I'm going to defend Holmgren for a second.

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Would LA have accepted the deal if Holmgren swapped out BSchenn for Voynov?

I really would of loved to get Voynov. But I get that they werent going to get Schenn and Voynov.

 

[1865]

These players are good on paper, I think it is a chemistry problem. While you cannot blame Homer for not predicting how players will play together once acquired perfectly, it is a risk when you as active as changing the roster as the Flyers have been.

With Homer you get good moves and bonehead moves. Here are some.

Good:

- Acquiring rights to Timonen and Hartnell
- Coburn for Zhitnik
- Leino for Tollefsen and 5th
- Voracek, 1rst and 3rd for Carter
- Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and 2nd
- Mason for 3rd + MFL

Bonehead:

- Eminger and 3rd for a 1rst
- Carcillo for Upshall and 2nd
- Giving away a 2nd to get rid of Gauthier's contract (cap issue)
- Signing Bryz
- Trading Bob
- JVR for L. Schenn (looking that way)

Of the bonehead moves, only Eminger and Bob were relatively major and solely down to him. Hell, in the Bob deal didn't we get the pick that turned into Stolarz? That might end up paying real dividends.

The rest are very minor or forced moves. Bryz was the only goalie on the market and we needed a goalie. Simple as that, when your boss tells you to sign a goalie, you get one.

 

[1865]

Holmgren has made some good trades and some bad ones. All GMs do that. The problems I have with Holmgren, and why I feel he needs to be replaced are....

a) He built a team that was not well suited to play the style of hockey Laviolette was playing. So either he needed to acquire different types of players or hire a coach that was willing to coach a system that best fit his players. One or the other. The fact that Holmgren didn't feel he needed a match in system and personnel is rather alarming.

b) He continually overpays for players. An example is giving Bryz that insane contract when there was no real competition for his services. Also signing Timonen to a high-priced deal when his best years are clearly gone and the deal he gave Streit.

Not sure that one is fair. Bryz was overpaid, Streit looks so but that's about it. People criticised the Timonen, Briere, Hartnell deals but they worked out pretty well in the end. That's the thing about Holmgren, he frequently makes deals that look stupid to begin with but end up looking just fine.

c) Mishandling the Shea Weber situation. He had a legitimate chance to land a cornerstone defenseman but instead of signing him to a sheet then offering Nashville a viable trade package (Schenn, Coburn, Couturier) he tries to steal him for nothing but picks. Then he was surprised when "Nashville matched" because the information he had said they couldn't match. 90% of hockey fans (and all respected media) knew the Preds were going to match and not let Shea go for picks alone.

Who's to say they'd have accepted that? Who's to say we didn't do exactly that? You're criticising Holmgren here for not getting bent over a barrel for a RFA.

d) Overvaluing his players. Willing GMs do not expect rookies and 2nd year (or young) players to take on leadership/impact roles with their teams. Doing this only sets up players for failure and damages their progress in the process. Holmgren is horrific at identifying when players are ready for certain roles.

Such as when he gave Giroux the central role in the 92 point season?

e) Mishandling and total disregard for the value of draft picks. Giving up a 1st for Eminger and slop was inexcusable. Giving up 1st rounders to negotiate with UFAs is not much better. Giving up a 2nd for Biron when he could have signed him for nothing a few much later was a complete waste. Drafting Peter Luukko's son, regardless of round, was a joke.

Only the Eminger deal is worth *****ing about there. The rest is insignificant. Hell, for 'using the 1st rounders' argument it got us Timonen and Hartnell for a late first rounder. Solid, solid deal.

 

[Boxscore]

Hell, for 'using the 1st rounders' argument it got us Timonen and Hartnell for a late first rounder. Solid, solid deal.

Nope. It was awful. We could have signed both players AND KEPT the 1st round pick. Christ, we overpaid for both of them. No teams were going to outspend the Flyers for them because no teams were as desperate.... just like with Bryzgalov.

Sure, the Flyers could GUARANTEE the right to negotiate with the best UFA each offseason if they are willing to give up 1st round picks to do so but it would be completely foolish to do so.

Holmgren has mismanaged assets since day one. And I even think some of his trades have been pretty darn good. But he has some massive flaws and I no longer have faith he could be a championship winning GM. That's my opinion, you can defend him all you like.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Of the bonehead moves, only Eminger and Bob were relatively major and solely down to him. Hell, in the Bob deal didn't we get the pick that turned into Stolarz? That might end up paying real dividends.

The rest are very minor or forced moves. Bryz was the only goalie on the market and we needed a goalie. Simple as that, when your boss tells you to sign a goalie, you get one.

You forget the Leighton signing, which ended up being a disaster which directly led to a few other disasters. It led to:

1) Bryz overreaction
2) Contributed to team demolition to partly accommodate Bryz's cap hit
3) Bob trade
4) Homer getting mismatched players for Lavi once Bryz collapsed
5) Lavi trying to coach outside his zone, leading to confusion and frustration, leading to:
6) The struggling team now.


All of it goes back to the insanely idiotic decision to sign Leighton not for one year, but TWO, to be the goalie for the team...before FA...when other superior options were there. The 2010 offseason is when Homer truly took the team out of contention, it was a royal debacle. A more stable goaltending choice allows for Bob to be properly developed, which helps avoid the goalie meltdown in the POs, which avoids Snider's meltdown, which avoids Bryz and the **** that came with it because we'd have had Bob as a savior to bring in instead of an unfairly scapegoated goat.

 

[Curufinwe]

If we overpaid for both of them, please show me some free agents with lower salaries who produced more than Kimmo or Hartnell did on their first contracts with the Flyers.

Hartnell - $4.2m a year for six years: 274 points in 439 games (0.62 PPG)

Timonen - $6.3m a year for six years: 235 points in 442 games (0.53 PPG)

You're out of your mind if you don't think there wouldn't have been teams lining up to sign both these guys back in 2007 when Hartnell was 25 and Kimmo was 32.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

the Jody Shelley signing was a stupid move. not only did he sign him but he gave him THREE years.

 

[1865]

Nope. It was awful. We could have signed both players AND KEPT the 1st round pick. Christ, we overpaid for both of them. No teams were going to outspend the Flyers for them because no teams were as desperate.... just like with Bryzgalov.

Sure, the Flyers could GUARANTEE the right to negotiate with the best UFA each offseason if they are willing to give up 1st round picks to do so but it would be completely foolish to do so.

Holmgren has mismanaged assets since day one. And I even think some of his trades have been pretty darn good. But he has some massive flaws and I no longer have faith he could be a championship winning GM. That's my opinion, you can defend him all you like.

No, it wasn't awful. There's a very real chance we wouldn't have had either player if we'd waited until UFA. As it is, we got exclusivity for the sake of a low first rounder. The rest of what you write is just conjecture again, as most of the Holmgren critique is. As it is, we traded the first and those two players took us to the ECF. All worked out pretty well, and the pick only turned into Jonathan Blum.

Holmgren has taken a worst-overall team and taken them to the ECF and the SCF. Hell, we were two games from a championship. He certainly could be a cup winning GM, we just need to get a little older.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

No, it wasn't awful. There's a very real chance we wouldn't have had either player if we'd waited until UFA. As it is, we got exclusivity for the sake of a low first rounder. The rest of what you write is just conjecture again, as most of the Holmgren critique is. As it is, we traded the first and those two players took us to the ECF. All worked out pretty well, and the pick only turned into Jonathan Blum.

Holmgren has taken a worst-overall team and taken them to the ECF and the SCF. Hell, we were two games from a championship. He certainly could be a cup winning GM, we just need to get a little older.

and now where are we going since going to the Cup Final?
backwards.

 

[1865]

You forget the Leighton signing, which ended up being a disaster which directly led to a few other disasters. It led to:

1) Bryz overreaction
2) Contributed to team demolition to partly accommodate Bryz's cap hit
3) Bob trade
4) Homer getting mismatched players for Lavi once Bryz collapsed
5) Lavi trying to coach outside his zone, leading to confusion and frustration, leading to:
6) The struggling team now.

Bit harsh. The Bryz overreaction would have happened regardless of whether we'd signed Leighton or not. Go back to the Leighton FA period, who else was available? Everything else was a by-product of us failing to find a #1 goalie for ages, not specifically the Leighton signing.

All of it goes back to the insanely idiotic decision to sign Leighton not for one year, but TWO, to be the goalie for the team...before FA...when other superior options were there. The 2010 offseason is when Homer truly took the team out of contention, it was a royal debacle. A more stable goaltending choice allows for Bob to be properly developed, which helps avoid the goalie meltdown in the POs, which avoids Snider's meltdown, which avoids Bryz and the **** that came with it because we'd have had Bob as a savior to bring in instead of an unfairly scapegoated goat.

I'd just like to hear about these other superior options that would have performed so well that they wouldn't have necessitated the Bryz signing.

Bob showed nothing to suggest he'd become a Vezina winner here had he stayed. Furthermore, i'm not getting ludicrously carried away by Bob anyway, he only performed for two months to earn that Vezina. That's not an awful lot shorter a time period than Mason has been superb here.

 

[1865]

and now where are we going since going to the Cup Final?
backwards.

Not many teams can make their core younger and remain as competitive. We've managed to restock the cupboard in a year and whilst this current season is a disgrace by anyone's standards, we're not going to spend long in the basement.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

If we overpaid for both of them, please show me some free agents with lower salaries who produced more than Kimmo or Hartnell did on their first contracts with the Flyers.

Hartnell - $4.2m a year for six years: 274 points in 439 games (0.62 PPG)

Timonen - $6.3m a year for six years: 235 points in 442 games (0.53 PPG)

You're out of your mind if you don't think there wouldn't have been teams lining up to sign both these guys back in 2007 when Hartnell was 25 and Kimmo was 32.

Yup, out of all the things to complain about that's probably one of the dumbest ones.

I'm sure Homer was able to negotiate with both of them to gauge their interest level before the trade was made.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Not many teams can make their core younger and remain as competitive. We've managed to restock the cupboard in a year and whilst this current season is a disgrace by anyone's standards, we're not going to spend long in the basement.

Can you see Snider being patient with the losing? How long before he starts telling Holmgren and his "whatever it takes attitude" to trade some of those shiny new toys in the cupboard and trades them?

 

[Embiid]

I thought this defense was supposed to last a second like a hal Gill shift?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bit harsh. The Bryz overreaction would have happened regardless of whether we'd signed Leighton or not. Go back to the Leighton FA period, who else was available? Everything else was a by-product of us failing to find a #1 goalie for ages, not specifically the Leighton signing.

Turco and Roloson. off the top of my head. Either one would have been superior to Leighton; neither one was hiding an injury from the team. Roloson went on to have a very good playoffs in TB. Sign one of those guys an Bob gets an opportunity to grow into the American game in the AHL instead of being chucked straight into the fire as starting G.

What caused the kneejerk Bryz signing? The playoff meltdown. What caused the Playoff meltdown? Bob being worked to death in the NHL in an extreme situation. What put Bob in that situation? Signing MFL without making the tiniest attempt to explore better options in FA.

Hilariously, once he recovered they tried to bring him up and start him. I don't understand why nobody paid for their hockey knowledge couldn't watch the guy and realize he blew.

I'd just like to hear about these other superior options that would have performed so well that they wouldn't have necessitated the Bryz signing.

Well, Roloson. Anybody who would have given Bob time to adjust instead of being hurled into the fire would have been better. Then we don't have to sign Bryz because we have a fantastic G prospect to call up. And yes, it WAS obvious from the start that Bob was a fantastic prospect.

Bob showed nothing to suggest he'd become a Vezina winner here had he stayed.

He showed the raw talent to do it and coachability. He should have been our long-term solution, but his handling was monumentally botched.

Furthermore, i'm not getting ludicrously carried away by Bob anyway, he only performed for two months to earn that Vezina. That's not an awful lot shorter a time period than Mason has been superb here.

Mason has been here for what, 14 regular season games?

Bob was good here for two seasons and showed amazing potential. He's putting up .921 again. His good play is spanning the offseason, which is a good sign. You look like you're trying to downplay him just to keep Holmgren from looking as bad as he deserves for that entire mess. Everyone blames Snider for Bryz, but Homer created the circumstances that led to Snider making his decree.

Not many teams can make their core younger and remain as competitive. We've managed to restock the cupboard in a year and whilst this current season is a disgrace by anyone's standards, we're not going to spend long in the basement.

The cupboard had to be restocked because Homer traded all the worthwhile picks and prospects away, and put us in the inevitable (and predicted) position where there were too many gaps on the roster to fill, nobody to call up, and not enough cap space to sign them all.

 

[Jtown]

I will Help in this Defense of Holmgren.

1. Any and every GM looks bad in 20/20 Hindsight.
2. No fanbase is ever happy with their GM. Even Devil Fans want to ax Lamoriello.

That Being Said.

1.Homer Made 2 of the gutsiest moves in franchise history by trading Carter and Richards. Carter imo is still an elite player but Richards has really fallen off and if he ever gets seperated from Carter His point production will drop off big time. I really think these deals will benefit us in the long run.


2. Homer Signs his guys to great cap hits.

3. When he has picks he drafts well. We all questioned that Laughton pick but that pick is looking better and better. Finding Guys like Mcginn and Rinaldo late have been pretty sweet, as well as undrafted free agents like Matt Read.




I think one of the Problems he and most Gm's face is the ability to win now. Winning now strategy is a great way to ruin your franchise. You need to have the right pieces in place and have an overall organizational strategy to win now. If you look at the flyers this is my biggest complaint. The roster as it is assembled now is just a hodge podge of players.

In 2011 we rolled 3 lines that could score and had a 4th line that featured 2 double digit scorers. We were going to win games with our offense and made no bones about it.

Now we have those same players with a new coach and a diffrent style of play. To me that is one of the reasons why we are struggling to score. Plus we have added 2 old free agents to long term deals that really dont mesh well with our under 30 roster.

I feel if homer was not under pressure to win every year he would have a chance to actually assemble a roster that complimented each other

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Turco and Roloson. off the top of my head. Either one would have been superior to Leighton; neither one was hiding an injury from the team. Roloson went on to have a very good playoffs in TB. Sign one of those guys an Bob gets an opportunity to grow into the American game in the AHL instead of being chucked straight into the fire as starting G.

What caused the kneejerk Bryz signing? The playoff meltdown. What caused the Playoff meltdown? Bob being worked to death in the NHL in an extreme situation. What put Bob in that situation? Signing MFL without making the tiniest attempt to explore better options in FA.

Hilariously, once he recovered they tried to bring him up and start him. I don't understand why nobody paid for their hockey knowledge couldn't watch the guy and realize he blew.





Well, Roloson. Anybody who would have given Bob time to adjust instead of being hurled into the fire would have been better. Then we don't have to sign Bryz because we have a fantastic G prospect to call up. And yes, it WAS obvious from the start that Bob was a fantastic prospect.



He showed the raw talent to do it and coachability. He should have been our long-term solution, but his handling was monumentally botched.



Mason has been here for what, 14 regular season games?

Bob was good here for two seasons and showed amazing potential. He's putting up .921 again. His good play is spanning the offseason, which is a good sign. You look like you're trying to downplay him just to keep Holmgren from looking as bad as he deserves for that entire mess. Everyone blames Snider for Bryz, but Homer created the circumstances that led to Snider making his decree.



The cupboard had to be restocked because Homer traded all the worthwhile picks and prospects away, and put us in the inevitable (and predicted) position where there were too many gaps on the roster to fill, nobody to call up, and not enough cap space to sign them all.

Like I mentioned earlier. the Leighton signing led to a domino effect that the team just now has hopefully recovered from. The Leighton was one on the main reasons why Bryzgalov was brought here because they had a injured AHL goalie backing up a talented but raw goaltender in Bobrovsky. Bob played more then he should of and like you pointed out he was overworked which in the domino effect played into him not having much left for the playoffs.
I am not sure how anyone cant see the connection honestly. it was some poorly thought out decisions several years ago that led to the freakin fiasco that played out after that.
If the losing continues can we trust Holmgren to keep those shiny new toys in the cupboard? or will he trade some of em for a 38 year old rental.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I will Help in this Defense of Holmgren.

1. Any and every GM looks bad in 20/20 Hindsight.
2. No fanbase is ever happy with their GM. Even Devil Fans want to ax Lamoriello.

Most of my post didn't come from hindsight. It came from unpaid amateurs on the internet assessing the situation and using common sense, at the time. A lot of his moves are predicted to be bad or terrible, and they prove to be. The Leighton signing was so terrible it surpassed any reasonable expectations for disaster, costing us a Vezina prospect and setting the team back dramatically because of the Bryz disaster and everything that came with it. But nonetheless, it was recognized by many at the time as a horrible move that at minimum took the team out of contention.

That Being Said.

1.Homer Made 2 of the gutsiest moves in franchise history by trading Carter and Richards. Carter imo is still an elite player but Richards has really fallen off and if he ever gets seperated from Carter His point production will drop off big time. I really think these deals will benefit us in the long run.

No way they're better than the moves to get Lindros, Howe, Bernie, Leclair + Desjardins for Recchi then getting Recchi back.

Edit: Oh, and Homer has better moves on his own; trading Gimpy Forsberg to NSH and getting everything they reaped from that was great. The Carter trade is looking very good, the Richards trade is still pretty iffy. I'm not sure either one can stand up to those trades I mentioned just above. Recchi and a couple other pieces for LeClair and Desjardins and then getting Recchi back is just awesome.

Those moves had immediate positive impact. The Richards and Carter trades...not so much. They have had impact, but the jury is still out on hoe positive that impact is.

2. Homer Signs his guys to great cap hits.

Sometimes.

3. When he has picks he drafts well. We all questioned that Laughton pick but that pick is looking better and better. Finding Guys like Mcginn and Rinaldo late have been pretty sweet, as well as undrafted free agents like Matt Read.

Yeah, he's really good at the draft. At first I was baffled by the Morin pick, but it only took me a few minutes to remember that aside from the wasted goon picks, Homer has given little reason to doubt his picks/scouting instinct.

I think one of the Problems he and most Gm's face is the ability to win now. Winning now strategy is a great way to ruin your franchise. You need to have the right pieces in place and have an overall organizational strategy to win now. If you look at the flyers this is my biggest complaint. The roster as it is assembled now is just a hodge podge of players.

In 2011 we rolled 3 lines that could score and had a 4th line that featured 2 double digit scorers. We were going to win games with our offense and made no bones about it.

No argument there, but other GMs manage to be more patient. That or they don't have an old owner desperate for a Cup breathing fire down their neck. It's kinda hard to say which.

If Homer steps aside/is forced aside and Hextall steps up, I hope he does what Mike Shanahan did with Snyder; tell him he needs room to work if he gets the job, as a job condition.

[snip]

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Nope. It was awful. We could have signed both players AND KEPT the 1st round pick. Christ, we overpaid for both of them. No teams were going to outspend the Flyers for them because no teams were as desperate.... just like with Bryzgalov.

Sure, the Flyers could GUARANTEE the right to negotiate with the best UFA each offseason if they are willing to give up 1st round picks to do so but it would be completely foolish to do so.

Holmgren has mismanaged assets since day one. And I even think some of his trades have been pretty darn good. But he has some massive flaws and I no longer have faith he could be a championship winning GM. That's my opinion, you can defend him all you like.

Nashville picked Jonathon Blum at #23 with the pick the Flyers traded to them for the rights to Hartnell and Timonen. The Flyers picked Kevin Marshall at #41.

These are the players picked in between:

Mikael Backlund
Patrick White
David Perron
Brendan Smith
Nick Petrecki
Jim O'Brien
Nick Ross
T.J. Brennan
Brett MacLean
Taylor Ellington
Josh Godfrey
Tommy Cross
Joel Gistedt
Stefan Legein
Billy Sweatt
Simon Hjarmalsson
Michal Repik

You're telling me that the years the Flyers have had Hartnell and Timonen aren't worth any single one of the players listed above?

Had both guys hit the open market, I highly doubt the Flyers get both. Holmgren took a calculated chance and I believe it was one of his best moves.

 

[Jtown]

Beef,

I never said the carter and richards deal were the best deals in organization history i said they were the Gutsiest.

I can't fathom another GM who would have done those deals. And in looking back in history I can't really ever think of another Hockey team trading it's two most iconic players on the same day and completely reinventing their identity.



one thing I will say about homer is that he has this incredible ability to get himself out of a jam and turn a negative into a positive.

he turned a bad move in steve eminger and added steve downie to get carle.

Turned a botched Bob trade into Acquiring Mason , and if mason turns out to be our future starter than that will make up for losing bob imo.

A GM is in charge of the roster and on paper this roster has enough talent to make the playoffs and be competitive. At some point in time it has to be on the players.

 

[whatthef]

I will Help in this Defense of Holmgren.

1. Any and every GM looks bad in 20/20 Hindsight.
2. No fanbase is ever happy with their GM. Even Devil Fans want to ax Lamoriello.

That Being Said.

1.Homer Made 2 of the gutsiest moves in franchise history by trading Carter and Richards. Carter imo is still an elite player but Richards has really fallen off and if he ever gets seperated from Carter His point production will drop off big time. I really think these deals will benefit us in the long run.


2. Homer Signs his guys to great cap hits.

3. When he has picks he drafts well. We all questioned that Laughton pick but that pick is looking better and better. Finding Guys like Mcginn and Rinaldo late have been pretty sweet, as well as undrafted free agents like Matt Read.




I think one of the Problems he and most Gm's face is the ability to win now. Winning now strategy is a great way to ruin your franchise. You need to have the right pieces in place and have an overall organizational strategy to win now. If you look at the flyers this is my biggest complaint. The roster as it is assembled now is just a hodge podge of players.

In 2011 we rolled 3 lines that could score and had a 4th line that featured 2 double digit scorers. We were going to win games with our offense and made no bones about it.

Now we have those same players with a new coach and a diffrent style of play. To me that is one of the reasons why we are struggling to score. Plus we have added 2 old free agents to long term deals that really dont mesh well with our under 30 roster.

I feel if homer was not under pressure to win every year he would have a chance to actually assemble a roster that complimented each other

GMs get far to much credit/blame for drafting. That is more due to the scouting staff than anything else.

 

[fauxflex]

Not many teams can make their core younger and remain as competitive. We've managed to restock the cupboard in a year and whilst this current season is a disgrace by anyone's standards, we're not going to spend long in the basement.

Yeah, this is a point lost on many. While we may not have the most talented group of young players, the Flyers org has had a youth movement of sorts in the past couple of years, with Homer swapping Carter/Richie for the younger Schenn/Simmer/Voracek/Coots...and added some good looking prospects via the draft and other sources in Morin, Alt, Ghost, Lauridsen Hagg, Akeson, Straka, McGinn, Raffl, Cousins, Laughton, Stolarz etc, not to mention it's looking like we'll be adding a potentially high-impact lottery pick after this year. All of these players/prospects should be progressing and coming into their own over the next few years, with some probably making a real difference. This should open the team's window for contention wider in time. I think a lot of people overlook the upside potential in these players in their current assessment of Holmgren...Nonis is currently reaping the benefits of Burke's work in Toronto, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar scenario in Philly should Homer be removed from his GM duties in the near future...maybe they should exercise patience, and let him stay as the younger players/prospects come of age before concluding he's a failure and get rid of him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Beef,

I never said the carter and richards deal were the best deals in organization history i said they were the Gutsiest.

I can't fathom another GM who would have done those deals. And in looking back in history I can't really ever think of another Hockey team trading it's two most iconic players on the same day and completely reinventing their identity.


one thing I will say about homer is that he has this incredible ability to get himself out of a jam and turn a negative into a positive.

he turned a bad move in steve eminger and added steve downie to get carle.

Turned a botched Bob trade into Acquiring Mason , and if mason turns out to be our future starter than that will make up for losing bob imo.

A GM is in charge of the roster and on paper this roster has enough talent to make the playoffs and be competitive. At some point in time it has to be on the players.

You're right, I completely misread and wasted both our time.

Ideally though, I would prefer if the GM didn't get himself into avoidable jams. His ability to fix his mistakes is nice, but it's better to not make the mistakes to begin with.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Nashville picked Jonathon Blum at #23 with the pick the Flyers traded to them for the rights to Hartnell and Timonen. The Flyers picked Kevin Marshall at #41.

These are the players picked in between:

Mikael Backlund
Patrick White
David Perron
Brendan Smith
Nick Petrecki
Jim O'Brien
Nick Ross
T.J. Brennan
Brett MacLean
Taylor Ellington
Josh Godfrey
Tommy Cross
Joel Gistedt
Stefan Legein
Billy Sweatt
Simon Hjarmalsson
Michal Repik

You're telling me that the years the Flyers have had Hartnell and Timonen aren't worth any single one of the players listed above?

Had both guys hit the open market, I highly doubt the Flyers get both. Holmgren took a calculated chance and I believe it was one of his best moves.

Yeah but we could've had Subban!