If they retired today, are they HHoFers? (Anonymous voting)

[Wierzbowski426]

There are worse players than Elias already in the hall. Quite a few.

He should be in.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Poor post. Brad played during Orr's 8 consecutive Norris run. Elias and Weber combined only won a Messier trophy and Weber has no SCs. They're Hall of Very Good, not HHoFers.

Park lost Norris trophies to Orr and Potvin, not just to Orr. Weber lost Norris trophies to Lidstrom and Karlsson. Where's the shame in that?

A shred of comprehension would make it obvious I wasnt saying Park = Weber, just pointing out that an empty trophy case isnt a disqualifier. Fact remains that Park has no individual trophies and no Cups and it doesnt prevent him from being in the best to ever do it group, same way Weber has no awards or Cups and it doesn't prevent him from being a HOF'er. Not all HOF'ers are equal, there are levels to it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Neither did Brad Park

Yep was just runner up 6 times out of 8 years for the Norris.

 

[Elvis P]

Park lost Norris trophies to Orr and Potvin, not just to Orr. ...

Thanks for reinforcing my point that your Park/Weber comparison is lame.

 

[Elvis P]

I really like Weber a lot, he's just a tier below for me, he hasn't won anything major at the NHL level. Was always a great player, but just a step behind, Hall of very good for me.

One of the most overrated players of his generation. He is a mean looking Canadian who hit hard and had a booming shot, but there are quite a few defensemen who were better than him when he played.

Great posts. This is why he never won a Norris or a SC. He does not have a HHoF resume. Elias has no individual trophies.

 

[JaegerDice]

Everyone except Elias and Weber

My answer as well.

 

[Soundgarden]

Everyone of them will get in. Shea Weber shouldn't but he will.

Weber and Elias no.

The rest all have a strong case.

I really like Weber a lot, he's just a tier below for me, he hasn't won anything major at the NHL level. Was always a great player, but just a step behind, Hall of very good for me.

My answer as well.

Weber will certainly get in, not many defensemen have his Norris voting record. If Keith gets in Weber has to.

 

[I am not exposed]

Weber will certainly get in, not many defensemen have his Norris voting record. If Keith gets in Weber has to.

He'll get in, but he doesn't deserve it.

Keith a tier above when it comes to defensemen.

 

[Soundgarden]

He'll get in, but he doesn't deserve it.

Keith a tier above when it comes to defensemen.

Weber and Keith are on the same plane, just look at both of them in '14 when Keith won his Norris

 

[I am not exposed]

Weber and Keith are on the same plane, just look at both of them in '14 when Keith won his Norris

Disagree. As I already said in this thread, Weber is overrated.

 

[Soundgarden]

Disagree. As I already said in this thread, Weber is overrated.

Keith scored as many goals as Weber had game winning goals that year, Weber had an additional 20.

Keith played with a prime Toews, Kane, Crawford, Sharp and Hossa. Weber played with a rookie Craig Smith, an old David Legwand and dogshit. Because of a hip infection Rinne only played 20 games, despite all this Weber got them within 2 points of the playoffs and only missed on the last day.

He may be overrated to some, but he is still a HOFer and was amongst the best in the league for a decade.

 

[JaegerDice]

Weber will certainly get in, not many defensemen have his Norris voting record. If Keith gets in Weber has to.

Keith has 2 Norrises, a Conn Smythe, and 3 cups, none of which Weber has.

What player has gotten into the HHOF based on the voting record for an award he never even won?!

 

[Soundgarden]

Keith has 2 Norrises, a Conn Smythe, and 3 cups, none of which Weber has.

Keith also played with forwards who scored more than 50 points a year.

It's fine if you like Keith, Chara or Lidstrom more, but Weber is in the same conversation for best defenseman of the 10's.

 

[JaegerDice]

Keith also played with forwards who scored more than 50 points a year.

It's fine if you like Keith, Chara or Lidstrom more, but Weber is in the same conversation for best defenseman of the 10's.

That’s fine, but Ive still never seen a player enter the HHOF based on the voting record for an award he never actually managed to win.

Weber’s best argument is his international resume. Im not sure its enough based on a lack of individual hardware but its a better case than lots of Norris votes that never amounted to a win.

 

[Soundgarden]

That’s fine, but Ive still never seen a player enter the HHOF based on the voting record for an award he never actually managed to win.

Weber’s best argument is his international resume. Im not sure it's enough based on a lack of individual hardware but it's a better case than lots of Norris votes that never amounted to a win.

Weber lost the Norris by the smallest margin in history, twice. He may not have won it, but he was within 20 votes of winning two Norris'. Plus he has a decade of top 10 finishes, it's hard to ignore, especially compared to other HHOF defensemen.

Weber was more than a good international player on a stacked Canadian team though, a lot of people just didn't watch Nashville in his prime however.

 

[AvroArrow]

Weber will certainly get in, not many defensemen have his Norris voting record. If Keith gets in Weber has to.

Keith was significantly better ?

 

[Soundgarden]

Keith was significantly better ?

Significantly better, no. Keith was a Norris level defenseman who happened to play on a dynasty in a big market, Weber was a Norris level defenseman who played for mostly middle of the pack teams in a small market with little media coverage until '17.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Great posts. This is why he never won a Norris or a SC. He does not have a HHoF resume. Elias has no individual trophies.

People will take whatever criteria they want and twist if so their opinion makes sense, like everyone here considers Zetterberg a lock, with 1 Stanley Cup and a Conn Smythe even though he failed to hit 1000 career points and Elias who won 2 Stanley Cups and eclipsed 1000 career points shouldn't even get in.

So 1 Conn Smythe is worth more than a Cup and 65 points.

And the worst part, is that it actually makes sense even to me.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I dont get it, if they retired today but almost all of them are retired. why not just ask if these players will make the HHoF? lol

 

[AvroArrow]

Significantly better, no. Keith was a Norris level defenseman who happened to play on a dynasty in a big market, Weber was a Norris level defenseman who played for mostly middle of the pack teams in a small market with little media coverage until '17.

Offensively Keith blew him out of the water. He was a better skater, although Weber was a more physical presence, I'd argue Keiths stick checking and defensive abilities were better.

 

[Soundgarden]

Offensively Keith blew him out of the water. He was a better skater, although Weber was a more physical presence, I'd argue Keiths stick checking and defensive abilities were better.

Keith put up two 60 point seasons, while playing with several HHOFs or all-star caliber forwards, he never scored more than 14 goals a year. Ended with 106G 646p in over 1,200 games.

Weber led his team in scoring more than once, scored 14 or more goals 11 times, and had a career high 56 points, ending with 224G and 589 points in 1,000 games.

you may have an argument defensively, but to say Keith was significantly better offensively is wrong.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Keith has 2 Norrises, a Conn Smythe, and 3 cups, none of which Weber has.

What player has gotten into the HHOF based on the voting record for an award he never even won?!

Plenty of examples:

- Borje Salming - 0 Norris trophies, 7 time finalist
- Brad Park - 0 Norris trophies, 6 time finalist
- Bill Gadsby - 0 Norris trophies, 4 time finalist
- Scott Stevens - 0 Norris trophies, 3 time finalist
- Mark Howe - 0 Norris trophies, 3 time finalist

Granted, Stevens won a Conn Smythe and multiple Stanley Cups, but none of the other defensemen listed accomplished either.

This isn't directed at you specifically, but HFBoards has become increasingly obsessed with the binary outcome of whether a player won a trophy or not. It's instructive to look at the number of years a player is a finalist (or even top 5-10) for an award, because that correlates to "greatness" (ie being inducted into the Hall of Fame or being ranked highly on subjective lists) more strongly than simply looking at whether a player won an award or not. (That's why Salming, Park, Gadsby and Howe - despite never winning a Norris or a Stanley Cup - are consistently ranked higher than defensemen who won a Norris trophy and never again came close - such as Mark Giordano, Randy Carlyle, Harry Howell).

 

[AvroArrow]

Keith put up two 60 point seasons, while playing with several HHOFs or all-star caliber forwards, he never scored more than 14 goals a year. Ended with 106G 646p in over 1,200 games.

Weber led his team in scoring more than once, scored 14 or more goals 11 times, and had a career high 56 points, ending with 224G and 589 points in 1,000 games.

you may have an argument defensively, but to say Keith was significantly better offensively is wrong.

He put up 69 points in the 2010 season when they won their first cup, which were the 2nd most points by a D man and actually more than what Toews scored that season. The leading scorer that year scored 112, significantly lower scoring era, that would equate to over ppg in the modern NHL.

2 Norrisses, a conn smythe, 3 cups

His other "60 point season" was in 2014, again he was the 2nd highest scoring D man, behind only prime Karlsson, a year where Kane and Toews also only put up "60 point seasons"

Weber was paired with Ryan Suter for how many years ? Although the preds never had the offence the Hawks did, they were arguably the best defensive team and maybe had the best blue line in hockey.

 

[Soundgarden]

He put up 69 points in the 2010 season when they won their first cup, which were the 2nd most points by a D man and actually more than what Toews scored that season. The leading scorer that year scored 112, significantly lower scoring era, that would equate to over ppg in the modern NHL.

2 Norrisses, a conn smythe, 3 cups

His other "60 point season" was in 2014, again he was the 2nd highest scoring D man, behind only prime Karlsson, a year where Kane and Toews also only put up "60 point seasons"

Weber was paired with Ryan Suter for how many years ? Although the preds never had the offence the Hawks did, they were arguably the best defensive team and maybe had the best blue line in hockey.

Thanks in large part to... Shea Weber.

 

[Albatros]

Elias is the only one that isn’t an absolute lock

Two cups and over 300 more points than anyone else in Devils history, more goals than 3rd and 4th placed guys put together. One of only two Czech players to score 1000 points.