News Article: "IF our team is competitive" (2015 onward talk)

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Just so I am 100% on this...

Some fans believe that by calling up a smaller, older, less skilled centre is going to help us, after trading away his larger younger, more skilled 'predecessor'?

Thanks to trading away Ganger, our centre depth is more laughable than last year...and I thought that that was impossible.

We are currently dependent on a draftee rising to the need, or slotting in 3rd/4th liners...and that is before any injury takes place.

At least last year, we had 2 #2 centres...

Gagner is not a #2 center. He would be a decent winger if he could adapt but he had bad faceoff, horrible defensive zone play and cheated to produce most of his offense.

Arcobello produces less offense but is stronger on the dot and much stronger defensively.

Is Arcobello a great center? Not yet. For the cost is he at least equal to Gagner if not better? Absolutely

 

[Aerchon]

Gagner just turned 25, has 300 NHL pts, has a multiple year 5m buck contract and has "failed".?

Again I'm not trying to be difficult, and I thank you for keeping the convo civil, but I don't know what to do with some of these comments.

In honesty you're shooting from the hip at least as much as you're claiming I am.

To say Gagner isn't much good at anything is obviously silly. Put him on a team with two defenders the likes of which we haven't seen any of since Pronger, and put him with a big veteran forward lineup and theres going to be a lot of shelter that Gagner has rarely had the benefit of. The "resources" as you state in Edmonton have been very limited.

Phoenix is not a particularly good team, and they should have some trouble scoring, but they should be OK at keeping the puck out of their net (well except for Dubnyk, I'm having a hard time with that..)

When I say failed I mean as a centerman. I got to remember to say that more often. He is widely considered one of the worst top 6 centers in the league (from what i've have heard) because of his two way game. His offensive numbers have always been at least respectable and he is obviously very offensively talented.

The "resources" as you state in Edmonton have been very limited. That was what I ment. I always try to put a bit of asterisk on Gagner's lack of success because he could just be a product of a terrible system/coaching.

We always end up on opposite sides of the Gagner debate but that is because I think you take it too far. Most of my conversations outside of these boards I am usually very positive about Gagner. I finally had enough of him this last year, but am still very curious how he will do in Tippets system. Personally I think his last couple years he has regressed significantly on his 2 way game. Under Renny he was much better but his offense also suffered a bit.

I find it difficult to imagine his game will change radically after 7 years in the NHL. I think he will improve defensively but his offense will suffer.

With Arco I see someone much better defensively that, while still unproven, could also be as effective offensively as Gagner was. If/when his offensive game starts to translate to the NHL.

If Gagner does succeed in Pho, for me this will put another light on exactly how terrible our coaching/management truly is.

If I remember correctly neither you or I think Eakins is worth the salt in his body but no matter how bad Eakins is, a player still has to responsible for their own overall play. For me Gagner overall play is just not good and we are well into his peak playing years.

 

[Mr Positive]

Gagner is not a #2 center. He would be a decent winger if he could adapt but he had bad faceoff, horrible defensive zone play and cheated to produce most of his offense.

Arcobello produces less offense but is stronger on the dot and much stronger defensively.

Is Arcobello a great center? Not yet. For the cost is he at least equal to Gagner if not better? Absolutely

I would agree, but I do see the problems with Arco. If faceoffs and defense were enough, Gordon would be a good option as our 1C, let alone 2C. For those top lines, you need players who will push the play forward. If you focus too much on defense then you will play the game a lot in your own end. If a scoring line has even one poor finisher, then the opposition will shut down that line easier by focusing on the players who can score.

I feel what separates Arco from Gordon is that Arco will recognize good gambles to push aggressively, but he also has a similar problem as Gordon in that he has to be a bigger offensive threat in order to cut it as a scoring line forward.

In other words, I support Arcobello as a placekeeper for 2C but he needs to step up his offensive game. Arco isn't a young player anymore but he lacks NHL experience, so I am assuming that he can improve and learn as he gains confidence.

I would say that based on his AHL success, Arcobello will be better in the NHL than he's been so far. A lot of his missed opportunities in the NHL were point-blank shots in the slot. That tells me that he's got a pscyhological issue, not a skill issue, since they were shots that go in on AHL goalies just as easily as NHL goalies. It's like he does all the right two-way positional plays (like Gagner doesn't do) but doesn't execute with the puck when it matters (like Gagner does do very well).

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

When I say failed I mean as a centerman. I got to remember to say that more often. He is widely considered one of the worst top 6 centers in the league (from what i've have heard) because of his two way game. His offensive numbers have always been at least respectable and he is obviously very offensively talented.

The "resources" as you state in Edmonton have been very limited. That was what I ment. I always try to put a bit of asterisk on Gagner's lack of success because he could just be a product of a terrible system/coaching.

We always end up on opposite sides of the Gagner debate but that is because I think you take it too far. Most of my conversations outside of these boards I am usually very positive about Gagner. I finally had enough of him this last year, but am still very curious how he will do in Tippets system. Personally I think his last couple years he has regressed significantly on his 2 way game. Under Renny he was much better but his offense also suffered a bit.

I find it difficult to imagine his game will change radically after 7 years in the NHL. I think he will improve defensively but his offense will suffer.

With Arco I see someone much better defensively that, while still unproven, could also be as effective offensively as Gagner was. If/when his offensive game starts to translate to the NHL.

If Gagner does succeed in Pho, for me this will put another light on exactly how terrible our coaching/management truly is.

If I remember correctly neither you or I think Eakins is worth the salt in his body but no matter how bad Eakins is, a player still has to responsible for their own overall play. For me Gagner overall play is just not good and we are well into his peak playing years.

Gagner's offense is very inconsistent. Arcobellos is less then Gagner I agree with people on that.

You take away the offense and what so you have left with the players? Gagner is not strong on the puck, has an alright pass is defensively awful and rarely lays out a hit. Arcobello is strong on the pick, has a decent pass, is strong defensively and is willing to lay people out as much as he can.

I rather have the player that still does things when he isn't scoring.

 

[member 145483]

Gagner is not a #2 center. He would be a decent winger if he could adapt but he had bad faceoff, horrible defensive zone play and cheated to produce most of his offense.

Arcobello produces less offense but is stronger on the dot and much stronger defensively.

Is Arcobello a great center? Not yet. For the cost is he at least equal to Gagner if not better? Absolutely

If Ganger is not a #2 centre, than his lesser replacement isn't going to be much of a #2 centre.

As for Arcobello's defensive 'prowess'...um, we can't afford to trade offense for defense...we were pretty abysmal at both, so that is kind of a wash.

On the dot, yes, Arcobello is better, but is a 5% difference on the dot going to translate into more Oilers wins? It didn't in his 41 game stint last year, and see no reason to think that that will differ this year.

I sincerely wish I could muster the optimism you have, I just see more of the same.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

If Ganger is not a #2 centre, than his lesser replacement isn't going to be much of a #2 centre.

As for Arcobello's defensive 'prowess'...um, we can't afford to trade offense for defense...we were pretty abysmal at both, so that is kind of a wash.

On the dot, yes, Arcobello is better, but is a 5% difference on the dot going to translate into more Oilers wins? It didn't in his 41 game stint last year, and see no reason to think that that will differ this year.

I sincerely wish I could muster the optimism you have, I just see more of the same.

A 5% difference is actually pretty significant. Easier to score goals and not get scored on when you start the play with the puck.

Arcobello spent most of his time playing with ****** 3/4 liners cause they wanted Gagner to succeed which he failed at.

I'm not saying Arcobello is the best player ever but he is at least as good as Gagner, is much much cheaper as well.

People make it seem like going from Gagner to Arcobello is taking us from a playoff team to the worst in the league.

There was a reason that Gagner was only worth a cap dump to one team and literally less then a 6th round draft pick to another. And it's not cause he is an amazing player.

 

[Beerfish]

A 5% difference is actually pretty significant. Easier to score goals and not get scored on when you start the play with the puck.

Arcobello spent most of his time playing with ****** 3/4 liners cause they wanted Gagner to succeed which he failed at.

I'm not saying Arcobello is the best player ever but he is at least as good as Gagner, is much much cheaper as well.

People make it seem like going from Gagner to Arcobello is taking us from a playoff team to the worst in the league.

There was a reason that Gagner was only worth a cap dump to one team and literally less then a 6th round draft pick to another. And it's not cause he is an amazing player.

Gagner was worth a 2nd/3rd line NHL winger because that is what we got for him. People quoting that other ancilliary deal are blowing smoke. In any case this once gain hilights the oilers buy high sell low mentality. If the guy was not in the teams plans they should have been moving him after his good strike shortened year rather than signing him to a large money deal because he was a key contributor.

 

[rboomercat90]

Gagner was worth a 2nd/3rd line NHL winger because that is what we got for him. People quoting that other ancilliary deal are blowing smoke. In any case this once gain hilights the oilers buy high sell low mentality. If the guy was not in the teams plans they should have been moving him after his good strike shortened year rather than signing him to a large money deal because he was a key contributor.

The Oilers logic is absolutely baffling at times. They seem to believe that signing players to high money multi year contracts increases a players value regardless of their play on the ice. How anybody could come to the conclusion that overpaying a player for multi years is attractive to anybody is beyond me. In a cap world smart teams are looking for value in players.

Tambellini did it with Hemsky and Mactavish did the same thing with Gagner. Definitely some flaws in the organizations philosophy or understanding of the cap or the CBA.

 

[Replacement*]

Gagner's offense is very inconsistent. Arcobellos is less then Gagner I agree with people on that.

You take away the offense and what so you have left with the players? Gagner is not strong on the puck, has an alright pass is defensively awful and rarely lays out a hit. Arcobello is strong on the pick, has a decent pass, is strong defensively and is willing to lay people out as much as he can.

I rather have the player that still does things when he isn't scoring.

In what universe, lol, is Arco "stronger on the puck than Gagner" Oh, the AHL, I forgot..

Always love the bit about defensively awful as well. The two years prior to last season (before the coaching disaster that was Eakins) there wasn't a forward more likely to be backchecking and covering back for a jumping D than Gagner.

Arco is "strong defensively" Oh ****...

Theres Arco, then theres the created hopeful version that people have of Arco.

 

[Replacement*]

A 5% difference is actually pretty significant. Easier to score goals and not get scored on when you start the play with the puck.

Arcobello spent most of his time playing with ****** 3/4 liners cause they wanted Gagner to succeed which he failed at.

I'm not saying Arcobello is the best player ever but he is at least as good as Gagner, is much much cheaper as well.

People make it seem like going from Gagner to Arcobello is taking us from a playoff team to the worst in the league.

There was a reason that Gagner was only worth a cap dump to one team and literally less then a 6th round draft pick to another. And it's not cause he is an amazing player.

The easy counter to this is "theres a reason" Arco has 40NHL games played while spending his entire time working for the easiest to crack lineup in the NHL and "its not because he is an amazing player"

PS Arco is older than Gagner, has had much better coaching through his pro career, and hasn't had to play on a brutal club all these years. Arco would probably be playing in Europe by now if he had faced any particularly daunting challenges.

 

[Beerfish]

Some fun talk about the state of our team before the season started, especially discussion of the center position.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Oh well. New AHL coach, same AHL team.

 

[Throttlehead]

Oh well. New AHL coach, same AHL team.

What is the coach doing wrong? You always spout off this line, but what is your complaint about him?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

What is the coach doing wrong? You always spout off this line, but what is your complaint about him?

PP is still a mess. Last game Nikitin scored on a PP bomb.. and then I don't recall him getting much PP time in the third, despite the fact that bombs from the point are an effective strategy.

Defensive coverage, while I don't expect it to be airtight is still very sloppy. Ovechkin could've had a few more goals last game with how wide open they were leaving him. Not to mention two more goals off deflections right in front of the goalie with no one taking the man. The Blues or Hawks would've made mincemeat of that porous defensive coverage.

Lack of accountability. The top line has been dreadful (and was against the Caps) but they continue to be spoonfed minutes whereas hard workers are shunned. Nikitin and Schultz are still dreadful and will always be given a large amount of minutes.

Not even trying to stand up for each other. The Oilers will never be a goony team (like say the Blues) but there were a number of occasions during the road trip where individual players were ganged up on or were dragged into a scrum without the help of any teammate. Last game the Caps delivered a few questionable hits and nobody so much as even spoke to one of the Caps. In the game against the Blues Pouliot was ganged up on as time expired and again the Oilers did nothing about it.

The team visually looks better but they're still making a lot of the same errors that they made under Eakins. The only real difference is that they're trying harder. And while that's great, that's not enough to warrant keeping Nelson around after the season is done.

 

[Beerfish]

Disagree about Nelson, he has not been perfect but the pp is better and most important the overall compete level and will to win is much better. I think MacT will be in a tough spot at the end of the year re Nelson. I don't think mact likes him all that much but if the oilers keep winning...

 

[Tarus]

Ah yes, one of the annual "skeptics vs. apologist" offseason threads, the Arcobello themed one to boot. What a mess that turned out to be

Gotta feel bad for the apologists at this point though. They've spent the 10 years getting humiliated in these predictive threads for an organization that consistently manages to underperform against even the lowest of expectations.

 

[Mr Positive]

Ah yes, one of the annual "skeptics vs. apologist" offseason threads, the Arcobello themed one to boot. What a mess that turned out to be

Gotta feel bad for the apologists at this point though. They've spent the 10 years getting humiliated in these predictive threads for an organization that consistently manages to underperform against even the lowest of expectations.

those who supported Arco were not apologists but were just trying to give the guy a little support since he was the center we were going with. Most arguments centered around Gagner vs Arco, so I don't see the issue there since Gagner would have fared no better than Arco based on his previous time here. He's doing a bit better in Arizona, but that team has better defensive support and lacks some puck skills that Gagner brings. We have a lot of Gagner, ie good puck skills but not much ability away from the puck.

So yeah I was an Arco supporter, but I have no problem with anything I wrote in the least. I wanted a veteran center for more certainty. Arco was a risk considering he needed to improve his offense for him to be useful to us, and that risk flubbed. There are other risks that did pan out. I suppose you are a skeptic and so you must have hated everything about the Pouliot contract, and yet today it is the 'apologists' that are right about that one. In truth, your choice of the word 'apologist' exposes your bias.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Disagree about Nelson, he has not been perfect but the pp is better and most important the overall compete level and will to win is much better. I think MacT will be in a tough spot at the end of the year re Nelson. I don't think mact likes him all that much but if the oilers keep winning...

The compete level is higher but still far below actual NHL teams. The Blues basically had them by a string and they were never in that game.

The job is Nelson's regardless of the Oilers record at the end of the year. So another year in the basement awaits us.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

The compete level is higher but still far below actual NHL teams. The Blues basically had them by a string and they were never in that game.

The job is Nelson's regardless of the Oilers record at the end of the year. So another year in the basement awaits us.

Yes because the difference between Nelson and one of the many great nhl coaches lying in the waits will take us from basement to playoffs.

Being real though, the team I'd playing at the level it should of all year, what it is showing however is that we still have glaring holes. We aren't bad enough to be where we are ready and if we had Nelson for a full year we would be a few places higher, still not playoffs.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Yes because the difference between Nelson and one of the many great nhl coaches lying in the waits will take us from basement to playoffs.

Being real though, the team I'd playing at the level it should of all year, what it is showing however is that we still have glaring holes. We aren't bad enough to be where we are ready and if we had Nelson for a full year we would be a few places higher, still not playoffs.

The problem with the Oilers and I've mentioned this many times is the promotion and acquisition of people not ready for the position they're put in.

Lowe was not ready to be POHO, MacT was not ready to be GM and Eakins was not ready to be coach.

Nelson is better than Eakins there's no question but that's a pretty shallow comparison and Nelson shouldn't be held to that standard. Nelson would be better served going to a veteran team that simply needs a new face behind the bench than a team that suffered for the better part of the decade and hasn't approached the playoffs once in 5 years.

I just don't get why the Oilers couldn't go out and hire an experienced NHL coach. Look at the Jets and Maurice. The Jets as a whole are a mediocre team at best and they're ripping things up right now.

This team continues to make the same mistakes when the answer is right in front of them.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

The problem with the Oilers and I've mentioned this many times is the promotion and acquisition of people not ready for the position they're put in.

Lowe was not ready to be POHO, MacT was not ready to be GM and Eakins was not ready to be coach.

Nelson is better than Eakins there's no question but that's a pretty shallow comparison and Nelson shouldn't be held to that standard. Nelson would be better served going to a veteran team that simply needs a new face behind the bench than a team that suffered for the better part of the decade and hasn't approached the playoffs once in 5 years.

I just don't get why the Oilers couldn't go out and hire an experienced NHL coach. Look at the Jets and Maurice. The Jets as a whole are a mediocre team at best and they're ripping things up right now.

This team continues to make the same mistakes when the answer is right in front of them.

The Jets were also Mediocre for the first year with Maurice. Things can take time.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The Jets were also Mediocre for the first year with Maurice. Things can take time.

Yes they can, but this team has had all the time in the world. They continue to put people with no experience into important positions.

The Oilers really should've begun coach hunting just before Eakins was turfed and hired someone to instill systems so that they'd be ready for next year.

Either Nelson is going to be the full-time coach (Which given the Oilers track record is extremely likely) or they're going to finally do the right thing when it's too late.

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

Yes they can, but this team has had all the time in the world. They continue to put people with no experience into important positions.

The Oilers really should've begun coach hunting just before Eakins was turfed and hired someone to instill systems so that they'd be ready for next year.

Either Nelson is going to be the full-time coach (Which given the Oilers track record is extremely likely) or they're going to finally do the right thing when it's too late.

It all depends on how well Nelson does. Nelson had the track record to succeed and is proven to be a good coach. Eakins was hired more on personality then anything.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

It all depends on how well Nelson does. Nelson had the track record to succeed and is proven to be a good coach. Eakins was hired more on personality then anything.

I don't doubt that Nelson can be a good coach, he's just simply not what the Oilers need right now.

 

[harpoon]

I don't doubt that Nelson can be a good coach, he's just simply not what the Oilers need right now.

With all due respect I have no idea how you can say that. Do you know what the Oilers need right now?

Nelson deserves a chance. Its possible that the Oilers may have had a diamond sitting at their feet the whole time and never bothered to give it a look.

I know its fashionable to complain about coaching in Edmonton, but how about we wait until Nelson actually does something worth complaining about before we throw him out with the bathwater.

Its my humble opinion that he's accomplished more in a month than any other coach we've had since Renney.

Give him a chance GK.