If you could choose between Bylsma or Shero?

[Shady Machine]

I want DB gone, not Shero. I think DB has poisoned Shero's mind in a way, and if they had an elite coach, ala Robinson, Shero would shine. I truly believe that.

I'm 100% sure Shero isn't in any danger. I don't feel as good about him as I used to, but he can still become the GM I believe he can be. With DB, I have no faith left in him. He continually does and says stupid ****. The latest is saying he decided to play his "seven heaviest d- men" and admitting that he has different rules for different guys.

How can you make an excuse about not benching Neal, while benching JJ, when you ramble on about their ice time and stars have more shifts. They are on the same line for ****s sakes. It's like he just makes **** up and thinks nobody will apply logic to his answers.

There is a lot of noise out there right now, and we have people saying DB is in trouble, while others say it's total BS. Shero, the horses mouth, said DB was never in any danger last summer. LeBrun said he was close to being kicked to the curb. Personally, I think Shero is really attached to this guy and sees greatness in him. I'm positive he thinks if he just waits out these rough times, DB will reward him with more cups and show everyone why he was right to stick by him.

I believe all of that as well. The problem though is that we don't have time to wait for Bylsma to continue to evolve. This is the prime of our 2 stars careers. If they don't win another cup in the next 5 years, the window will slam shut. Shero has to get over his desire to develop Bylsma and find a developed coach. This team needs to win now.

 

[Shady Machine]

Fire Byisma or Fire Shero with no penalties attached to each choice, that would be a pretty lopsided poll.

I didn't even read the scenarios but what's the point of them? I mean, these are not realistic scenarios. Even if Shero re-signed all of those guys and hired the right coach, none of those guys, other than Orpik, would play every night.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Fire Byisma or Fire Shero with no penalties attached to each choice, that would be a pretty lopsided poll.

Yep, more than fair enough.

Any guy that can give this lineup deserves some recognition for putting together a Stanley Cup roster on paper:

Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla
Bennett/Morrow-Malkin-Neal
Morrow/Bennett-Jokinen-Dupuis
Cooke-Sutter-Vitale
Kennedy

Letang-Despres
Martin-Orpik
Niskanen-Murray/Bortuzzo
Engelland

Vokoun
Fleury

(regardless of the poor asset management used to acquire it or how incredibly stupid it was used by the guy he extends)

 

[cassius]

I'm not thrilled with some of his philosophies. Since 2006, when he passed up Kessel, I've been openly critical that he was making a mistake by not building around Malkin and Crosby. I was pretty adamant for quite awhile.

I remember for example, arguing with people who thought Army was a heart and soul guy, and I kept insisting a guy like Kessel should be on Crosby's wing, not Army, and how utterly ridiculous it all was, Even back then the counter argument was, "Shero will get Crosby his wingers, relax. Besides, Army is funny!"

I can't even fathom how it's still an issue now, but it is. I just kind of gave up complaining because after 8-9 years, you run out of ways to complain I guess. I just had hope Shero would build a sick blueline pipe and turn those assets into a deep team, which has two talented wingers flanking Crosby.

So I get why people are pissed, but blowing up the coach and GM, then starting over isn't something that an intelligent org should have to do.

Not trying to call you out, but I vividly remember you disagreeing with me and stating that Staal was the right pick over Toews/Kessel. Many many times.

 

[Michael8771*]

I believe all of that as well. The problem though is that we don't have time to wait for Bylsma to continue to evolve. This is the prime of our 2 stars careers. If they don't win another cup in the next 5 years, the window will slam shut. Shero has to get over his desire to develop Bylsma and find a developed coach. This team needs to win now.

Exactly! Our Stars should be in their primes for hopefully the next 3-5 years, we can't afford to waste any more time on a coach that displays the ineptitude he does game in and game out. It's a travesty and hopefully it comes to an abrupt end (very soon).

 

[Frederick Stanley]

I didn't even read the scenarios but what's the point of them? I mean, these are not realistic scenarios. Even if Shero re-signed all of those guys and hired the right coach, none of those guys, other than Orpik, would play every night.

I'm not sure on that. I believe Glass and Adams would still have spot on the team, they just wouldn't play 12 minutes a game or on the second line.

 

[Michael8771*]

i'm not sure on that. I believe glass and adams would still have spot on the team, they just wouldn't play 12 minutes a game or on the second line.

with a healthier line up and a different coach i wouldn't be at all surprised if adams was a healthy scratch quite a bit.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Shero brought in Iginla (good move). BYLSMA played him on the 2nd line LW (moronic decision).

Case closed. And BTW, i'm not Shero's biggest fan but this is a landslide for a reason.

 

[Penguins23]

Without reading your post I would have voted A but I went with B because of the fact that it would get rid of a lot of my anger.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

I'm not sure I follow, you still have faith in Shero even after "the past couple of BAD years"?

Let me list some of Ray's bad moves:

Signed Scuderi to FOUR years
Singed Kobasew
Traded for Brendan Morrow giving up a first round pick
Traded for Murray and gave up 2 Second round picks for 2 months of service
Signed Dupuis to FOUR years
Signed Adams to TWO years
Trades for Iginla for two players and first round pick, allows coach not to use him correctly and then doesn't attempt to resign.
Signed Dan Bylsma to TWO years
Loses Brian Strait for nothing
Trades Lovejoy for a 5th round pick
Signs Mark Eaton
Signs D'Agostini

This is a ridiculous post.

1. Rob Scuderi is a solid defenseman, everyone complained when Shero only signed FA's over 30 to 2 years or less, now everyone is *****ing he gave them 4 years. He's much better than Orpik, and signing him has all signs pointing to Orpik walking this summer.

2. Nothing wrong with signing a depth forward for league minimum

3 and 4. Deadline deals, value of players increase, salary cap was high, Shero took the opportunity to bolster his team, not one of you were complaining about the moves then, everyone was calling Shero "king of the trade deadline". Prices were high, but we got a 3rd out of that Morrow trade which gave us a good forward prospect in Jake Guentzel, and we got a 2nd round pick for Tyler Kennedy which was traded up for a top goalie prospect in Tristan Jarry. (LOOK! SHERO ADDRESSED ORGANIZATIONAL NEEDS ) That Morrow trade shouldn't be judged until we see what Guentzel can do.

5. Who cares about the Dupuis signing, it's a deal that keeps him here, he's a pretty solid role player, I think this team misses him tremendously this season. I don't think term is a problem for a guy who (besides getting injured on a freak hit) is showing no signs of slowing down.

6. Dude, Adams is a serviceable 4th liner on a cheap contract, he's not as bad as people think, I can see people wanting him gone because he's not some flashy, standout 4th line winger, but he's serviceable, he's not useless. This is coming from a guy who wouldn't mind Adams leaving, but doesn't mean signing him is a bad move.

7. The "two players" traded for Jarome Iginla were mid level college prospects, let's not act like we emptied the cupboard for him, the first round pick was the most valuable piece and what would you rather have? An impact winger like Iginla for the playoffs? Or a late 1st round pick that likely won't sniff the NHL for 3 to 5 years? Also, let's not criticize Bylsma or Shero on where Iginla played, I heard Captain Crosby didn't want to play with Iginla because he wasn't fast enough to keep up with him. Doesn't mean he should have been on Malkin's LW, if we could travel back in time I would have done Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis on the 1st line, Jokinen-Malkin-Neal on the 2nd line, Morrow-Sutter-Iginla on the 3rd line, Cooke-Vitale-Kennedy on the 4th line. That's just what I would have done differently though.

8. Coaching extensions mean nothing, he gave Therrien an extension after the 2008 Finals loss to Detroit, that lasted all of about 5 or 6 months (8 if you include the offseason)

9. Oh my I HOPE you're being sarcastic. WHO CARES ABOUT BRIAN F'ING STRAIT?! THE GUY HAS NO VALUE, HE'S NOT EVEN GOOD! I'm sure Shero tried trading him, but no GM wanted to trade assets for a guy who was destined for waivers. Same goes for Dustin Jeffrey.

10. Oh please, don't give me that "trading Lovejoy for a 5th is a bad move" do you remember Lovejoy when he was here? How mediocre he was? Dude I used to talk to my best friend all the time BEGGING Shero to trade him because Bylsma would not bench him (same thing he's doing with Engelland). I don't care how Lovejoy is on the Ducks, he's playing with a better D partner under a better coach than he had here, he wasn't good here. I would have traded him for a 7th.

11. Only bad move I agree with, but even then it's such a minor move, it's not even worth nitpicking over, he signed a veteran defenseman to a cheap contract to play in a 48 game lockout season, a season he wasn't even around for the full 48 games! It's such a minor issue and he wasn't brought back. Who cares?

12. Just like Kobasew, he signed a cheap depth forward for league minimum, 2 guys that have had success in the past, given the opportunity to maybe find some of that magic on an offensive powerhouse team, they didn't do it, they're gone now.

Let me list some of Ray's GOOD moves

Traded 4 scrubs (Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a late 1st) for Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis. Even though we couldn't keep Hossa, Dupuis alone is better and more valuable than all those pieces combined. Also acquired Hal Gill and Gary Roberts which helped this team to a Cup Final.

Traded Ryan Whitney for Chris Kunitz and Eric Tangradi/Also traded a 3rd for Bill Guerin, Two essential players in our 2009 Stanley Cup Championship season.

Signed FAs like Matt Cooke, Ruslan Fedotenko (helped us win Lord Stanley) Paul Martin, Zbynek Michalek, Rob Scuderi, Jeff Zatkoff all players who had success as Penguins.

Traded Alex Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen, re-signed Neal to a 6 year, $30M which is a STEAL for a 30-40 goal scoring winger who is only, what, 25 or 26?

Traded Jordan Staal, a guy who was leaving for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin and the 8th overall pick who is currently a top prospect.

For a GM drafting late, he's drafted some guys with praise and hype. Bortuzzo, Muzzin, Despres, Bennett, Harrington, Maatta, Murray, Marcantuoni, Zlobin, Archibald, Guentzel, Jarry, Byron. He also has signed some decent FA rookies in Hartzell, Sill and Dea.

Trading NO ASSETS for Jussi Jokinen and having Carolina retain $900,000 of his salary.

Traded Tyler Kennedy for a 2nd round pick (to the Sharks, for an earlier 2nd than the one we traded for Murray, so IMO that negates one of the 2nd's traded for Murray)

Most recently, acquiring Lee Stempniak for a 3rd round pick, and acquiring Marcel Goc for a 2015 3rd + 2014 5th.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

This is a ridiculous post.

5. Who cares about the Dupuis signing, it's a deal that keeps him here, he's a pretty solid role player, I think this team misses him tremendously this season. I don't think term is a problem for a guy who (besides getting injured on a freak hit) is showing no signs of slowing down.

He was playing terrible hockey before the injury happened. It sure looked like he was slowing down.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Sometimes I wonder what ****ing game people are actually watching.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Not trying to call you out, but I vividly remember you disagreeing with me and stating that Staal was the right pick over Toews/Kessel. Many many times.

No, you remember me disagreeing with a lot of the nonsense you said about Staal. I was talking up Kessel before that draft, loved what I saw in him, and he was the guy I wanted. Like always, I accept the guy chosen and pull for him to do well, because you can't change the pick.

Ironically, you liked the pick and said he would be a beast and a future Eric Staal. (Not to call you out or anything though)

Staal will be a good ace in the hole for us, he is still 2 years away from entering the league. This kid is going to be an immense physical force when he suits up for us. He might end up being 6'5 and 240 or so.

We could also deal him very easily- imagine the offers we could get for a future Eric Staal.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=262587&highlight=staal&page=2

 

[Vegeta]

I'm not sure I follow, you still have faith in Shero even after "the past couple of BAD years"?

Let me list some of Ray's bad moves:

Signed Scuderi to FOUR years
Singed Kobasew
Traded for Brendan Morrow giving up a first round pick
Traded for Murray and gave up 2 Second round picks for 2 months of service
Signed Dupuis to FOUR years
Signed Adams to TWO years
Trades for Iginla for two players and first round pick, allows coach not to use him correctly and then doesn't attempt to resign.
Signed Dan Bylsma to TWO years
Loses Brian Strait for nothing
Trades Lovejoy for a 5th round pick
Signs Mark Eaton
Signs D'Agostini

and don't forget the most important one:

Only 2 of his drafted forwards cracked the NHL: Staal and Bennett.

Shero's terrible drafting and obsession with rookie dmen has effectively killed this team's scoring depth.

@FlatStanley: Really, Adams isn't that bad? He's the worst player in the league according to CORSI.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I agree with all of the above except Dupuis. Duper is still a fine PKer and is still Sid's best option now on RW. Yes, he did overpay for Duper.

However, both must go. A new set of eyes, philosophy is needed. For this team to continue on its merry way to mediocracy is unacceptable. A full and complete spring cleaning is necessary for this team to compete for the cup.

Nope. Not at all. Dupuis wasn't even the best option for Sid's RW this year. And that was before a major knee injury to a guy who could only play with Sid because of speed.

 

[cassius]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=6747078&postcount=3 from 2006

No, you remember me disagreeing with a lot of the nonsense you said about Staal. I was talking up Kessel before that draft, loved what I saw in him, and he was the guy I wanted. Like always, I accept the guy chosen and pull for him to do well, because you can't change the pick.

Ironically, you liked the pick and said he would be a beast and a future Eric Staal. (Not to call you out or anything though)



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=262587&highlight=staal&page=2

Hey I can play that game too..

Staal should be sent back. He needs to get 18-22 minutes of ice time and he won't be getting that on the big club. There is also the contract situation.

I don't want to see him become a UFA at the same time as Malkin.

Letang seems to be having trouble with his transitions when speedy fwds. go wide on him.

I'm sure he will improve in that area, but with Orpik and Welch soon to be back, there won't be much ice time to give to Letang.

meanwhile.. he goes on to score 29 goals as an 18 year old. A+ talent evaluation

alright, i'm done here. enough thread derailing for now.. lol. continue.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

I'm going to say fire Bylsma, because a real coach would just look at Orpik, Adams, Glass and Pyatt and laugh before sitting them as either healthy scratches or 1 short shift per night players.

 

[diligent_d]

This is a ridiculous post.

1. Rob Scuderi is a solid defenseman, everyone complained when Shero only signed FA's over 30 to 2 years or less, now everyone is *****ing he gave them 4 years. He's much better than Orpik, and signing him has all signs pointing to Orpik walking this summer.

2. Nothing wrong with signing a depth forward for league minimum

3 and 4. Deadline deals, value of players increase, salary cap was high, Shero took the opportunity to bolster his team, not one of you were complaining about the moves then, everyone was calling Shero "king of the trade deadline". Prices were high, but we got a 3rd out of that Morrow trade which gave us a good forward prospect in Jake Guentzel, and we got a 2nd round pick for Tyler Kennedy which was traded up for a top goalie prospect in Tristan Jarry. (LOOK! SHERO ADDRESSED ORGANIZATIONAL NEEDS ) That Morrow trade shouldn't be judged until we see what Guentzel can do.

5. Who cares about the Dupuis signing, it's a deal that keeps him here, he's a pretty solid role player, I think this team misses him tremendously this season. I don't think term is a problem for a guy who (besides getting injured on a freak hit) is showing no signs of slowing down.

6. Dude, Adams is a serviceable 4th liner on a cheap contract, he's not as bad as people think, I can see people wanting him gone because he's not some flashy, standout 4th line winger, but he's serviceable, he's not useless. This is coming from a guy who wouldn't mind Adams leaving, but doesn't mean signing him is a bad move.

7. The "two players" traded for Jarome Iginla were mid level college prospects, let's not act like we emptied the cupboard for him, the first round pick was the most valuable piece and what would you rather have? An impact winger like Iginla for the playoffs? Or a late 1st round pick that likely won't sniff the NHL for 3 to 5 years? Also, let's not criticize Bylsma or Shero on where Iginla played, I heard Captain Crosby didn't want to play with Iginla because he wasn't fast enough to keep up with him. Doesn't mean he should have been on Malkin's LW, if we could travel back in time I would have done Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis on the 1st line, Jokinen-Malkin-Neal on the 2nd line, Morrow-Sutter-Iginla on the 3rd line, Cooke-Vitale-Kennedy on the 4th line. That's just what I would have done differently though.

8. Coaching extensions mean nothing, he gave Therrien an extension after the 2008 Finals loss to Detroit, that lasted all of about 5 or 6 months (8 if you include the offseason)

9. Oh my I HOPE you're being sarcastic. WHO CARES ABOUT BRIAN F'ING STRAIT?! THE GUY HAS NO VALUE, HE'S NOT EVEN GOOD! I'm sure Shero tried trading him, but no GM wanted to trade assets for a guy who was destined for waivers. Same goes for Dustin Jeffrey.

10. Oh please, don't give me that "trading Lovejoy for a 5th is a bad move" do you remember Lovejoy when he was here? How mediocre he was? Dude I used to talk to my best friend all the time BEGGING Shero to trade him because Bylsma would not bench him (same thing he's doing with Engelland). I don't care how Lovejoy is on the Ducks, he's playing with a better D partner under a better coach than he had here, he wasn't good here. I would have traded him for a 7th.

11. Only bad move I agree with, but even then it's such a minor move, it's not even worth nitpicking over, he signed a veteran defenseman to a cheap contract to play in a 48 game lockout season, a season he wasn't even around for the full 48 games! It's such a minor issue and he wasn't brought back. Who cares?

12. Just like Kobasew, he signed a cheap depth forward for league minimum, 2 guys that have had success in the past, given the opportunity to maybe find some of that magic on an offensive powerhouse team, they didn't do it, they're gone now.

Let me list some of Ray's GOOD moves

Traded 4 scrubs (Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a late 1st) for Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis. Even though we couldn't keep Hossa, Dupuis alone is better and more valuable than all those pieces combined. Also acquired Hal Gill and Gary Roberts which helped this team to a Cup Final.

Traded Ryan Whitney for Chris Kunitz and Eric Tangradi/Also traded a 3rd for Bill Guerin, Two essential players in our 2009 Stanley Cup Championship season.

Signed FAs like Matt Cooke, Ruslan Fedotenko (helped us win Lord Stanley) Paul Martin, Zbynek Michalek, Rob Scuderi, Jeff Zatkoff all players who had success as Penguins.

Traded Alex Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen, re-signed Neal to a 6 year, $30M which is a STEAL for a 30-40 goal scoring winger who is only, what, 25 or 26?

Traded Jordan Staal, a guy who was leaving for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin and the 8th overall pick who is currently a top prospect.

For a GM drafting late, he's drafted some guys with praise and hype. Bortuzzo, Muzzin, Despres, Bennett, Harrington, Maatta, Murray, Marcantuoni, Zlobin, Archibald, Guentzel, Jarry, Byron. He also has signed some decent FA rookies in Hartzell, Sill and Dea.

Trading NO ASSETS for Jussi Jokinen and having Carolina retain $900,000 of his salary.

Traded Tyler Kennedy for a 2nd round pick (to the Sharks, for an earlier 2nd than the one we traded for Murray, so IMO that negates one of the 2nd's traded for Murray)

Most recently, acquiring Lee Stempniak for a 3rd round pick, and acquiring Marcel Goc for a 2015 3rd + 2014 5th.

This is a fantastic post. Agree completely. I still think Shero is one of the better GMs in the league. Not the best, but not even close to being as bad as people here seem to think.

 

[ThatGuy]

i still like shero

 

[madinsomniac]

I think Bylsma has made Shero look Bad, and while I am no big Shero fan, I can say there were excuses for Bylsma up till last years playoff exit... Frankly this year, when used properly, Iginla and Morrow are everything they were supposed to be last year... Every shot blocking defensive defenseman has not fit Bylsma's use and system well, and a good portion of the young guys shero has moved on from have done excellently elsewhere when used differently... I think we have more talent than we show because the talent doesnt fit the use

 

[Shockmaster]

I think Shero's problem is he's too buddy-buddy with Bylsma. Shero allows his coach to make god awful line-up decisions and doesn't demand that Bylsma becomes better as a head coach. Remove Bylsma from the organization and perhaps Shero becomes a better GM again.

 

[hiptanaka]

If you get rid of Shero, you're getting rid of Bylsma by extension. Any new GM will hire his own coach, especially after seeing Bylsma. For that reason I didn't vote, but I'll say Shero for sure. Not a fan at all of the moves he's made the past couple of offseasons/trade deadlines/drafts. I'd like a culture change.

This. Too many failed experiments with Shero, poor draft record, unhealthy infatuation with Bylsma and garbage players like Adams, Glass, Eaton, etc. Getting rid of Shero would get you a 2-for-1 deal, and he's worn out his welcome here.

 

[Pens1566]

I'm not sure I follow, you still have faith in Shero even after "the past couple of BAD years"?

Let me list some of Ray's bad moves:

Signed Scuderi to FOUR years
Singed Kobasew
Traded for Brendan Morrow giving up a first round pick
Traded for Murray and gave up 2 Second round picks for 2 months of service
Signed Dupuis to FOUR years
Signed Adams to TWO years
Trades for Iginla for two players and first round pick, allows coach not to use him correctly and then doesn't attempt to resign.
Signed Dan Bylsma to TWO years
Loses Brian Strait for nothing
Trades Lovejoy for a 5th round pick
Signs Mark Eaton
Signs D'Agostini

Scuderi - Jury is still out. At the time everyone was in favor of it. He's been injured and not recovered. Remember when some were ready to burn Martin in effigy after his first season? How has that turned around?

Kobasew - No risk, moderate reward situation. Low cost option for a team that had it's forward depth gutted by FA.

Morrow - He was very productive after the trade and before he started playing on the injured knee. He's doing just fine in a similar role on the best team in the league. High price to pay for him, but you can't fault it.

Murray - I go back and forth on this one. We clearly needed a physical presence to clear the crease. But he's just awful at everything else.

Dupuis - He gets a ton of grief around here, but he is what he is. For the cost you're not likely to find a more versatile or productive player. Injury doesn't help the perception and he isn't what I would consider a 1st line winger in optimal circumstances but he has done fine playing with Sid.

Adams - No argument. Guy is done. But again, low cost.

Iginla - You'll never convince me that this situation was anything but Bylsma going full Bylsma and using the premier RW of the last 10/15 yrs out of position and hardly at all on a PP that absolutely needed a cannon shot from the left wall.

Bylsma - Agree. He should have been gone after '12.

Strait/Lovejoy - They weren't going to unseat anyone here anyway. Let's not kid ourselves.

Eaton - See Kobasew.

D'Agostini - See Eaton.

 

[Coastal Kev]

This is a fantastic post. Agree completely. I still think Shero is one of the better GMs in the league. Not the best, but not even close to being as bad as people here seem to think.

Spin it any way that you want, Take a look at the team assembled by Shero around the players he was gifted (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury) and you tell me what he has built. Our lack of developing forwards has now come home to roost. Also, go back to this past offseason and some here stated that this season was destined for an epic failure. Maybe the reason for all of these injuries are due to the fact that this team is very soft. When matched up against physical teams they simply wilt under pressure. AND SHERO is 100% responsible for this team.

 

[Uemoda]

Fire DB....Scotty Bowman is still alive.

Bowman would never coach this team again. Even if he were to come out of pseudo-retirement, Mario would sooner jump out a window.

I voted A but I didn't look at the OP first. Fail on my part.