If the Plan Isn't to Rebuild

[Leaf Army]

Im actually a Phaneuf supporter, for the most part.That said, I think it's tome for a new voice to emerge and change the energy and atmosphere around the team. It's probably best for both the player and team at this point if he is traded. The value is not only in the return, but in the change in culture which is probably necessary at this point.

This mindset is exactly how terrible trades get made. These are the types of trades that happen and then you look back and say what were they thinking.

I have no doubt that a trade would be best for Phaneuf. I'm not really concerned with that though. I'd take no pleasure in watching Phaneuf have success somewhere else. I only care about the Leafs.

A culture change might be needed but who exactly is going to provide that? Do we have some other great leader waiting in the wings that's being held down by Phaneuf? I don't think so. A culture change can still happen with Phaneuf on the team.

A new voice to go along with Phaneuf would go a lot further I think than just replacing Phaneuf's voice with a different one.

 

[seanlinden]

Leafs need to unbuild: diffuse the negativity surrounding the current core by dismantling it, accumulate as many picks as possible to do the proper talent search for core pieces for a 2018 and beyond team so the young pieces we currently have won't be idling in the primes while management fails to provide them with help, and clear as much cap room as possible.

Yes, Stamkos is a pipedream but they still need to be prepared to pounce on that instead of realizing they're capped out and can't move on a big fish. Can't have a situation where the Leafs are kicking themselves with what ifs for the next 2 decades just because their cap was all screwed up.

The negativity is about the logo on the front, not the name on the back. Personally, I can't see any reason why a drafted player would develop into a high quality NHL talent in such an environment.

 

[Durkin67]

This mindset is exactly how terrible trades get made. These are the types of trades that happen and then you look back and say what were they thinking.

I have no doubt that a trade would be best for Phaneuf. I'm not really concerned with that though. I'd take no pleasure in watching Phaneuf have success somewhere else. I only care about the Leafs.

A culture change might be needed but who exactly is going to provide that? Do we have some other great leader waiting in the wings that's being held down by Phaneuf? I don't think so. A culture change can still happen with Phaneuf on the team.

A new voice to go along with Phaneuf would go a lot further I think than just replacing Phaneuf's voice with a different one.

uhhh. nope.



sorry, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're way off.

The Leafs need a culture change in order to succeed, not just for sh!ts and giggles, or for the player's sake, and because he carries value, the return can and should be significant.

You need to weigh the pluses and the minuses of any potential deal for Phaneuf bsed on its own individual merit. Generalizations don't apply or carry any weight.

The team needs a new attitude, and Phaneuf is the loudest voice in the room, but that doesn't mean he's the guy garnering the most respect. That alone is reason enough to explore every option. My sense is with Phaneuf out, other leaders will emerge such as Lupul, probably Franson, maybe Clarkson, and likely a few others.


Its been what-five years of Dion doing the alpha male thing? where's the result? If there is interest, and I believe there is, he's the guy you look to move and start changing the feel and the culture of the room.

He is what he is. He's not going to show you anymore than he has already. Is that enough for you?
If not, then ask yourself how freeing up that salary and roster space to re-up with Franny and/or Kadri is a move you are ever going to regret?

 

[I Believe]

If the plan isn't to rebuild after this season, then i'm not really sure what has to happen for us to rebuild. How much lower can you go?

 

[silentbob37*]

If the plan isn't to rebuild after this season, then i'm not really sure what has to happen for us to rebuild. How much lower can you go?

I guess the plan would be to hope for Stamkos

 

[Tak7]

I guess the plan would be to hope for Stamkos

Which isn't a strategy, but a pipe dream - can't wait until he resigns in Tampa so this ridiculous idea that he would leave his current location can finally come to an end.

 

[Steve]

This is the best opportunity to tear it apart. The fans (who are now arguably smarter than their management) are asking for it. They can blow it up and the fans will happily accept it.

Obviously this means the Leafs will do the exact opposite. I fear there will be a trade for Staal or O'Reilly etc..

If they don't take this chance to tear down and start over, I have no idea what they are going to do moving forward.

 

[Tak7]

This is the best opportunity to tear it apart. The fans (who are now arguably smarter than their management) are asking for it. They can blow it up and the fans will happily accept it.

Obviously this means the Leafs will do the exact opposite. I fear there will be a trade for Staal or O'Reilly etc..

If they don't take this chance to tear down and start over, I have no idea what they are going to do moving forward.

O'Rielly is young enough that you can add him AND hit the reset switch. By the time this team is ready to contend, based on a 4-5 year plan, ROR will be in his prime.

I don't know that this market can be patient enough for a rebuild, but I do agree - I think the fans are ready for one and would accept one. At least, initially.

 

[Daisy Jane]

O'Rielly is young enough that you can add him AND hit the reset switch. By the time this team is ready to contend, based on a 4-5 year plan, ROR will be in his prime.

I don't know that this market can be patient enough for a rebuild, but I do agree - I think the fans are ready for one and would accept one. At least, initially.

and if you trade for him - you have him in he system, relay what the plan is so he can be committed, or want to be moved (which we could totally do and get an asset back).

works for me.

 

[Trapper]

and if you trade for him - you have him in he system, relay what the plan is so he can be committed, or want to be moved (which we could totally do and get an asset back).

works for me.

Say you got O'Reilly back for Phaneuf. Then the players coming in from a Kessel deal. Still finish low enough to draft a Strome/Barzal. That's a good start.

 

[frog]

unless you strip phanuef of the C which wouldn't work out, he is gonna be the face of the franchise unless hes traded. Management has done nothing but shove phanuef down everyones throats and theres no going back. He will be the identity of this team as long as he is on the leafs

 

[Daisy Jane]

Say you got O'Reilly back for Phaneuf. Then the players coming in from a Kessel deal. Still finish low enough to draft a Strome/Barzal. That's a good start.

exactly. people are all like - why would you trade for O'Rielly when you can sign him as a UFA...

the chances of us signing ANYONE (other than Million Dollar Boys) as a UFA is slim to none. so I think we should be looking at expiring contracts (that are ugly) + prospects/picks.

O'Rielly's is ugly(ish) and you know he'll be a hard sign.
if he has the capabilities of being something you want to build off - build around him, and his contract (as we're rebuilding) won't hurt. If he doesn't want to do that, or it doesn't work out - flip him. boom.

those would be the 'contracts' i'd be looking for to move out some of these pieces. everyone keeps going they'd get rid of Lupul first - the fact that he's injured all the time actually helps us cap wise because he just goes on IR. if he's a bad bum to have around then yeah move him for for another broken piece (bad cap hit? you know he'll get hurt, see yah!, to the IR for you).

and continue on until you can stop having to do that. (which should be around 4-5ish years from now?) developmentally speaking for the first layer of kids yah?

 

[Faltorvo]

This mindset is exactly how terrible trades get made. These are the types of trades that happen and then you look back and say what were they thinking.

I have no doubt that a trade would be best for Phaneuf. I'm not really concerned with that though. I'd take no pleasure in watching Phaneuf have success somewhere else. I only care about the Leafs.

A culture change might be needed but who exactly is going to provide that? Do we have some other great leader waiting in the wings that's being held down by Phaneuf? I don't think so. A culture change can still happen with Phaneuf on the team.

A new voice to go along with Phaneuf would go a lot further I think than just replacing Phaneuf's voice with a different one.

save for the pending ufa s

dion and kessel are absolutely at the top of the gtfo list

I am not going to list again why.

 

[Faltorvo]

Say you got O'Reilly back for Phaneuf. Then the players coming in from a Kessel deal. Still finish low enough to draft a Strome/Barzal. That's a good start.

I'd take ror just to flip him again

probably easier to move him then dion.

 

[Drew75]

The reality is that Kessel is not getting traded. He is a top talent in the league, and the only real problem with him on the Leafs is that he's expected to be the #1 guy, rather than a Kane to a Toews. We would seriously lose any deal for Kessel.

Phaneuf moving is a possibility.

The other reality is that team will NOT do a rebuild the way HF Boards wants them to. The sooner we accept, the healthier we'll all be.

IF the slide continues, they will likely move guys like Franson, Winnik, Booth, and possibly Lupul if there are any takers. Hopefully we'll grab a couple of 2nd's, if the hockey gods smile, perhaps another 1st.

They will draft, add fillers, and wait for guys to develop.

 

[Trapper]

The reality is that Kessel is not getting traded. He is a top talent in the league, and the only real problem with him on the Leafs is that he's expected to be the #1 guy, rather than a Kane to a Toews. We would seriously lose any deal for Kessel.

Phaneuf moving is a possibility.

The other reality is that team will NOT do a rebuild the way HF Boards wants them to. The sooner we accept, the healthier we'll all be.

IF the slide continues, they will likely move guys like Franson, Winnik, Booth, and possibly Lupul if there are any takers. Hopefully we'll grab a couple of 2nd's, if the hockey gods smile, perhaps another 1st.

They will draft, add fillers, and wait for guys to develop.

Keeping Kessel to slowly draft and develop players for the next 5 years while finishing 8-12 is an absolutely ridiculous plan.

 

[Faltorvo]

Keeping Kessel to slowly draft and develop players for the next 5 years while finishing 8-12 is an absolutely ridiculous plan.

adding assets from PK that are in the same age/timeline as the rebuild is a better plan.

 

[Trapper]

adding assets from PK that are in the same age/timeline as the rebuild is a better plan.

Exactly.
This team needs to draft it's no. 1 center and D. No player on this roster will get that in return.
What the remains of the Burke era can get us though, is a replenishment of higher end surround talent in our organization. Replacing players like Biggs/Ross/Devane/Ryan etc. with players like Nylander/Fiala/Jenner(types) etc.

 

[Pucker77]

Youre convoluting the issue to support a pretty flawed premise.

1. Phaneuf wouldn't replace a third pairing D man. He'd be top 4, maybe top 2 depending on fit and chemistry.
2. In order to free up cap for their young forwards, it makes sense to get Richards of the books
3. Voynov will leave a hole which Phaneuf can easily fill
4. During the course of negotiations, TOR could take salary back and demand a pick if they felt so led.
5. I'm certainly not the first to speculate about Phaneuf to LA for Richards.

If they did not go after a deal such as this, they still need to move bodies out to make cap space to accommodate those young players. Thayve been talking about moving Richards for two seasons now. This is a golden opportunity for both teams to deal with their respective needs. For that reason alone, such a deal makes perfect sense.


All you've "shown" is your opinion on the matter. Let's not pretend to know for certain...

1. I was talking about his style of play as the physical LHD like regher is. I clearly stated later that Phaneuf would be on the 2nd pairing, probably with Martinez simply because Phaneuf can play the right side.
2. How does trading a $5.75m Richards for a $7m Phaneuf "free up cap for the young kids?"
3. Already said he would be in the 2nd pairing AKA Voynov's spot.
4. What salary do the Leafs take back? Besides Brown the Kings don't give out bad contracts like the Leafs. All their players are paid AT LEAST close to proper value. The only ones worth trading come off the books this season and they don't need the space until the offseason so its moot anyways.
5. I have heard people speculate and a Richards and Phaneuf swap before, so I understand that you were not the first to mention it. I am simply explaining why LA does not do this.

If anything they would want Franson, RHD, offensive player, cheap contract, gives them.depth for a playoff run and if they like each other they can resign him, if not his salary can go towards Williams new contract, or Pearson, Toffoli, Clifford, Nolan, or Kings new contracts.

 

[FlareKnight]

The reality is that Kessel is not getting traded. He is a top talent in the league, and the only real problem with him on the Leafs is that he's expected to be the #1 guy, rather than a Kane to a Toews. We would seriously lose any deal for Kessel.

Phaneuf moving is a possibility.

The other reality is that team will NOT do a rebuild the way HF Boards wants them to. The sooner we accept, the healthier we'll all be.

IF the slide continues, they will likely move guys like Franson, Winnik, Booth, and possibly Lupul if there are any takers. Hopefully we'll grab a couple of 2nd's, if the hockey gods smile, perhaps another 1st.

They will draft, add fillers, and wait for guys to develop.

The speculation is that Kessel won't be traded. That's not a fact or reality, because it's the future and hasn't happened yet. It's easier to guess that something won't happen, but that doesn't mean much.

Of course you lose that kind of trade in the short term, but it will still pay off more in the long term. Hang on to Kessel and it takes even longer to gather the pieces needed to rebuild this thing. All that Kessel has going for him gives him value in pieces you are getting back.

You need to accept that your predictions for the future are not guaranteed reality . If they don't rebuild the way they should then we are not all going to be healthier. Depression from a team that can't get turned around is not healthy.

If the plan isn't to rebuild we are likely doomed. If they aren't willing to move the big pieces then the little bits you get from selling periphery parts will just turn any forward momentum into a slow slog through the mud. If we want to wait another 6 years then sure we should hold onto Kessel, trade a few UFAs and see how it goes.