopping 6 points.

It was more likely Datsyuk and Zetterberg both would've had a full 80 healthy games than it was for Gus coming out of nowhere and out-scoring Ovechkin for a portion of the season.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing, though, isn't it...

Maybe people didn't know that Nyquist would explode like he did, but everybody and their mother knew he was better than at least 3-4 forwards who started the year with the team last season (Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi for starters...)

 

[ricky0034]

Maybe people didn't know that Nyquist would explode like he did, but everybody and their mother knew he was better than at least 3-4 forwards who started the year with the team last season (Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi for starters...)

plus he put up 5 points in 14 games in the Playoffs on the third line and looked good doing it

he was clearly getting better

 

[Dotter]

Maybe people didn't know that Nyquist would explode like he did, but everybody and their mother knew he was better than at least 3-4 forwards who started the year with the team last season (Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi for starters...)

Again, didn't the Wings start off good last year and were top3 or top2 in the east before injuries started piling up? If we are going to play the *if* game, then we can say *if* Datsyuk and Zetterberg stayed healthy for the entire year, Wings are a top team in the east and don't face Boston.

Clearly Nyquist was better, but KH knows regular season is a marathon, not a sprint. That is where having too much depth is never a bad thing. KH was preparing for some injuries in the regular season, that's the way it goes.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about, Wings called up Nyquist, he exploded and scored at an unsustainable rate against all odds, due to an unforeseeable bad string of injuries) to help the team make the playoffs for the 23rd consecutive time.

Wings face Boston and got ejected in the first round. Datsyuk wasn't 100%, Zetterberg was out and Nyquist and Tatar went MIA.

If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. Boston, was clearly better than Detroit. The silver lining is Babcock played some kids and they got some experience to real competitive NHL playoff hockey.

It's easy being an armchair GM when hindsight is 20/20 and face no consequences. Or have to appease a billionaire owner who wants to not only focus on the current playoff streak, but the long-term future of the franchise. That said, I think last year was an accomplishment to the owner; he got to see his 23 consecutive playoff streak stay alive and see's the future of the team is looking bright.

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

plus he put up 5 points in 14 games in the Playoffs on the third line and looked good doing it

he was clearly getting better

Then followed up his next playoff with 0 points in 5 games. Nobody in the world knew he was going to out-produce Ovechkin for a stretch of the season. Nobody.