Is Connor McDavid the best player ever?

[StoveTopStauffer]

He's the most advanced player to play the game, so yes.

Way more things have changed in hockey than just nutrition and equipment. There's no such thing as an era adjustment, that's some made up baloney trash...

There is a MASSIVE gap in the quality of the average NHLer between eras, as well as systems etc. May as well be a different sport.

 

[Macheteops]

Anyone that thinks McDavid is overrated just watch a replay of tonight's game against the Predators. Guy had 4 points but it could have easily been 7. He was everywhere doing everything. I've never see another player tilt the ice like that every single shift. If you aren't watching McDavid you are missing out on some incredible hockey.

Nut Ta

I know this is about McDavid but somehow Draisaitl just always seems to hang in there just a step behind. Now he's at 21 points after 10 games with 16 freaking assists. It's like McD and LD reversed their roles, McDavid started gunning for the Rocket while Draisaitl tries to fit his shoes into Gretzky's footsteps (referring to Gretzky's 2 assists-a-game campaign). And everyone remembers last post season as well -- McDavid scored like a mad man while Draisaitl managed to get within one point with one leg and broke some actual records in the process.

As exciting as it is having these two in the same team it'd be so intriguing to see each of them have their own teams to see how they fare separately.

Draisaitl is so unique. He can be right there with McDavid or the worst player on the ice when he decides to not skate and just no look backhand passes across the width of the ice to the opposing team. He can be very frustrating to watch at times but typically he is a dominate player but it's funny some games he's utter dogshit and at the end of the night he has 1G 2A.

Both him and McDavid could of easily had a few more points vs Nashville last night. Drai was on point with his passing

 

[Coastal Kev]

So, I’ve always felt that the GOAT convo is Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, and Hasek. If you said one of them was the GOAT, I wasn’t gonna argue with you. Gun to my head, I’d have Mario Lemieux as the best, but there’s fair case for all of them. I’m also clearly, fwiw, a bit of a contrarian, and so I think the best player outside of those five is Eric Lindros. Maybe Patrick Roy.

But I got to thinking. My belief is normally that you have to consider it era relative, but I think the conditions of the 1980s are impossible to replicate. I don’t think it’s possible to dominate statistically the way Gretzky did in today’s game.

Connor McDavid is at very least the fastest player ever, and his hands and his head keep up with his feet. My question here, just wanting to see different takes, is it possible he’s as good as a hockey player can be? To me, if he isn’t, it’s almost impossible to be better than Gretzky and Lemieux. And like, I’m a Leafs guy, I’m still half Mad Online we didn’t win that lottery, and I wish I could be making this thread about Auston. But I’m genuinely curious about how people feel here.

Don't compare Goalies with real players..

 

[Neutrinos]

Not the best, it's hard to make that case. He would need at least a few cups to even be in the conversation.

But on the other hand he's likely the most talented player to ever lace them up. So if by best you mean most talented, yes he is. But he's not the GOAT.

How exactly does the outcome of a hockey game determine the talent/skill/impact of an individual player?

It's like saying, Jimi Hendrix isn't the best guitar player in the world until he sells 5 million albums

One has nothing to do with the other

By your logic, McDavid could score 5 points per game during the Finals, but if his team loses, he's not as good of a player than if he'd averaged 2 points per game, but his team won

 

[Danarqhy]

How exactly does the outcome of a hockey game determine the talent/skill/impact of an individual player?

It's like saying, Jimi Hendrix isn't the best guitar player in the world until he sells 5 million albums

One has nothing to do with the other

By your logic, McDavid could score 5 points per game during the Finals, but if his team loses, he's not as good of a player than if he'd averaged 2 points per game, but his team won

It's pretty simple, to be the GOAT you have to be a CHAMPION (and likely multiple times). There is no sport where that is not the case. No one wants to pick a loser as the absolute best to ever compete in any given sport.

That's also the case with pretty much all the top athletes in all major sports that I can think of. Pele, Maradona, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tom Brady/Peyton Manning, etc etc... Not sure why you're so offended, this take is pretty much unanimously accepted by fans across all sports.

 

[Neutrinos]

It's pretty simple, to be the GOAT you have to be a CHAMPION (and likely multiple times). There is no sport where that is not the case. No one wants to pick a loser as the absolute best to ever compete in any given sport.

That's also the case with pretty much all the top athletes in all major sports that I can think of. Pele, Maradona, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tom Brady/Peyton Manning, etc etc... Not sure why you're so offended, this take is pretty much unanimously accepted by fans across all sports.

We're not talking about the GOAT, we're talking about the best player ever

 

[x Tame Impala]

What is also inevitable is that he can win multiple Cups and win multiple legitimate Conn Smythes and the same vocal crowd will snivel in the corner no matter what. If someone like Gretzky can do what he did and still be met with doubt, there’s little hope satisfying these unhappy individuals.

False. McDavid's playoff campaign last year erased that notion from a lot of people's minds. Even if you want to go with the argument that LA and CGY weren't great teams, he still had 8 or 9 points against the Avs who are one of the best post lockout teams we've seen and they did everything they could to stop him.

The league is lucky Edmonton is ran by a bunch of clowns because there wouldn't be any Cups to win if they had a competent organization.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Ask me in another 10 years.

 

[SnipeShowJB11]

Since Jay Woofcroft became the head coach, including the playoffs:

63 games 42+75= 117 +42

82 game pace 55+97=152 +55

"can't play any D"

 

[nowhereman]

He's the most advanced player to play the game, so yes.

Way more things have changed in hockey than just nutrition and equipment. There's no such thing as an era adjustment, that's some made up baloney trash...

There is a MASSIVE gap in the quality of the average NHLer between eras, as well as systems etc. May as well be a different sport.

Except, no, he isn't.

There isn't much separating McDavid from prime Crosby and OV and there wasn't much separating them from Jagr. And, yet, there was a very noticeable, significant gap between Jagr and the very obviously superior Lemieux. Even then, Gretzky's career crossed over with Lemieux's and we saw that Wayne was the better player.

We're not talking about comparing McDavid to Morenz or Nighbor. In the modern era, the greats have all seen their careers overlap. We can use this to examine talents across eras. Obviously the changes in era mean these players are closer than the raw numbers might suggest but I don't think you realize just how much better than everyone else Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr really were. If McDavid was on their level, he wouldn't need the last week of the regular season to beat out Jonathan Huberdeau in the scoring race nor would he lose out on hardware to guys like Kucherov or his inferior teammate Draisaitl. Like those aforementioned GOATs, he'd be lapping the field by massive margins.

 

[JJ68]

It's pretty simple, to be the GOAT you have to be a CHAMPION (and likely multiple times). There is no sport where that is not the case. No one wants to pick a loser as the absolute best to ever compete in any given sport.

That's also the case with pretty much all the top athletes in all major sports that I can think of. Pele, Maradona, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tom Brady/Peyton Manning, etc etc... Not sure why you're so offended, this take is pretty much unanimously accepted by fans across all sports.

well then Tikkanen is better than Hawerchuk. Maroon is better than Dionne.

Your logic is not logic at all.

And no McDavid isn't the greatest ever. He doesn't dominate this league as others have been able to. Mario and Wayne for 2.

 

[paragon]

McDavid is by far the best player to ever play the game. Not the best compared to his peers, but that's only because the level of the NHL is so much higher than it was in the beer league era.

 

[Video Nasty]

False. McDavid's playoff campaign last year erased that notion from a lot of people's minds. Even if you want to go with the argument that LA and CGY weren't great teams, he still had 8 or 9 points against the Avs who are one of the best post lockout teams we've seen and they did everything they could to stop him.

The league is lucky Edmonton is ran by a bunch of clowns because there wouldn't be any Cups to win if they had a competent organization.

I must be shadow boxing a lot of phantoms around here. It’s possible of course.

 

[authentic]

Since Jay Woofcroft became the head coach, including the playoffs:

63 games 42+75= 117 +42

82 game pace 55+97=152 +55

"can't play any D"

That’s the same pace he had in the COVID shortened season. Pretty amazing especially since it includes playoffs.

 

[Danarqhy]

well then Tikkanen is better than Hawerchuk. Maroon is better than Dionne.

Your logic is not logic at all.

And no McDavid isn't the greatest ever. He doesn't dominate this league as others have been able to. Mario and Wayne for 2.

I never said that cups are the only measurement of greatness? Cups are absolutely taken into consideration when deciding who the best ever player is, but obviously not the only criteria.

 

[Soundwave]

I don't think if you actually played them head to head, lets say

85 Oilers Vs. 22 Oilers Vs. 92 Penguins ...

First off ... McDavid would score a shit-ton of points against those teams, more than he did in the playoffs last year. Both those teams would not be able to stop him from scoring. He'd score more points than he did in that Calgary series. The goaltending and defence of that era would just get eaten alive by him and there's no real defensive forwards who could do anything to slow him and certainly not any kind of a defensive minded coach/strategist, he would get chances all night long.

Now Wayne and Mario would get their points too, but I think McDavid would be right there with them.

Of course, you can say that's not fair because the game has evolved, but that's kind of what's supposed to happen anyway.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I don't think if you actually played them head to head, lets say

85 Oilers Vs. 22 Oilers Vs. 92 Penguins ...

First off ... McDavid would score a shit-ton of points against those teams, more than he did in the playoffs last year. Both those teams would not be able to stop him from scoring. He'd score more points than he did in that Calgary series.

Now Wayne and Mario would get their points too, but I think McDavid would be right there with them.

Of course, you can say that's not fair because the game has evolved, but that's kind of what's supposed to happen anyway.

Both teams easily sweep the Oilers 22

 

[Breakers]

no

 

[Sentinel]

The goaltending was terrible last night though. This was one of those games that need to be brought up to people who say that 80s and 90s goalies were "sieves."

 

[jaywills1020]

We're not talking about the GOAT, we're talking about the best player ever

The GOAT and the best player ever is the same thing.

 

[Soundwave]

Both teams easily sweep the Oilers 22

Maybe, maybe not.

Honestly goaltending and defence has changed so much from those eras it's almost a completely different sport today. No coach back then even understood anything that would resemble modern defensive structure. It was just basically pond hockey. In a situation like that, a player like McDavid with Draisaitl would put up like 4, 5 points a night regularly enough that it would become no big deal (kind of the equivalent of McDavid having a 3 point game these days).

 

[jaywills1020]

I don't think if you actually played them head to head, lets say

85 Oilers Vs. 22 Oilers Vs. 92 Penguins ...

First off ... McDavid would score a shit-ton of points against those teams, more than he did in the playoffs last year. Both those teams would not be able to stop him from scoring. He'd score more points than he did in that Calgary series. The goaltending and defence of that era would just get eaten alive by him and there's no real defensive forwards who could do anything to slow him and certainly not any kind of a defensive minded coach/strategist, he would get chances all night long.

Now Wayne and Mario would get their points too, but I think McDavid would be right there with them.

Of course, you can say that's not fair because the game has evolved, but that's kind of what's supposed to happen anyway.

Not sure I agree. Mcdavid hasn’t had to deal with 3 players hanging all over him like the guys did back then. The hooking would slow him down, the holding would slow him down etc. none of those things were really called back then.

 

[Darren McCord]

I don't think if you actually played them head to head, lets say

85 Oilers Vs. 22 Oilers Vs. 92 Penguins ...

First off ... McDavid would score a shit-ton of points against those teams, more than he did in the playoffs last year. Both those teams would not be able to stop him from scoring. He'd score more points than he did in that Calgary series. The goaltending and defence of that era would just get eaten alive by him and there's no real defensive forwards who could do anything to slow him and certainly not any kind of a defensive minded coach/strategist, he would get chances all night long.

Now Wayne and Mario would get their points too, but I think McDavid would be right there with them.

Of course, you can say that's not fair because the game has evolved, but that's kind of what's supposed to happen anyway.

Kevin Stevens would have broken McDavid. So nah. The game was much more physical then. I don’t think a player like McDavid would have thrived like people think

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

Except, no, he isn't.

There isn't much separating McDavid from prime Crosby and OV and there wasn't much separating them from Jagr. And, yet, there was a very noticeable, significant gap between Jagr and the very obviously superior Lemieux. Even then, Gretzky's career crossed over with Lemieux's and we saw that Wayne was the better player.

We're not talking about comparing McDavid to Morenz or Nighbor. In the modern era, the greats have all seen their careers overlap. We can use this to examine talents across eras. Obviously the changes in era mean these players are closer than the raw numbers might suggest but I don't think you realize just how much better than everyone else Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr really were. If McDavid was on their level, he wouldn't need the last week of the regular season to beat out Jonathan Huberdeau in the scoring race nor would he lose out on hardware to guys like Kucherov or his inferior teammate Draisaitl. Like those aforementioned GOATs, he'd be lapping the field by massive margins.

The average NHLer is better now than they were in the 80s, 90s or even 2000's.

Better than the next guy is a pointless statement because the gap between players is smaller than ever. The margin for improvement is smaller than ever.

Era comparing is a pointless endeavor because the amount of moving pieces is too high to gauge anything with any amount of accuracy.

Not sure I agree. Mcdavid hasn’t had to deal with 3 players hanging all over him like the guys did back then. The hooking would slow him down, the holding would slow him down etc. none of those things were really called back then.

That is such an overblown thing, quit making stuff up.

 

[Soundwave]

Kevin Stevens would have broken McDavid. So nah. The game was much more physical then. I don’t think a player like McDavid would have thrived like people think

McDavid is bigger and stronger than Gretzky, he'd be fine.

When I watch 80s/90s clips the game is sooooooo much slower than the pace McDavid plays at. He would just make some of those teams look like children.

From a practical POV I don't see how McDavid wouldn't simply get like 2-3 breakaways a game on many nights, the D of that era simply just cannot move with him.